Fused King Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 @Ronnie. I completely agree with you. I would also love the mystery to return to a Zelda game, and more non-linearity. From that perspective, really, the original Legend of Zelda had a lot of things going for it, and I'd like some of those 'where the fuck do I go, what the fuck should I do?' to return. In a gentle manner though, for too little handholding will unleash a can o' frustration. The balance between too much and too little handholding is really hard to master, but I believe NINTENDO has done it in previous Zelda games, so they are capable of doing so. Come to think of it, has anyone played Skyward Sword on Hero-mode yet? Is it just harder damage-wise? NINTENDO should just look at EVERY Zelda game from the past (not the CDi ones), implement the good/awesome/magical into the next iteration, and pour new and fresh ideas over it aswell. In that sense, I wouldn't really say that Skyward Sword is the best accumulation of '25 Years of Zelda', but I don't think it tried to do that, despite the 25th Anniversary Logo in it.
Beverage Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) OHHHhhhhh! So I see that we ARE on the bloody same rough page, @Ronnie. I also more or less fully agree with you. I guess my only confusion is why you get SO defensive over simply hearing "After all these years, the next Zelda, for the very first time, needs to have magificent visuals and make super impressive use of the epic graphical power that'll be available - as this would surely increase the OVERALL experience of the game" and translating it as "Good visuals will make any game awesome" and sounding very much like you're suggesting that good visuals has no value whatsoever? I'd also like to add that, viewing this strategy game as an art, I'd love if more difficult and creative puzzles made it in the next time round. Though I understand the challenge of 'also' making it not too hard for other audiences. Edited February 6, 2012 by Beverage
Grazza Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 That was a genius post, @Ronnie. I can't believe we disagreed so much about the game. You make a really good point about getting swept away. Skyward Sword had some moments that were absolutely brilliant, like the 4th dungeon and its boss. I remember I was high as a kite for an hour and a half after playing that bit. I wasn't exaggerating at all. And yet, I truly believe the overall game these moments are framed in was severely misguided. I hate to say that, as I'd rather sit there enjoying Zelda games than criticising them, but something just didn't feel right. But hey, Skyward Sword did fix a lot of problems. Skyloft, the enemies and the NPCs show they deeply understood which way Zelda needed to be pointed. But overall I had this nagging feeling that it was improvement-by-numbers. I'm quite convinced that next time there's a truly brilliant, AAA, 10/10 Zelda game it'll be because they simply had a great idea. It may be imperfect, but masterpieces can be. I just don't think they can have any fundamental flaws.
FalcoLombardi Posted February 12, 2012 Posted February 12, 2012 Finally got to play again after a month and a half hiatus. How many times must I fight The Imprisoned?! Jeez. Now I'm collecting music notes. Not enjoying that too much.
Jav_NE Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 Finally got to play again after a month and a half hiatus. How many times must I fight The Imprisoned?! Jeez. Now I'm collecting music notes. Not enjoying that too much. My two least enjoyable parts of the whole game to be honest.
Ronnie Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 Why is it that the music 'Fi's Goodbye' is not only beautiful, but the ONLY memorable music in the entire game? At least IMO. After all the hype over orchestrated music in the game, the soundtrack is so bland and generic
daftada Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 The lack of orchestrated music was one of my biggest disappointments with SS, along with the day/night cycle disappearing. The few orchestrated tunes were welcome additions but like you say Ronnie, they weren't particularly memorable like, for instance, mario galaxy's inspirational tracks. The only one I remember is the skylift tune, partly because I heard it so often but also because for some reason the latter, quieter half reminded me of John William's superman score. I liked the game more as it went on, with imo some of the best-designed (but not necessarily most memorable) dungeons in the series, and some amazing bosses.
Sméagol Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Yeah, I hated the improsned as well. Damn annoying, and there’s a timelimit as well! Second is the hardest I think, it’s the last boss in the boss run (at least for me it is, I don’t know if the order varies much? Only once I’ve seen a slight different order in bosses). After some tries, I learned a few tricks though. When he starts climbing the wall, you can save a bomb, and get a relatively easy way to stun him, you have to windsail your way to the cliff he’s climbing, then hit his fingernails, as they are a lot easier to destroy than his toenails (and then he falls down). Speaking about the bossrun, did it almost on my first attempt, but lost the last battle.. Indeed, to the Imprisoned. It was the first time I saw him crash the temple as well, as I defeated him in the normal encounters on the first attempt. Then triend again, and won! Only to be very disappointed, I thought somehow all the prizes would accumulate, and I’m only interested in the shield and the heartpiece obviously. Yeah, lots of Rupees, but nothing to spend it on at that point, I bought everything in Beedle’s shop (I also missed the discount Beedle gives you). Anyway, so I try the boss run a few times more, I think I died once in the first battle, I always choose the final Imprisoned fight to start with. After each attempt at the bossrun, I seemed to be getting worse and worse at those battles! Anyway, I finally got the shield in the end, now it’s just the heartpiece I need, then I’m done with the bossrun. Luckily the heartpiece is easily obtained. The bossrun would be more fun without the Improsoned battles.
Jav_NE Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Yeah, I hated the improsned as well. Damn annoying, and there’s a timelimit as well! Second is the hardest I think, it’s the last boss in the boss run (at least for me it is, I don’t know if the order varies much? Only once I’ve seen a slight different order in bosses). After some tries, I learned a few tricks though. When he starts climbing the wall, you can save a bomb, and get a relatively easy way to stun him, you have to windsail your way to the cliff he’s climbing, then hit his fingernails, as they are a lot easier to destroy than his toenails (and then he falls down). Speaking about the bossrun, did it almost on my first attempt, but lost the last battle.. Indeed, to the Imprisoned. It was the first time I saw him crash the temple as well, as I defeated him in the normal encounters on the first attempt. Then triend again, and won! Only to be very disappointed, I thought somehow all the prizes would accumulate, and I’m only interested in the shield and the heartpiece obviously. Yeah, lots of Rupees, but nothing to spend it on at that point, I bought everything in Beedle’s shop (I also missed the discount Beedle gives you). Anyway, so I try the boss run a few times more, I think I died once in the first battle, I always choose the final Imprisoned fight to start with. After each attempt at the bossrun, I seemed to be getting worse and worse at those battles! Anyway, I finally got the shield in the end, now it’s just the heartpiece I need, then I’m done with the bossrun. Luckily the heartpiece is easily obtained. The bossrun would be more fun without the Improsoned battles. If i remember rightly, i didn't even bother with his toe/fingernails. I just sail up to the level above him, keep close, wait for a bomb, blast him and jump on his head for the slash. Rinse and repeat. I found that i wasted too much time, and got hit too much when i was on his level trying to hit his feet etc. The hardest boss fight for me is the one with all the arms you have to whip off. I love it though, it's an amazing boss!
Ronnie Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 If i remember rightly, i didn't even bother with his toe/fingernails. I just sail up to the level above him, keep close, wait for a bomb, blast him and jump on his head for the slash. Rinse and repeat. I found that i wasted too much time, and got hit too much when i was on his level trying to hit his feet etc. WHAT! I didn't know you could do that! I just assumed getting his toes was the only way to beat him
nekunando Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 WHAT! I didn't know you could do that! I just assumed getting his toes was the only way to beat him In all honesty, I never even thought of going for the toes at the beginning I immediately ascended the spiral and dropped down onto The Imprisoned.. but maybe that was my recent experience of Shadow of the Colossus coming into play I never once went for his toes the entire game..
Ronnie Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I just assumed with the short cutscenes of them growing back, the game expected you to go for the toes? What happens when you land on top of the thing, do you just sword swipe the sword in its forehead three times?
Jav_NE Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I just assumed with the short cutscenes of them growing back, the game expected you to go for the toes? What happens when you land on top of the thing, do you just sword swipe the sword in its forehead three times? I think the toes are just a way of slowing it down - but it doesn't pay off with the time it takes to achieve. Bad design really. Getting on his head is the same as always, he will be stunned by the bomb blast so you can slash the spike all the way in his head, after which he throws you off for the next round.
Grazza Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 In all honesty, I never even thought of going for the toes at the beginning I immediately ascended the spiral and dropped down onto The Imprisoned.. but maybe that was my recent experience of Shadow of the Colossus coming into play I never once went for his toes the entire game.. Hmm, that's odd. I thought you had to attack the toes, at least the first time you fight him, as he doesn't have hands at that point. So, it's possible to land on top of him before he's fallen over? I must try that! For the record, I thought the hardest bosses were Ghirahim and Demise. The Imprisoned didn't cause me much trouble during the main game, but he was one of those bosses you could fail at if you panicked, and so could be frustrating in the Boss Run. Didn't find Koloktos hard at all, even though he has the most clout. Really liked that one.
Jav_NE Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Hmm, that's odd. I thought you had to attack the toes, at least the first time you fight him, as he doesn't have hands at that point. So, it's possible to land on top of him before he's fallen over? I must try that! That's a good point, i don't know if it works on the first encounter without the help of Groose. He is so slow on that one though, getting the toes isn't so bad.
Burny Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 That's a good point, i don't know if it works on the first encounter without the help of Groose. He is so slow on that one though, getting the toes isn't so bad. The speed in both of the later fights isn't that much of an issue. It's the shockwaves around his feet when he walks.
FalcoLombardi Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I tried jumping on his head the last two times, but was never able to land on it. Weird.
Grazza Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I tried jumping on his head the last two times, but was never able to land on it. Weird. Is that from Groose's machine or the whirlwinds? If it's the former, you have to pull the cannon back so that the translucent circle is visible on The Imprisoned, otherwise you overshoot it. However, I'm guessing you know that and have completed the game. Must give this whirlwind method a go.
LostOverThere Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Why is it that the music 'Fi's Goodbye' is not only beautiful, but the ONLY memorable music in the entire game? At least IMO. After all the hype over orchestrated music in the game, the soundtrack is so bland and generic You know, I originally thought this as well, but then I went back and listened to the soundtrack and I love it. The actual area music (Faron Woods, etc.), I believe, is intentionally understated. It's mixed so the music is just background music. Meanwhile, the story elements all have some really strong music. The Staff Roll is still my favourite piece though.
Ronnie Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 An excellent read: Zelda just keeps getting worse but it isn't beyond saving
Magnus Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Um, not particularly? If you want Demon's Souls, play Demon's Souls.
killer kirby Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 The only change Zelda needs is developers. Give the game to either Koizumi's team or Monolith. Those 2 teams would make a beast out of a new Zelda. Aonuma team are drained out, they need to get away from Zelda and go for something new (A new IP perhaps) But Aonuma has his hands very tight on the Zelda series, not wanting to let anyone share.
Grazza Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 That was a fantastic article, thanks @Ronnie. Not that I agreed with all of it - you have to be very careful with difficulty, for instance. If I think back to fighting the Spider Guardian in Metroid Prime 2 on the GameCube, that was frustrating, not fun. I agree with Aonuma that The Legend of Zelda on NES is too difficult (even though I have completed it). Also, I consider it somewhat extreme to say the series has been going downhill since A Link to the Past. I can't say I thought there were any significant problems with LttP, Ocarina, Majora or Wind Waker. No, I only consider the series to have been a bit "off" since Twilight Princess, and I suspect there is something of a consensus on that. Nonetheless, it was a very deep, perceptive article and I do agree with much of it. I could write pages and pages myself about this series, but I'll just say for now that I think the next time there is truly a magnificent Zelda, it will be because someone had a very clear vision.
Ronnie Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 He makes too many good points (IMO) to go into, but the main point of the article is that exploration and the concept of a living and breathing open-ended world has never been the same since ALTTP, and the way everything is neatly laid out perfectly for your progression through the game goes against what originally made LOZ and Zelda II such hits. It's hard to disagree with that. Skyward Sword couldn't be any more guilty of this. Ditto the obsession with having Link as the saviour of each and every area in the overworld, or him running people's errands and possibly even an over-reliance on puzzles. I also enjoyed it because it basically made the point that who cares about HD visuals or control schemes, the issues plaguing Zelda are a lot more deep rooted than that. The basics need a huge shake-up.
EEVILMURRAY Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 I can't read it all in time but I'm going to get to the end when I get back from work. One point of note: "One of the greatest Zelda moments occurs when he ‘wakes' the drowned castle and must fight hordes of Moblins and Darknuts simultaneously." By waiting til the A flashes at the top of the screen and it does all the work for you. Seriously, I never knew how people could fist such a piss-easy battle system.
Recommended Posts