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navarre

By navarre
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Oxigen_Waste Newbie

Oxigen_Waste

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What the hell? Where is this formula? So you're telling me that there is a formula that determines what are factually the top 10 (and in order) anime series of all time? Surely you can see that you're just talking nonsense now?

 

I specified that it's not in order. Nor is it 10, it's whichever number it has to be, because there's a certain level in which it becomes pointless to further specify, it's not an exact science (nor is it a science per se). But yes, you can objectively and factually determine what are the top candidates in pretty much everything. Although excluding cinema, the lists are way too big, because there's just too much great books, paintings, music, whichever.

But yeah, there is a "formula" (paramaters) which determine a film's quality. The most important ones being the plot, the characters and the script. It's not an exact formula, but for a film to be truly masterful it must be a triumph in these 3 fields (unless we're dealing with documentaries, in which case, special rules apply). The ramifications of pertinence, importance, social relevance in these 3 elements are very important. The other more important fields are cinematography, photography, sonoplasty, the art direction and the performances (much like when reviewing games... the different "parts" of it). I mean... I don't really need to go on, do I, you get the point by now.

There was even a minor class about it in my former cinema school... Method for cinematic quality evaluation, if I translate it directly. If you're interested in what our study materials were, they were "Film Analysis: A Norton Reader" by R. L. Rutsky & Jeffrey Geiger and "Film Theory and Criticism" by Leo Braudy and Marshall Cohen.

 

These are issued by human beings...so it's not factual either. What films are great depends on the person...e.g. a person who loves horror films may think that a horror film is the best film ever. Also, lots of films in your 'top 10' would have loads of awards, so there's no way to say that one is better than the other.

 

What you don't seem to understand is the analysis of films (or whatever) for such effects is an impartial process (or it should be... it's becoming less so with time passing). And when you say "top 10", I keep telling you, if it's my top 10, then yes, they're gonna be ranked. If it's overall top 10, they most likely won't be ranked and will probably be more than 10. Precisely because the line between them is too thin. Except for maybe Citizen Kane, which is probably just a tad bit above every other film.

You can't really say that one is better than another once they're on the same level, no, that's true. But you can easily determine which the best ones are. Think of it like tiers on fighting games, yeah? In the same tier, there's differences between films, but they're (more often than not) too tiny to justify a distinction.

 

Things like art are all about how we subjectively feel towards it. So to say that you should go by some 'objective principles' is, frankly, ridiculous. It's like you're saying objective values such as 'most expensive', 'finest materials', 'greatest number of awards' can all be placed into a formula to determine which sculpture is the best ever. Just nonsense.

 

I'm not saying that at all. I agree with you, art is all about how you relate to it. The only thing I'm saying is that regardless of how you relate to it, some things are better than others. The most important part of it is the way you feel about it, no doubt, but that's an experience that only exists within your dimension. And for all purposes, what you think doesn't matter. You're the one who's actually trying to impose your opinions on reality. When I mentioned Revolver earlier, I meant it. I love the film. It's a giant piece of shit, quality wise. But I really do love it. And that's all that matters. TO ME. Impartially speaking however, the film is not good at all. In fact, it's terrible, and that's the reality of what it is. What I think of it is only real inside my head. It's... subjective. Ah ah.

 

Best sculpture ever? In singular? Too imprecise. Best scupltures ever, however, is possible to determine. Objectively. I'm not that much into scultptures, though. Out of the 7 arts, it's tied with arquitecture for most dubious art form, in my opinion.

 

Then it's completely opinion. It's the opinion of a group of people who believe they are the most knowledgeable when it comes to judging films/anime series/art. The media mentioned all engages with people emotionally...that's how it works. Even if some things about a film are, on paper, better; e.g. greater budget, more awards, better cast - it's completely possible that a film with a small budget but a more endearing story can be seen as better to a number of people.

 

It's not opinion. It's objective comparison. Simple as that.

 

And techically better (budget, big stards, awards) means nothing when it comes to quality measurement. In films. You're pretty much on the same page as me, there.

 

No it isn't...thinking a film is the best thing ever is opinion. It will always be opinion. You can't factually prove something that is a preference.

 

Here is a fact:

 

My cat is covered in fur.

 

Here is an opinion:

 

Die Hard is awesome!

 

Ok, that last part was supposed to be more of a joke than anything, but still, (and I'm serious now) human "facts" are only real in our reality. That sounded stupid. That's actually a therory. But it's so irrelevant that it's really a giant waste of space, so yeah, you're absolutely right... Die Hard is awesome.

 

:heh:

 

But he's even admitting. that his fav anime isn't 'the best'. *sigh* I've had this debate SO often when it comes to rap music...

 

Why rap music?

 

And yet, he considers the best to be what another group of people have decided. The subjective decision of multiple human beings.

 

Truly silly.

 

It's not what they decided. It's what they deducted. And also because well, it's pretty much a fact once you do check out the so called "best". They're so good it obliviates everything. Doesn't mean they become your favourites, but you can't help but surrender to them. Like Casablance. I really didn't like it at all. And still don't. But when I watch I can clearly understand that it is indeed, a fantastic movie.

Hmmm... wait... all that talk and you don't even know what you're talking about. Have you actually ever seen any of the greats?

 

Black and white films are like books smeared in dog poo.

 

I know you're probably kidding, but I have to confirm it... you're kidding right?

 

Saying that a widely-considered great film is better than a widely-considered terrible film isn't exactly what he's saying. He's thinks that there is a definite, factual 'top 10' list of film and anime series. And that really is silly.

 

No I don't. I think there's a list of top films... and anime series. Not 10. A list. I never ever said 10. You made that up all by yourself.

 

Oxigen. Explain to me all the factors and all the criteria against which a film should be measured to tell if it is good or bad.

 

Go read the books I mentioned. The second one is best, but the first one is shorter. Ah ah ah ah ah. :heh: Kidding.

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Dannyboy-the-Dane Newbie

Dannyboy-the-Dane

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But the parameters by which the film is "objectively" judged is still decided by human beings. I see where you're coming from, but you have to stop claiming that the parameters you talk about are objective. You can analyse the crap out of a film - the plot, the music, the transitions, the characters, the actors, etc. But those factors do not determine whether a film is good or bad until human subjectivity is added, because, as I mentioned "good" and "bad" are by definition subjective words. That many people can agree on many of these parameters is what makes it possible to create a list of "best" films, but you have to realise it will never be an objective list.

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Goron_3 Newbie

Goron_3

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OW, that post you left above was just amazing and it was explained very well. Good stuff.

 

And I refered to rap music because you have to explain to some people that yes, kanye West is a great artist and one of the best entertainers on the planet but as a rapper he's probably not in the top 30 alive. It's similar to an extent.

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Sheikah Newbie

Sheikah

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OW, that post you left above was just amazing and it was explained very well. Good stuff.

We already know that you agree with him; no need to keep stating it.

 

OW, bar Goron I'm pretty sure everyone else in this topic can see that you stating certain types of media and art as factually the best is completely wrong. And it's not that you're stating what 'is' the best, independent from your own opinion, as you've not provided some sort of conclusive impartial evidence as to why such films/anime series are the best. You're mistaking what seems obvious (e.g. a critically acclaimed film being better than a huge flop) as something that must be a fact. When really, something that hinges entirely on opinion can never be fact. No matter how good most people think it is, it can never be fact. The only way it could ever be fact is if you petitioned to get the definition of the word 'fact' changed.

 

Oh, and by the way - you did mention a list of the top 10. It was in regard to the top 10 anime series quite a while ago...you said there was a factual top 10 list of anime series.

 

To be honest, it's kinda of bizarre that you claimed I made that up when you even admitted to having made such a list in this very topic:

 

It was Animes. And it was top 10. :heh:

 

Kind of a bizarre thing to say then, don't you think?

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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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I specified that it's not in order. Nor is it 10, it's whichever number it has to be, because there's a certain level in which it becomes pointless to further specify, it's not an exact science (nor is it a science per se). But yes, you can objectively and factually determine what are the top candidates in pretty much everything. Although excluding cinema, the lists are way too big, because there's just too much great books, paintings, music, whichever.

But yeah, there is a "formula" (paramaters) which determine a film's quality. The most important ones being the plot, the characters and the script. It's not an exact formula, but for a film to be truly masterful it must be a triumph in these 3 fields (unless we're dealing with documentaries, in which case, special rules apply). The ramifications of pertinence, importance, social relevance in these 3 elements are very important. The other more important fields are cinematography, photography, sonoplasty, the art direction and the performances (much like when reviewing games... the different "parts" of it). I mean... I don't really need to go on, do I, you get the point by now.

There was even a minor class about it in my former cinema school... Method for cinematic quality evaluation, if I translate it directly. If you're interested in what our study materials were, they were "Film Analysis: A Norton Reader" by R. L. Rutsky & Jeffrey Geiger and "Film Theory and Criticism" by Leo Braudy and Marshall Cohen.

 

Having studied cinema reception on more than what I'd call a "minor class" (but obviously this is a rather vague term so apologies if I have downplayed your actual study of it) its all a bunch of pretentious wank. And I say that as a pretentious wanker. Yes, wonderful cinematography and a brilliant script and moving direction and blah blah blah blah blah do make a good film, hell it could make a great film but these are still all subjective (as in why these categories make greatness is itself subjective). Art is meant to be in the hands of the people, not the critics (who are after all failed filmmakers). Trying to define what the greatest films of all time are according to some kind of criteria as if its a quality test of build strength (im using some kind of weird mechanics metaphor here) is ultimately pointless.

 

To put it rather crudely, film criticism is a bourgeoisie circle jerk.

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Oxigen_Waste Newbie

Oxigen_Waste

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OW, that post you left above was just amazing and it was explained very well. Good stuff.

 

And I refered to rap music because you have to explain to some people that yes, kanye West is a great artist and one of the best entertainers on the planet but as a rapper he's probably not in the top 30 alive. It's similar to an extent.

 

It really wasn't that good, and to be honest I've had this argument so many times with Sheikah it's getting rather boring by now (wouldn't you say Sheikah, old chap?). After all, as long as it's what I'm defending, it's bound to be relative to my own existence, so, it really does come down to your belief system in the end, Sheikah is somewhat right about that. I'll defend it till death, that's sure, but I can't exactly not accept the fact that it's my way of seeing things, wether it is "right" or not.

 

About Kanye... I personally would place him in the top 30, but wether he is or not... that's a hard one. These days though, I'm only really really in love with Wale and Blu. Rap seems like it's a genre which is plagued by "debut syndrome", as in, when new things come along they're great... but they usually do get pretty disappointing as time goes by. The genre is getting corrupt, I suppose.

 

OW, bar Goron I'm pretty sure everyone else in this topic can see that you stating certain types of media and art as factually the best is completely wrong. And it's not that you're stating what 'is' the best, independent from your own opinion, as you've not provided some sort of conclusive impartial evidence as to why such films/anime series are the best. You're mistaking what seems obvious (e.g. a critically acclaimed film being better than a huge flop) as something that must be a fact. When really, something that hinges entirely on opinion can never be fact. No matter how good most people think it is, it can never be fact. The only way it could ever be fact is if you petitioned to get the definition of the word 'fact' changed.

 

There's a clear difference of opinions here. I believe that movies (and overall art) have an inherent quality standard that is completely impartial to what the people make of it. I believe a work of art has it's own worth, completely independant of what we think of it. You believe it's all dependant on what we think and believe. I believe in observing and reporting, you believe in opinions. I've given up on trying to change the way you think, and I'm just gonna focus on settling the differences of our perspectives.

 

Oh, and by the way - you did mention a list of the top 10. It was in regard to the top 10 anime series quite a while ago...you said there was a factual top 10 list of anime series.

 

To be honest, it's kinda of bizarre that you claimed I made that up when you even admitted to having made such a list in this very topic:

 

Kind of a bizarre thing to say then, don't you think?

 

No, I don't. Anime is a ver recent medium, which wasn't even the focus of our discussion, and to be completely honest, I personally don't believe there's even "10" animes that can be called "masterpieces" in the whole medium, as it's too young to have that many... Yes, I did say 10 in regards to anime, specifically. But that's not what we were discussing is it? The fact that an isolated medium within the grand discussion did contain a numbered reference means nothing in comparison to the rest, so don't go grasping at straws. Anime is a baby in the family. And factually talking, I guess it comes down to about 10, yes.

 

I mean, not counting movies you'd have the likes of the Rurouni Kenshin Trust & Betrayal OVA, Death Note, Mushishi, Cowboy Bebop, Monster, Fullmetal Alchemist, etc. But they're not that many.

 

Having studied cinema reception on more than what I'd call a "minor class" (but obviously this is a rather vague term so apologies if I have downplayed your actual study of it) its all a bunch of pretentious wank. And I say that as a pretentious wanker. Yes, wonderful cinematography and a brilliant script and moving direction and blah blah blah blah blah do make a good film, hell it could make a great film but these are still all subjective (as in why these categories make greatness is itself subjective). Art is meant to be in the hands of the people, not the critics (who are after all failed filmmakers). Trying to define what the greatest films of all time are according to some kind of criteria as if its a quality test of build strength (im using some kind of weird mechanics metaphor here) is ultimately pointless.

 

To put it rather crudely, film criticism is a bourgeoisie circle jerk.

 

I agree with you almost 100%. I do. But that's me. And I'm not discussing opinions here. (This is getting kind of repetitive isn't it? :( Me, I mean.)

 

Also, I was at a cinema course, it wasn't exactly a minor, I just wasn't around for more than a year.

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Dannyboy-the-Dane Newbie

Dannyboy-the-Dane

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I believe that movies (and overall art) have an inherent quality standard that is completely impartial to what the people make of it. I believe a work of art has it's own worth, completely independant of what we think of it. You believe it's all dependant on what we think and believe. I believe in observing and reporting, you believe in opinions. I've given up on trying to change the way you think, and I'm just gonna focus on settling the differences of our perspectives.

...

 

Did you just admit yourself that the belief in an objective quality of films etc. is your personal opinion and not necessarily a fact? Haven't you thereby just underminded everything you've been trying to argue?

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