Epic fail Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 As long as we never see a Links crossbow training again i dont care what its like
Jonnas Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 I'd still argue that it's because you compare it to the other Zelda's (which is natural, of course). If you look at TP by itself, it's still a truly great game. True, my points in that post were only noticed because of past Zelda experiences, but the lack of side-quests would still get to me, to be honest. That's also the main reason Starfox Adventures disappointed me.
Ronnie Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 I'd still argue that it's because you compare it to the other Zelda's (which is natural, of course). If you look at TP by itself, it's still a truly great game. Absolutely, take TP by itself, it's a wonderful game. Compared to the other 3D Zeldas though, it's not as good. At least in my (and apparently the majority of people's) opinion. TP also gets worse as the game goes along. The first half is far better than the second I thought. The last few dungeons and ending just felt rushed to me. And sidequests wise, it was the weakest, well apart from OOT.
Fierce_LiNk Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 I'd still argue that it's because you compare it to the other Zelda's (which is natural, of course). If you look at TP by itself, it's still a truly great game. I think what many people probably overlook is that for new Wii owners this could have been the first Zelda that they have played. I can definitely say that is the case for a few of my friends. So, to them, they're seeing this Universe for the first time. I would love to have played Twilight Princess without ever playing another game before it, just to see what my thoughts would have been. For the new generation, this is "their Ocarina of Time." Lucky buggers.
... Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) Maybe in content but a single area in Zelda has more charm and personality than the whole of Cyrodiil. I disagree. I love Zelda, but the Hyrule from TP looks plastic in comparison to Cyrodiil. I understand they are a generation apart, though, just saying. In Hyrule there's nothing to discover. You basically arrive at a new section of Hyrule Field and it's just a vast area with nothing to it. In Cyrodill you'll be walking in the wild and suddenly arrive at a farm or a small group of huts, or some thieves' campsite, or a cave or a ruin or a fort, or a shrine at which you can pray to rid yourself of negative spells, etc. Just walking in the middle of the forrests and then you suddenly spot a hut way over in the distance. You arrive there and go inside and there's people living there, or if empty, there's background story on people who lived there and items left behind. Each of the 7 major cities in Cyrodiil is different from the next and they all have personality, different architectures and peoples. You can say that the hundreds of caves and dungeons all look alike, and I agree. Those lack personality. In that department, it's no Zelda. But Cyrodiil itself is an amazing piece of open world design with snowy mountains to the north, marshes to the south, yellow plains to the west, lakes, rivers, ponds, etc, and it feels totally magical and alive. Cyrodiil lives without you. There are characters wandering the land and they can die at any moment, without your influence. You will just happen upon them (or not) and find them either alive or dead. I've seen people diss Oblivion's world because "it just looks like ordinary reality and there's nothing special about that". I just don't agree. Oblivion felt really magical to me. Zelda was great in Ocarina of Time's day, I played that game to death in 1998/9 and I still play it (last time I did I think was in 2006 or 2007), it's part of my life and I'm grateful for it. It was also great in Wind Waker's day. But TP just feels bland. Hyrule Castle Town was the biggest disapointment to me. I'd seen pictures and it looked so alive with so many people. When I arrived there, they were all just scenery! You can interact with only a handful of people, yet you see dozens of them walking around, with no purpose other than scenery, eye candy. If you want an example of graphics over gameplay, look no further than TP's towns. They look well populated and have many people for you to look at, but you can't interact with most of them. Edited December 10, 2009 by ...
Ronnie Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 I'd agree with TP feeling bland. Ditto your arguments on castle town. Looked stunning, big disappointment.
killer kirby Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 Compared to the other 3D Zeldas though, it's not as good. At least in my (and apparently the majority of people's) opinion. Majority as in the majority of the 5% of people who own the game and go onto forums like this one and talking about games? TP also gets worse as the game goes along. The first half is far better than the second I thought. The last few dungeons and ending just felt rushed to me. And sidequests wise, it was the weakest, well apart from OOT. *Sigh* The hate for TP is so sad in my eyes, how so many people can spit on a game that is so well made, what are people expecting? More side quests? The moment Nintendo do that and ignore the main story they will get beaten down by fans saying there is no main quest. Do main quest as focus like TP did...WHERE ARE MY SIDE QUESTS!!!! Yeah, I need to stay out of Zelda forums and threads, it's like reading a book of Twilight, every time I read, my IQ drops.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 I don't hate TP. Quite the opposite, in fact. It holds to many fond and wonderful memories of getting the Wii and playing it through the Christmas holiday. Many things in the game are brilliant: The story is really, really good (as fresh and engaging as OoT and MM, even), the dungeons are (as always) superb, the characters are memorable, and the music is amazing (even if it isn't orchestraed). I think what let me down a little is that the world, albeit huge, didn't feel as much alive as OoT's and MM's worlds. The world was larger, but there was not more in it. ...'s post that I thanked above sums up very well the way I feel about TP's world. So that's my point. I'm not critical of TP, I love it. But we've grown so accustomed to Zelda games being amazing that we forget to look at the amazing things and only look at the points where the game didn't quite live up to our expectations. In essence, we're spoiled rotten when it comes to Zelda games.
Shino Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 text And yet they managed to make it look so bland and lifeless. They tried so much to the point the game hurts it self when the glitches start popping up and the barriers they disguised so well become evident. And I won't compare Zelda to Oblivion, that's just stupid as they're meant to be completely different, however the world they're in, I couldn't give two shits about the procedurally generated Cyrodill or its cloned npcs, compared to the empty and yet more interesting land of Hyrule. Basically its quantity vs quality.
Patch Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 So that's my point. I'm not critical of TP, I love it. But we've grown so accustomed to Zelda games being amazing that we forget to look at the amazing things and only look at the points where the game didn't quite live up to our expectations. In essence, we're spoiled rotten when it comes to Zelda games. So true. It does make me wish I could forget all past experiences of Zelda when playing a new one, as I'm almost constantly comparing them. One example: Every time I enter a new Zelda dungeon, I can't stop myself wondering 'Is this going to be as challenging as OOT's Water Temple?'. And when I finish a dungeon, I can't stop myself thinking 'That wasn't as challenging as OOT's Water Temple'!* Using it as a benchmark only sets me up for (slight) disappointment. I'm pretty sure that even if a new dungeon *was* more challenging than the Water Temple, my brain wouldn't register it; the rose-tinted glasses are too deeply fused into my temples. *I know a lot of people hated the Water Temple, but I loved it.
Grazza Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 I suppose what I really want from a Zelda game, above all else, is the feeling that it's better than the previous ones. Zelda is a byword for "best game of its type ever", so yes, that's a massive expectation to put on a game, but Nintendo have done it before (every generation apart from this one) and I hope they can do it again. And I for one do not hate Twilight Princess. It's a great game in its own right and has a beautiful atmosphere in many parts (Lake Hylia, Hyrule Field), but I'd rate it as the 4th best 3D Zelda, and that in itself has to be slightly disappointing. Let's hope we get some of the better character designs back for the next one. The Moblins in Wind Waker were the best ever, yet they weren't even in Twilight Princess (the masked ones are Bulblins, the slack-jawed ones are Bokoblins). However, there is a brief glimpse of one in the legendary 2004 trailer. It'd also be nice to see Octoroks, Wind Waker's version of Wizzrobes, Iron Knuckles and Dodongos more like the N64 ones. *I know a lot of people hated the Water Temple, but I loved it. It's a great design, because it's not actually that hard (apart from the floor you had to destroy - that was almost impossible to work out yourself). The Lakebed Temple probably overdid it though, and was arduous.
Jonnas Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 And I for one do not hate Twilight Princess. It's a great game in its own right and has a beautiful atmosphere in many parts (Lake Hylia, Hyrule Field), but I'd rate it as the 4th best 3D Zelda, and that in itself has to be slightly disappointing. Considering there were precisely four 3D Zeldas... The hate for TP is so sad in my eyes, how so many people can spit on a game that is so well made, what are people expecting? More side quests? The moment Nintendo do that and ignore the main story they will get beaten down by fans saying there is no main quest. Do main quest as focus like TP did...WHERE ARE MY SIDE QUESTS!!!! Yeah, I need to stay out of Zelda forums and threads, it's like reading a book of Twilight, every time I read, my IQ drops. They don't have to sacrifice one over another. OoT, WW and MM were all good in both areas. And the only game I've ever heard fans complain about the main quest while ignoring the great sidequests was Phantom Hourglass (because of that temple everyone else seems to hate). And to a lesser extent, the triforce hunt in WW.
Ronnie Posted December 10, 2009 Posted December 10, 2009 Majority as in the majority of the 5% of people who own the game and go onto forums like this one and talking about games? *Sigh* The hate for TP is so sad in my eyes, how so many people can spit on a game that is so well made, what are people expecting? More side quests? The moment Nintendo do that and ignore the main story they will get beaten down by fans saying there is no main quest. Do main quest as focus like TP did...WHERE ARE MY SIDE QUESTS!!!! Yeah, I need to stay out of Zelda forums and threads, it's like reading a book of Twilight, every time I read, my IQ drops. Siiiiigh. You really need to stop being so wound up by people not liking TP as much as the other 3D Zeldas. Just chill-out. The hate for TP is so sad in my eyes - again, get over it. No one hates it. No one suggested they hated it, or even hinted at the notion of hating it. Most in actual fact, loved it. I know I did. Just not as much as MM or OOT, or WW.
Emasher Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 Text This was basically what I've been saying for a long time. While I don't want Zelda to completely become like the Bethesda RPGs, there are some things, like the scale, and amount of detail and stuff to do in the worlds, that EAD 3 really should pay attention to.I'd just like to feel a bit more overwhelmed by Hyrule than I have for the past few generations. TP's hyrule was big and had some great stuff in it, but it wasn't vast like the Capitol Wasteland, ect.
ClassicGamer Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 People just need some more time to understand why it's good. Most people didn't like The Adventure of Link and Majora's Mask on launch and shortly after. Now, about everybody loves these games. Something else: What about Links Crosbow advnture? I haven't played it for starters.... I can understand that it's not a real adventure. What is that like? 10 sets of shooting gallery's? That would not be worth it money. Point is, is this bad because it's a spin-off, or it is bad because it is simply bad and too short for anything with Link or Zelda?
Retro_Link Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) This was basically what I've been saying for a long time. While I don't want Zelda to completely become like the Bethesda RPGs, there are some things, like the scale, and amount of detail and stuff to do in the worlds, that EAD 3 really should pay attention to.I'd just like to feel a bit more overwhelmed by Hyrule than I have for the past few generations. TP's hyrule was big and had some great stuff in it, but it wasn't vast like the Capitol Wasteland, ect.Yeah the next version of Hyrule needs to be FAR less segregated. You shouldn't have to go through numerous 'doorways' (fade out screens) to reach areas anymore, or have to be fired to them via cannon. I think a lot of people were expecting a vast sprawling, go anywhere, do anything 'want to climb to the top of a far off hill, well you can!' landscape with TP and it's just not what we got. Whilst the devided/themed overworld was perfect for OOT and MM (WW got away with it because it's a very different overworld), I don't think Nintendo can get away with it any more. Peoples expectations have changed as other games are providing much more living worlds and interactive landscapes. Hyrule needs to follow suit and merge together to form the ultimate kingdom for explanation! Heck Nintendo, just copy MiddleEarth! Edited December 11, 2009 by Retro_Link
killthenet Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) Totally disagree Retro. One of the things I love about Zelda is how they limit you from going to certain areas depending on what stage of the game you're at. Just think about in OOT when you had to get the bridge built/have Epona to cross in Guerudo Valley, or when you're completely powerless as a Deku Scrub in MM and all you can do is wander around the town for three days. Limitations are fine as long as they're logical within the plot. Who cares if peoples expectations have changed, this is Zelda and when it comes to Zelda, Eiji Anouma and Shigeru Miyamoto know best. Edited December 11, 2009 by killthenet
Retro_Link Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) ^ I didn't say they couldn't do that. You could totally have inaccessible areas that open up as you progress through the game, by building bridges to them etc... there'd be nothing more fun than having a vast new area of the overworld to explore, but it doesn't have to be just 'the desert' that open's up, but reconnecting a whole new area of Hyrule with new villages, caves, mountains, lakes to explore, and allowing you to carry on with side quests that required people in this new area etc... Or make it the forest area that opens up, but at least give us some woodland to explore seperate to that. I'd love to be riding my horse through a small area of woodland, only to come to a broken bridge and see a huge expanse of forest just ready to explore on the other side. Edited December 11, 2009 by Retro_Link
Shino Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 Oh man, when they finally show something of the game, the reactions here will be amazing to watch...
Fused King Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 Oh man, when they finally show something of the game, the reactions here will be amazing to watch... I know, it might just bring some fine comedy to the threads :p
mcj metroid Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 I remember cel-shaded link on other forums. reactions back then were comical
Ronnie Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 I'm expecting a HUGE amount of backlash when it's unveiled at E3. As in far more than when Wind Waker was first shown.
Grazza Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 I'm expecting a HUGE amount of backlash when it's unveiled at E3. As in far more than when Wind Waker was first shown. I wonder if people might treat it like the DS games. People don't necessarily love Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, but there is no real backlash against them either - no disappointment. I still say that Twilight Princess was uniquely disappointing because of the way it was handled - hyped up since 2004 as this amazing GameCube game, then delayed and altered until it really wasn't a great deal like the game people expected. Fans aren't that unreasonable, and can accept a sub-par game or two, as long as there's not the manipulation that was present with TP. Even if Zelda Wii turns out to be rubbish, I don't think I'd be annoyed, because in all honesty, the Wii is the Wii and I accept it for what it is. I don't get excited about Wii or DS games like I did the GameCube - enjoy them, yes, but not get excited. The only real disappointment would be that we've waited ages for it and it would be a shame to "waste" Zelda for a generation. Right, back to Spirit Tracks!
... Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 I don't hate TP either. I spent somewhere around 80 hours on it, which is roughly the same time I spent on Fallout 3. And I loved OoT at first sight, and I also loved MM at first sight. As for WW, before playing it I thought that the screens were goofy and that Link looked bad, but when I played it, I loved it even before hitting start, just listening to the music as the background story was told. All those 3 games are superior in feel to TP in my opinion.
Retro_Link Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 It's a shame Nintendo is effectively a generation behind in terms of specs now, because I'm not entirely sure the Wii is remotely possible of the 'next gen' Zelda we are all wanting at this point. We're kind of all wanting our 360/PS3 equivalent of Zelda now, because as a series it's one that's always pushed the hardware, it draws you in with those breathtaking visuals, we'd love dynamic weather and seasons, countless interactive NPC's to really bring Hyrule to life... but maybe realistically that's another 5 years off for Nintendo? However, at least Nintendo seem to realise the series needs a shake up, so hopefully this will be something new and refreshing and can deliver something like Wind Waker did to wow us in a different way, instead of just being a 1/2 a step forward.
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