Grazza Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The problem with their way of thinking though is that they assume that a Zelda game doesn't start until you get to the first dungeon; and that's just patently false. What's great about Twilight Princess and (especially) Skyward Sword's intro is that they do a great job of introducing the game and its mechanics/story through simply showcasing the world and allowing you to explore the first couple of areas/talking to NPCs/carrying out tasks on your own - giving you a feel for all the different non dungeon mechanics that the game has to offer (indeed, half the point of Skyward Sword was to take the emphasis away from the dungeons and bring more of those elements out into the overworld environments themselves) The problem is, could you really call the early sections of Twilight Princess "gameplay"? Everyone agrees (presumably) that Link to the Past and Link's Awakening have great pacing. They give you a sword or shield immediately and from then on, every moment is gameplay - not just the first dungeon/castle (or wherever you have to go), but the journey there. In those 2D games, every button press made something happen. With the 3D games though, so much time is spent on tutorials and story set-up (I don't actually have a problem with help/hints), that newcomers could be forgiven for thinking Zelda gameplay = walking round a town, talking to people and pressing the "A" button. In fact, you could even argue their lack of immediacy is less good for casual players, as they don't see the results of their actions or any real "gameplay". I genuinely knew people who saw Twilight Princess as a story to play through, breaking it up by certain scenes (which they were stuck on) like the fishing or visits to the castle rather than the dungeons/overworld. Zelda games have always had a story - in fact, I'd argue, LttP and LA are better than the NES games partly because they have more story - but now, especially with TP and Skyward Sword, it's actually like you're playing through a story scene-by-scene. To me, that's too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero-of-Time Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Plus OoT's 1st "dungeon" is just a glorified tutorial anyway, so the first "real" dungeon you go to in that game is Dodongo's Cavern - which you dont get to for at least an hour, so nerr! :p Just about every dungeon in Zelda is a tutorial, as you get a new item, learn how to use it and beat boss with said item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnas Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just about every dungeon in Zelda is a tutorial, as you get a new item, learn how to use it and beat boss with said item. Dude, let's not start being pedantic, here. The Deku Tree is the first proper hurdle in the game, it's here that Navi bothers you with things such as diving and pushing blocks for the first time, not to mention enemies where "swinging your sword wildly" is not a proper strategy. Hell, you don't even need to use the slingshot on Gohma, nor is it a central part of the dungeon's design, so even your statement just now doesn't hold much water in the Deku Tree. In other games, this first hurdle isn't usually a dungeon (not one with item&boss, anyway), but OoT happens to make it a dungeon. That doesn't mean OoT has a more sudden start than, say, Link's Awakening (where you have to navigate the forest before entering the first dungeon), it just means it combined two steps into one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero-of-Time Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Dude, let's not start being pedantic, here. The Deku Tree is the first proper hurdle in the game, it's here that Navi bothers you with things such as diving and pushing blocks for the first time, not to mention enemies where "swinging your sword wildly" is not a proper strategy. Hell, you don't even need to use the slingshot on Gohma, nor is it a central part of the dungeon's design, so even your statement just now doesn't hold much water in the Deku Tree. How else do you stun her then? Deku nuts? It's a lot harder to use Deku nuts in that fight than to just shoot her in the eye and then attack her with the sword. At the end of the day i'm just not buying this whole tutorial dungeon thing, as it has never once felt like that to me and it just felt like a normal dungeon. I guess its a case of agreeing to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Agree that it didn't feel like a tutorial dungeon, and even if it did, who cares it was still action packed and you were thrown in at the deep end more or less. Oh and I've always just used Deku nuts on Gohma. Never thought to use the slingshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero-of-Time Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Agree that it didn't feel like a tutorial dungeon, and even if it did, who cares it was still action packed and you were thrown in at the deep end more or less. Oh and I've always just used Deku nuts on Gohma. Never thought to use the slingshot Really? Haha that's awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Skyward Sword does a better job of showing that there's more to the series than just dungeons. Surely if any games does that then it's MM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcubed Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Surely if any games does that then it's MM? True. That does a fantastic job at that too; and think how long it takes to get to the first dungeon in that game! (Going by that kind of logic that those guys hold to be truth, MM's tutorial doesn't stop until about 3-4 hours in - hell there isn't even any real combat for around 2 hours!) SS' intro isn't that dissimilar from MM's really in terms of tutorial design, it's just that MM's is much longer; and you don't really see people complaining about MM being overly handholdy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero-of-Time Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Surely if any games does that then it's MM? Indeed. The world outside of the dungeons was fantastic and I would like Nintendo to try this formula again, with lots of things to do and places to visit and fewer dungeons to conquer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_Link Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 @Ronnie Never used Deku Nuts on Gohma! The Fuck... you're doing it wrong! :p Shooting her down from the ceiling (that's right isn't it?) is fun! Also I don't consider the Deku Tree a tutorial. Don't think I ever have, but you could easily die in that place with only 3 hearts, so always seen it as a proper temple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Also a lot of you keep talking about tutorials and pacing as if the best thing to do is to get into a dungeon ASAP with no instruction BECAUSE INSTRUCTIONS ARE FOR WIMPS!!! Personally I think you're all talking rubbish. Pacing should be slow, but not feel restricted, and you should be able to learn as you go along, with very little "Ok it's time to learn how to do this" one after the other. MM is the best Zelda game. You don't feel like there's much tutorial, and you can pick up the game as it goes along. The pacing is slow, it's ages until you get a sword, and even longer until you really need to use it, but it doesn't feel slow. You're constantly exploring the environment, interacting with the people of the town, and engrossed in the story. You aren't sat there thinking, "god this is slow, I can't wait 'til I get a sword. Imma beat up so many bad guys." You're all acting as if you just want Zelda to be another generic hack'n'slash dungeon crawler, but that's completely missing the point of Zelda. Edited October 15, 2012 by MoogleViper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Oh wait, maybe I did shoot her down from the ceiling, but then don't you have to use Deku nuts to stun her? If you don't then then I waited for her to drop, THEN stunned. As for tutorial dungeons and how long it takes to get into the action, I think that's way down the list of priorities of gaming elements to 'fix' for the next Zelda. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_Link Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hmm I can't really remember the boss fight now. I thought you shot her down from the ceiling and she lands in a crumpled heap and then you hit her eye with the sword. Or maybe she walks towards you and that's when you aim at her eye/or Z-target her eye with the slingshot. *How can I not remember this all time classic boss fight?!* :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 You can use Deku Nuts when she's on the ground or hit her with the Slingshot. Deku Nut is more effective since you don't have to wait for her to point out her weak spot. Shoot her when she's on the ceiling and she'll drop down and be stunned. Been listening to the ending song recently. Shame the new music in the rest of the game wasn't this good. Although I think the ending includes themes found in the game, but they sound so much better. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnas Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 You can use Deku Nuts when she's on the ground or hit her with the Slingshot. Deku Nut is more effective since you don't have to wait for her to point out her weak spot. Shoot her when she's on the ceiling and she'll drop down and be stunned. This, basically. I'm wondering how so few knew the Deku Nuts were effective. The Deku Scrub by the door outright tells you before the fight (and you do need to hear him to advance). I didn't even know slingshotting her in the ceiling worked until much later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_Link Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I've never once thought to use Deku Nuts alone... but saying that I'm not sure I've ever used Deku Nuts alone in Ocarina of Time. Never felt the need to stun. I can't remember the seller, but I guess I just assumed he meant firing them wwas effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnas Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I've never once thought to use Deku Nuts alone... but saying that I'm not sure I've ever used Deku Nuts alone in Ocarina of Time. Never felt the need to stun. I can't remember the seller, but I guess I just assumed he meant firing them wwas effective. Actually, he just said she should be stunned. Deku Nuts do nothing but stun (the exact word is there in the description). Slingshots can stun a few enemies but that's because it's so weak. Also, it's main purpose is different, so I figured at the time, if it doesn't harm a Skulltula, it won't harm their Queen. This is a weird direction for this thread to go, I must admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcubed Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Speaking of beating Gohma in multiple ways... How did you guys beat Tentalus in Skyward Sword on your first play through? Did you guys know that you could just shoot him in the eye with the bow? (rather than hitting his energy balls back at him) There's also quite a few ways to beat Demise as well... (I did it by sheathing my sword - the one sword movement that he couldn't copy ) I'm also proud to admit that I figured out the quick way to beat The Imprisoned on my first encounter with him (my jaw literally dropped when I discovered that that trick actually worked! - thought for sure that the game would stop you from cheating him ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 so I figured at the time, if it doesn't harm a Skulltula, it won't harm their Queen. A Deku Seed in the eye probably stings quite a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnas Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 A Deku Seed in the eye probably stings quite a bit Well yeah, now I know that Did you guys know that you could just shoot him in the eye with the bow? (rather than hitting his energy balls back at him) Wait...You can redirect the energy balls back at him?! ... Wait, he has energy balls? I always wailed on him with the bow Ironically enough, I've gone from not considering the slingshot, to using the bow as my first instinct. I'm also proud to admit that I figured out the quick way to beat The Imprisoned on my first encounter with him (my jaw literally dropped when I discovered that that trick actually worked! - thought for sure that the game would stop you from cheating him ) Oh yeah, I found that by accident during the Thunder Dragon's trials. Indeed, the alternate way is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_Link Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Don't remember Tenatlus having energy balls. Just tentacles that come up through the floor and then later on snake tentacles. Was really annoying the first time I was fighting him because after the arrow to the eye to bring him down, I thought you had to cut all the tentacles that hang down. Took a while before I realised you could just run straight through them and it was the eye you had to carry on attacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Falcon Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hmm... I think he means Bilocyte - the thing you face on the back of Levias. Skyward Strikes also work but being slower and having a shorter range means you have to be up close and personal for it to work or it will dodge them. It's a good job they fixed that freeze glitch pronto or it seems we'd have a few unhappy gamers here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnas Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hmm... I think he means Bilocyte - the thing you face on the back of Levias. Skyward Strikes also work but being slower and having a shorter range means you have to be up close and personal for it to work or it will dodge them. It's a good job they fixed that freeze glitch pronto or it seems we'd have a few unhappy gamers here. Oh, that guy. The "energy ball" thing really was weird for Tentalus Well, I suppose I'm going to have to try all of those strategies when I replay the game eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcubed Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Hmm... I think he means Bilocyte - the thing you face on the back of Levias. Skyward Strikes also work but being slower and having a shorter range means you have to be up close and personal for it to work or it will dodge them. It's a good job they fixed that freeze glitch pronto or it seems we'd have a few unhappy gamers here. Whoops! You're right. Wrong one! BTW, just as an aside. I think that Faron Woods in Skyward Sword is my favourite overworld "area" music in all of Zelda history... I could happily listen to it forever Edited October 16, 2012 by Dcubed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokong Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Gotta say the lack of heart drops on Hero mode really does up the difficulty. Just reached Lanayru Mine and teh Earth Temple before that really kicked my ass. Especially the Lizaflos, you really gotta be spot on with your blocking and dodging cause you can't back away and look for some pots to break for hearts. Plus I didn't find a single seat inside the temple to rest and recharge hearts at. Used up the 2 potions I brought with me before I got to the boss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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