Origins of the Universe

[Mokong]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned parallel universes yet.

 

I remember watching some film on one of the documentry channels about Steven Hawkings and how he came up with the Big Bang Theory, in it he described it as the reverse of a black hole, where with a black hole everything becomes nothing (or so he thought at the time), reverse it and you have nothing into everything.

 

What if everytime a black is created is also the creation of another universe... of course these universes don't exist in ours, but parallel(?.. i'm using that word, but prolly not the best way to describe it)... maybe i just touched on string theory (i never read much about that)

 

Of course there's also the whole "choice" thing too, where for every given situation there is an infinate number of outcomes and choices.... and even though we only see the results of one choice, in parrallel universes (which are infinate also) all choices take place (one in each of course).... sometimes i always wonder if in a parrallel universe there's a version of me that just randomly goes mad and starts attacking people in whatever crowded room i'm in

[Mikey]

These thread always go around in circles, and no one proves anything. I am an atheist, but I do believe there could be a god, but due to lack of good evidence, I don't believe in him.

 

I don't dwell on it, I don't try to convince people to go along with my view, and if there is a god, I don't think he'd want me to worry about it.

[mcj metroid]

This is a debate, so no crappy arguments.?

 

Man i love you:)

 

I don't know what I believe and it's not something i usually think about. It isn'y god anyway that I know for sure(well not really)

[Wesley]

I believe the Universe was created by God.

[weeyellowbloke]

Oh man, I was just about to create a thread along these lines after an philosophical and theological argument I had with my girlfriend (yep, we really are an exciting couple). Warning, a long rambling post possibly full of spelling mistakes follows.

 

Basically as a Christian she is of the belief that God created the universe. However there is massive evidence to the contrary that is was in fact a "big bang" from evidence such as the remnant CBR (cosmic background radiation) and the Doppler Effect of light shifting to the red end of the spectrum to the increase in wavelength as light source moves away. She accepts that this may be the case, but the Big Bang can't have just happened and something (or in her case someone) must have caused it based on the fact that Newton's laws state every action has a reaction. However, Newton's laws are based upon the motion of matter and can't have an affect if there is no matter to affect on, therefore it is possible that nothing caused the Big Bang as there was nothing to cause. Similarly there was no time before the Big Bang as fourth dimension of time is inexorably linked to the first three dimension matter exists within. Essentially, no matter-no time. So if the Big Bang is the beginning of all matter and time absolutely nothing existed before it, so how could a God cause the Big Bang if there was nothing for "him" to exist within.

 

Now in quantum physics things sometimes do sometimes "just happen" chaotically and randomly. For example the decay of a radioactive nucleus happens spontaneously at a certain moment which is unpredictable other than being given a set amount of time it may happen within. Also subatomic particles have a habit of simply appearing without reason. So it could be possible that the singularity at the beginning of the universe "just appeared". But that just isn't very satisfactory that we're just here by random coincidence without reason. Luckily there are other theories the result of variations of String Theory which suggests there are may other dimensions beyond the usual four in which the basic constituent are one dimensional vibrating "strings" and that there are also "branes" which are extradimensional flat contruct in which our three dimensions exist. As well as our brane there may be innumerable other branes moving through these extra dimensions. It is suggested from this theory that the Big Bang could have been the result of a collision between our brane and another brane. It has even been suggested that this could be a cyclic process in which the collisions reverse the universe from contracting to expanding. But problems exist with these theories as String Theory has yet to be fully understood, let alone the idea of colliding branes. Basically though I think that there couldn't have been anything prior to the Big Bang.

 

The argument then went on to the eventual fate of the universe. If God has a plan for the universe and mankind I can't see it, as eventually the universe will come to some form of conclusion on a scale that makes humanity completely insignificant. The most likely form of conclusion I've heard is the Big Rip theory. Basically the universe is expanding at greater and greater rates. This is seen to be due to an increase in dark energy, which is a form of energy that exists simply from the space itself (basically an empty vaccuum has energy and density). This dark energy currently makes up 74% of the universe has a strong repulsive force on matter which overcomes the attractive force of gravity accelerating the expansion of the universe. Now the universe doesn't expand into anything, but rather it expands due to more space being created. So prior to the Big Bang space itself did not exist. So if empty vaccuum has this dark energy and space is increasing dark energy must be increasing, meaning that eventually it will overpower gravity causing galaxies to tear apart, followed by stars, planets and eventually atoms. As recently as this year a new theory following this was proposed that extends this that suggests that just before the Big Rip becomes total a patch of the universe is retained that contains only dark energy, resulting in the universe basically starting again afresh.

 

Some of this may be pretty wrong as I'm remembering all this from a physics and cosmology module I did in the first year of university and from discussions with some friends who do physics at university, but it pretty much covers my current understanding of the universe.

 

As for my girlfriend, the argument went on through the night, encompassing extraterrestrials, conscious thought, life after death, life before death and other such things. She still reckons it was God though and always will.

[Happenstance]

What ive always found interesting is, if infact the universe is always expanding, what is the area that it is expanding into

[weeyellowbloke]

What ive always found interesting is, if infact the universe is always expanding, what is the area that it is expanding into

 

As far as I know it's not expanding into anything, which is mind bending to say the least. Unlike other expanding objects (a balloon for example) the universe doesn't expand into space as the universe is space itself. Rather the universe expands by more space being "added" between matter.

 

Hmmm, wikipedia explains it better than me:

The metric expansion of space is a key part of science's current understanding of the universe, whereby spacetime itself is described by a metric which changes over time in such a way that the spatial dimensions appear to grow or stretch as the universe gets older. It explains how the universe expands in the Big Bang model, a feature of our universe supported by all cosmological experiments, astrophysics calculations, and measurements to date.

 

The expansion of space is conceptually different from other kinds of expansions and explosions that are seen in nature. Our understanding of the "fabric of the universe" (spacetime) requires that what we see normally as "space", "time", and "distance" are not absolutes, but are determined by a metric that can change. In the metric expansion of space, rather than objects in a fixed "space" moving apart into "emptiness", it is the space that contains the objects which is itself changing. It is as if without objects themselves moving, space is somehow "growing" in between them.

[Happenstance]

Isnt there a theory aswell that if we could build a telescope powerful enough that we'd actually be able to see back to the big bang?

[Haden]

Being a christian I think God made the universe. For who created God he isnt part of nature but is supernature therefore doesnt need to be created. My friend who does physics at uni and got a 1st isnt a christian but says he finds it impossible to be a theist but I cant speak for his ideas but just thought it would be fair to say not everyone who takes an interest in science is an atheist. But well I might stay out of this thread as these topics usually need flameproof jackets and im getting to old for this lol but pm me if anyone wants a discussion on msn as I love talking about this stuff.

[killthenet]

Personally, I believe the big bang theory to be correct. But that doesn't explain how all the ingredients for the big bang came about. I could be that scientists in another universe were wondering how their universe came into being, so created one of their own. But if their universe had been created in the same way, who created the universe that created theirs?

 

It's probably fairly pointless for us to ponder these things, we'll never see an answer in our lifetime.

[Shino]

Why would god create the universe?

[Ant-Shimmin]

Their is a God i'm just not sure if it is our God, or Allah heck it could be anyone...

[Happenstance]

Personally I dont believe there is a god, I tend to believe in science and things that can be explained. Although I have no problem other people believing in god, weve all had imaginary friends at some point :p

[weeyellowbloke]

Isnt there a theory aswell that if we could build a telescope powerful enough that we'd actually be able to see back to the big bang?

 

It would be pretty cool if we could, but it's not really possible because the further an object is away from us, the faster it accelerates. This leaves an observable past horizon beyond which we can't see as the light from these objects hasn't reached us or will never reach us as we're moving away faster than the light can travel. The actual amount of the universe that can be directly observed by us is absolutely tiny compared to the total size of the universe.

 

Why would god create the universe?

 

Who knows, because he was lonely or bored perhaps? Although if I had the power to create a universe I'd go for it simply out of curiousity.

[The fish]

Anyway, hence the whole "nothing existing before the big bang", which I did take from a lecture by Stephen Hawking. Of course, this is just one idea.

 

Well, actually, the theory is that everything, matter and energy-wise, existed before the big bang, but it was just in a very, very, very small space. The pressure go too great, and it all went pop.

 

Their is a God i'm just not sure if it is our God, or Allah heck it could be anyone...

 

I pray to any gods, or god, that you are smitten for your evil spelling of "there"...

 

Why would god create the universe?

 

Shits and giggles?

[Shino]

My problem most religious debates is that the very idea of God is very simple, and being omnipotent its an easy way to justify everything else. If we eventually discover what created the Big Bang, and why was it created, there will always be a new scientific boundary to attribute to god. Why is it so hard to have faith in humanity instead, god hasn't solved our problems.

[The fish]

My problem most religious debates is that the very idea of God is very simple, and being omnipotent its an easy way to justify everything else. If we eventually discover what created the Big Bang, and why was it created, there will always be a new scientific boundary to attribute to god. Why is it so hard to have faith in humanity instead, god hasn't solved our problems.

 

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the idea that if you cram absolutely all the matter and energy in the universe into a space with less volume than a proton, it has a pressure great enough to make such an explosion that is required.

 

Science: it works, bitches. :wink:

 

Oh, and I often wonder about the "faith in humanity" thing, too.

I find that people are, generally speaking, good.

The first person who says "ah, but they got their morals from religion, didn't they?" gets a sheep thrown at them.

[Oxigen_Waste]

I have on HUGE problem with human science. It takes the fact that everything has a beginnig for a fact. And indeed, it IS a HUMAN fact. But the universe isn't bound by human laws, so why should it have an origin? Is it that hard to accept that maybe it was just there all along?

[The fish]

I have on HUGE problem with human science. It takes the fact that everything has a beginnig for a fact. And indeed, it IS a HUMAN fact. But the universe isn't bound by human laws, so why should it have an origin? Is it that hard to accept that maybe it was just there all along?

 

This is a point I often will try to get across to people about there being a finite, amount of mass and energy. Take the total amount of mass, times it by the speed of light in a vacuum, and add the amount of energy, and you get one, massive, fat number of Joules, which is constant, ad infinitum.

[Indigo]

Think of the world as a number of causes in a chain. Each cause triggers another in a domino-like effect. Each cause (or action) does not cause itself - they are contingent on the previous actions (think of the domino analogy). The world can thus either be explained as an infinite regress of caused causes (an endless line of dominos), or alternatively there is a first uncaused cause - a necessary being, outside the causal network, that is the cause of causation (triggering the domino effect). An infinite regress doesn't answer the question of why there is something rather than nothing, hence the conclusion of the existence of a first cause (ie. God) is reached.

 

That's a simple cosmological argument for you to mull over. It's by no means flawless, but it's at least thought-provoking, and counters the dilemma that many have brought up of "what created God?", since God is seen as a necessary being, outside the causal network. God is. He doesn't need to be created because he is outside of cause and time, and so the very concept of non-existence cannot apply to him.

 

Btw, I am a theist, but I don't believe that God can ever be proved scientifically or philosophically even. Though neither can God be disproved.

[The fish]

He doesn't need to be created because he is outside of cause and time, and so the very concept of non-existence cannot apply to him.

 

I really, really, really don't want to flame you.

I really don't.

I honestly don't, I promised myself I wouldn't get into these kind of arguments anymore.

 

Oh, fuck it, I've had a bad week; I need some fun.

I'll be gentle, though...

 

That is a useless argument for the existence of a god.

It falls apart if you think about it for more than 3 seconds.

 

How (or should I say "why") does god exist outside space-time, and what evidence have you to support this idea?

Why can't the universe be a loop; something that expands and contracts over time?

 

Come on, matey, if this is going to be a proper debate, you'll need some evidence.

[Slaggis]

I have on HUGE problem with human science. It takes the fact that everything has a beginnig for a fact. And indeed, it IS a HUMAN fact. But the universe isn't bound by human laws, so why should it have an origin? Is it that hard to accept that maybe it was just there all along?

 

Yes, but everything has to start somewhere right? I mean it has to have a beginning?

 

This is going to end up being like the "chicken and the egg argument" lol

[The fish]

Yes, but everything has to start somewhere right? I mean it has to have a beginning?

 

This is going to end up being like the "chicken and the egg argument" lol

 

Not at all, there is no reason that everything can't just be everything, so to speak.

 

Also, the egg came first, both generally and in the sense of the "egg that contained the first chicken". :wink:

[Slaggis]

Not at all, there is no reason that everything can't just be everything, so to speak.

 

Also, the egg came first, both generally and in the sense of the "egg that contained the first chicken". :wink:

 

It's just a bit mind boggling saying "well everything was just there". Maybe it's just my mind being wierd, but it's just hard to imagine something not having a beginning.

[Ant-Shimmin]

Will someone kill themselves and come back to us ?

 

Just the clear the situation up