Imagination vs. Realism

[Nicktendo]

As technology continues to advance, more and more options become available to developers. The opportunity to develop more realism into video games in the form of visuals, physics or locations amongst others becomes more achievable. But is this a good thing? In the last generation games the main focus of many games available was “realism.” Particularly those developed in western markets. Basing a game on a particular real-life location became more common. This is set to continue even more so in the present generation with technology where it is today. People want realism in today’s games. For instance, look at games such as Project Gotham 3. It features 4 cities perfectly modeled on their real life counterparts. The upcoming GTA 4 is also modeled as an exact replica of NYC, obviously with cosmetic changes. But does this mean it’s going to have the same basic map as Spiderman 3?

 

It seems that many games are following this suit and that perfectly recreating somewhere in the world is a great achievement, but I disagree with this. I find it to be a cop out. What ever happened to good old imagination! Why cant developers give us something BETTER than New York, or Los Angeles. Why can’t they make it look like the city, have characteristics maybe, but at least have some form of design input?

 

This is also represented in visuals. I will use 2 examples but there are many more - Pro Evolution Soccer 6 and Smackdown vs. Raw 2007 on the 360. Both games are EXACTLY this same as the previous generation version but with super hi-res graphics, a bit of online play and a slightly new control method. The focus though has been on the look, on the graphics, with the core gameplay remaining the same. There are far too many games on the 360 and PS3 guilty of this though.

 

With all these new (generally unimportant) things developers seem intent on focusing on, a big divide is obviously occurring. I have had a 360 for 2 months and I am yet to find a game that is actually any fun to play. Most games feel re-hashed from previous generations, it’s all the same. Some games are even worse than previous installments, Tony Hawks Project 8. The thing that I enjoyed the most on the 360 was Live Arcade, it had some wonderful little games on it, that require real skill and patience. I’ve been what many of you would consider a “hardcore” gamer for 15 years and I never expected to be left feeling so empty when I bought myself an Xbox 360. Maybe I’m growing out of gaming but it all feels just, so pointless now. There’s no sense of achievement in any games anymore. Every time I buy a new game it feels like I’ve done it all before.

 

The 360 and PS3 are too expensive for the casual gamer and they’re aren’t enough hardcore gamers in the world to make them both profitable, they’re making a loss on each unit sold for god sake! Maybe I’m the only one who feels like this, maybe as my life moves forward into my new home, my girlfriend and my career gaming takes less significance over everything.

 

Finally, I will urge all of you, if you ever get the chance to play on Kororinpa on the Wii, do. Let your thoughts and questions slip away. Lose all fear of looking stupid, or feeling like an idiot. Don’t think about the graphics, the sound quality. Immerse yourself for 15 minutes. Listen to, rather than find fault with the music. Let the experience take you over and the come back and tell me what YOU think video games are all about. There’s something there that I guarantee will grab you and intrigue like nothing before. It may not hold people like it does some, but it’s there.

 

Thanks for taking the time to listen, I’d love to hear your opinions on gaming and what you think about its currents state.

[That Guy]

After playing PGR3, Virtua Tennis 3, Crackdown, and Gears of War in the last week I can tell you that if you haven't found a fun game to play on XBOX 360 you're not looking properly. I'll also point you in the direction of Viva Pinata and Guitar Hero II while I'm at it.

 

I love what nintendo are doing right now with Wii and DS, but I'd hate to see that replace hat we have in 360 and PS3.

 

Also don't underestimate how much fun online play is.

[nekunando]

*high five*

 

..haven't played Kororinpa, but I pretty much agree with you on the whole there. I think things will be a lot more clear in a year (maybe two years) time.

 

I still feel as if we are in the transition period between generations where, going by what you say, XBox 360 and PS3 seem to be giving out games we have been basically able to play for the last 5 years, but with flashier graphics (at the minute). The Wii, dare I say it, has on many occasions been giving us what we have been able to play for the last 5 years without flashier graphics and, in several instances, a tacked on control scheme.

 

Somewhere down the line, things are likely to push on. The Wii won't be getting so many PS2 games with Wii controls- the PS2 will be phased out and (hopefully) the Wii shall be standing on its own two feet. Developers should be implementing new ideas and making great use of the Wii controls, building things from the ground up. In my opinion, the Wii really is an excellent prospect and I love not knowing what we are going to get any more.

 

If you buy a racing game- you know how it's gonna play. Football game- you know. Fighting- you know. With the Wii, this isn't true. You don't pick up a joypad and go.. oh, racing game here- A must be accelerate, B to brake.. Analogue Stick to steer. There's a sense of the unknown, a freshness..

 

(damn, I'm sort of forgetting where I'm going here.. )

 

..anyway.. I'm sure the PS3 and XBox 360 will have it's fair share of great games, but I'm glad the Wii is going a different direction and we don't know where it will end up. Nintendo have, in my opinion, certainly made games a much more interesting prospect this generation than it would otherwise have been..

 

(I kinda lost where I was going with that.. but I hope at least someone understands what I'm getting at )

[Nicktendo]

I have Viva Pinata, and while its my favourtie game on the 360 which I feel definately brings something new to the console, its just not up there with the likes of Animal Crossing and Harvest Moon in terms of gameplay. I have played PGR 3, which was awful compared to the excellent PGR2. I found gears or War dull, repetative and short. Crackdown is fun for about 5 hours and then the novelty wares off... I am yet to play Virtua Tennis but will keep it in mind.

 

As for Xbox live, I have 2 seperate month long trials and I don't think I've ever been so insulted in a wide manner of ways in such a short amount of time. It's INCREDIBLY difficult to find a decent game, with decent opponants on any game. Whenever I was winning a 1-on-1 game the other user would quit. I guess it would get better when you have an expansive friends list, which I don't, though I don't think it can compare to having 3 mates round and some beers. Downloadable content is a good idea though and I'd like to see that implamented in some form on the Wii in the future.

[Pit-Jr]

To be honest, im having the most fun with the VC and XBLA myself

 

I agree with everything you say about realism clashing with creativity. I think your being too hard on the 360 though. The Wii and PS3 are both filled to the brim with those 'been there done that' type games.

 

Also, havent played Kororinpina yet but i loved Marble Madness back in the day, so im sure its great.

[Nicktendo]

*high five*

 

..haven't played Kororinpa, but I pretty much agree with you on the whole there. I think things will be a lot more clear in a year (maybe two years) time.

 

I still feel as if we are in the transition period between generations where, going by what you say, XBox 360 and PS3 seem to be giving out games we have been basically able to play for the last 5 years, but with flashier graphics (at the minute). The Wii, dare I say it, has on many occasions been giving us what we have been able to play for the last 5 years without flashier graphics and, in several instances, a tacked on control scheme.

 

Somewhere down the line, things are likely to push on. The Wii won't be getting so many PS2 games with Wii controls- the PS2 will be phased out and (hopefully) the Wii shall be standing on its own two feet. Developers should be implementing new ideas and making great use of the Wii controls, building things from the ground up. In my opinion, the Wii really is an excellent prospect and I love not knowing what we are going to get any more.

 

If you buy a racing game- you know how it's gonna play. Football game- you know. Fighting- you know. With the Wii, this isn't true. You don't pick up a joypad and go.. oh, racing game here- A must be accelerate, B to brake.. Analogue Stick to steer. There's a sense of the unknown, a freshness..

 

(damn, I'm sort of forgetting where I'm going here.. )

 

..anyway.. I'm sure the PS3 and XBox 360 will have it's fair share of great games, but I'm glad the Wii is going a different direction and we don't know where it will end up. Nintendo have, in my opinion, certainly made games a much more interesting prospect this generation than it would otherwise have been..

 

(I kinda lost where I was going with that.. but I hope at least someone understands what I'm getting at )

 

I totally agree with you, the sense of unknown and learning new control methods really appeals to me. I can't wait to see what new experiences the Wii will bring.

 

What really gets to me though is the idiots that are like "WOAH PS3, Hi-DEF GRAPHICS, 5.1 Surround sound, Totally ralistic physics, it's SO IMMERSIVE AND REALISTIC!" However, you press circle to punch and your controller cant even muster up enough courage to rumble.

[Sarka]

I agree too.

 

Realistic games are dull. Why would I want to travel around New York when I could ride a dinosaur around a colourful kingdom full of mushrooms and deadly plants? I think the main thing wrong with games is the feeling of realism. I far prefer games which are abstract, I want them to take me to another world.

 

The list of games I want represents that. Mario Galaxy, Wario Ware, Kororinpa, Cooking Mama. Each of these are wonderfully colourful and vibrant. They're fun to watch and fun to play.

 

I also believe that the current consoles can't quite do ultra-realistic. If they try, there are always bits here and there where you can go "Ugh" and "That's not right". With Wind Waker, you never see somehting and think it doesn't look like it should. Everything looks perfect. As does Wario Ware. However, in Twilight Princess, it's easy to spot ugly patches.

 

Games should be bright! Imaginative! Fantastic! Immersive!

[Cube]

I also believe that the current consoles can't quite do ultra-realistic. If they try, there are always bits here and there where you can go "Ugh" and "That's not right". With Wind Waker, you never see somehting and think it doesn't look like it should. Everything looks perfect. As does Wario Ware. However, in Twilight Princess, it's easy to spot ugly patches.

 

100% agreed. As I do some 3D Modelling stuff myself, I find it easy to notice the rubbish stuff - When I look at a "realistic" game, I just look for what shortcuts the developers have made. (e.g. the Call of Duty 4 trailer, I noticed that most of the scenery was just 2D...the grass, buts of wood, chothes lines, etc...looked horrible). I prefer game where I can just ignore the graphics (e.g. a field..If it has horrid chunks of 2D grass, it looks fugly in my eyes...if it's a simple ground texture, I don't notice that it looks ugly).

 

Weather, water and fire effects are great if done properly (e.g. Rain like Residen Evil 4, Water like Super Mario Sunshine).

 

Resident Evil 4 is actually a rarity in "realistic graphics" - It doesn't already look out-of-date. Capcom seemed to have hit the realistic-but-not-overtrying nail on the head (A lot of 360 and PS3 games look like they are "overtrying", which I think looks horrid).

[That Guy]

I have Viva Pinata, and while its my favourtie game on the 360 which I feel definately brings something new to the console, its just not up there with the likes of Animal Crossing and Harvest Moon in terms of gameplay. I have played PGR 3, which was awful compared to the excellent PGR2. I found gears or War dull, repetative and short. Crackdown is fun for about 5 hours and then the novelty wares off... I am yet to play Virtua Tennis but will keep it in mind.

 

As for Xbox live, I have 2 seperate month long trials and I don't think I've ever been so insulted in a wide manner of ways in such a short amount of time. It's INCREDIBLY difficult to find a decent game, with decent opponants on any game. Whenever I was winning a 1-on-1 game the other user would quit. I guess it would get better when you have an expansive friends list, which I don't, though I don't think it can compare to having 3 mates round and some beers. Downloadable content is a good idea though and I'd like to see that implamented in some form on the Wii in the future.

 

Have you played Crackdown in co-op? And try playing soe online games with some friends. I've played with people on here and it's great.

 

What exactly is on the Wii that makes you say this stuff?

[Nicktendo]

Have you played Crackdown in co-op? And try playing soe online games with some friends. I've played with people on here and it's great.

 

What exactly is on the Wii that makes you say this stuff?

 

Well I don't really know, it just feels really fresh. I got it on launch at 5AM with Zelda, Red Steel, Wii Play and Monkey Ball. I'll be the 1st to admit that Zelda is the most dissapointing. Since then I've played alot of crap, CoD3, FarCry, Sonic, Tony Hawks, and I also think the Wii has more terrible games than any other console.

 

At launch I LOVED Red Steel. Generally speaking its a fairly poor game. Technically its not brilliant. What I loved about it was the fresh, new feeling I got kind of like the FPS had been re-invented. It was an experience similar to playing goldenye for the 1st time. It's an intriguing game by the fact that despite all its short comings its can be extremely fun to play and very its challenging.

 

I finished monkey ball in a week and found the main game incredibly fun. Again it was very tough, requiring alot of time and skill but it felt extremely rewarding to finish. I would say its the most rewarding game I've played in a long time.

 

I've had lots of fun on 2 player with my girlfriend on Wii Sports, Wii Play and Warioware. Before she had only played Animal Crossing but she Loves the Wii.

 

Since launch I've bought Excitetruck which is immense ammount of fun and really reminds me of the SNES and 64 days. I still can't finish platinum on Super Excite. Certainly the most fun game I've played on the Wii. I have Godfather which the control system truly brings to life, sure the location is very poor and plain but its so much fun just to wander round and take over shops! Kororinpa has a really old-school feel to it, again its quite hard but also quite rewarding. It strips gaming down to it bare roots and delivers a challenging game that rewards true skill and patience.

 

The of course there's the VC which I don't need to say much about because everyone knows how awesome it is.

 

I used to think I was a bit of a Nintendo Fanboy, but its actually Nintendo's games I've enjoyed the least. There is just SOOO much crap out on the Wii its hard to see the good games in the pile of turd ones. I guess the thing is about the 360, which I think is an excellent console with excellent features. It's just too.. "expected." It's like developers have given up on giving us someting new and just stuck with the formulas that work. This doesn't surprise me due to all the spiraling development costs though.

 

I think the PSP proves that if you just keep getting more and more powerful you eventually come to a halt, there are no really standout games on it. I think it's crucial for the 360 and PS3 to really strive to break the formulas and find their own identities instead of competing to be the "most powerful" or "feature packed." It's exactly like the SNES being bundled with a VHS and the Mega Drive a BETAMAX. In 10 years time people wont care what music you had on your console, if it could play HD-DVD or Blue-Ray, at the end of the Day its the games that make a console stand out.

[Mr. Bananagrabber]

I think the PSP proves that if you just keep getting more and more powerful you eventually come to a halt

Hardly, just because it isn't selling as well as the DS doesn't mean it isn't selling very, very well.

there are no really standout games on it.

As with all this talk of freshness, it's all your opinion My honest to God main complaint about the Wii is that I feel like i'm retreading old ground,

It's certainly going to be interesting to see which come out on top.

[Nicktendo]

Hardly, just because it isn't selling as well as the DS doesn't mean it isn't selling very, very well.

 

As with all this talk of freshness, it's all your opinion My honest to God main complaint about the Wii is that I feel like i'm retreading old ground,

It's certainly going to be interesting to see which come out on top.

 

Thanks for your opinions, I think the PSP is selling better than I expected. I do think it will drastically slow to a halt over this year though. Again, its my opinion. What in particulart do you dislike about the Wii and like perhaps about the Xbox 360 / PS3??

[steggy]

I think there is a place for realism and there is a place for artistry.

 

For instance my friend has a PS3 and I had a few goes on Motorstorm, which he described as "It's like excite truck but without the stupid high jumps." Which to me says "It's like excite truck without the best bits."

 

Anyway I played it with it's realistic physics and was quite honestly bored, now I've only played two tracks but what I did play I felt was too slow. You pressed boost and it just didn't seem to increase your speed.

 

Graphically both Excite truck and motorstorm go for a more realistic presentation and of course Motorstorm wins that hands down, but on the gameplay front Excite Truck goes for playability and in my opinion is the much better game for it.

 

So there is a place for realism, but if it gets in the way of gameplay then it has no place in a game.

[Jasper]

I have a slight feeling I said this thing a long time ago in another thread. I gave different examples, like Skies of Arcadia wich might look crappy, but is still a great game. But I looked from a different context. I was talking about developers not leaving gaps for imagination of the player. It's not only the developers that need to use their imagination, it's the player, too. That's where we got a problem: the lazy fat kid that doesn't want to use it's imagination to make a game great.

 

Ocarina of Time is still one of the best-looking games, since your imagination fills in the gaps that the developers left (jacky character models, no speech, soddy animation) - but with more advanced technology coming up, people don't realize that they are given more and more things in advance by the developer. They need to imagine less and therefore the games get more boring.

 

Here's why I think that Twilight Princess is a fantastic game compared to all the rest out there: it has no speech! Your imagination thinks of the voices and fills the gaps the developers left - you're actively playing a game! Why is Super Mario 64 such a great game? Because it didn't tell you exactly what to do! Why is Metroid Prime such a great experience? Because you want to know what's behind the next door - and your imagination makes it all the greater!

 

Developers just fill to many gaps. It's not about realism, it's about letting the player create a part of the game himself, without it literally being referred to by the developer...

 

That's why gaming gets boring.

 

Give me a game you like (and I know, else I can't tell you...) and I'll tell you where the developers left their gaps to make sure that it is a fun experience. Now I won't always be able to point my finger at it, but still - I'll try.

[DCK]

Heh there seem to be two patterns for new members:

 

1) Create loads of threads asking stupid questions to the annoyance of everybody (I'm looking at you stuwii).

 

2) Create one strong thread about game design philosophy that ultimately boils down to everybody praising the Wii.

 

Welcome Nicktendo, I totally agree

[mcj metroid]

realism is dull and very..American. I would much rather play F-zero than gran turismo. or timeplitters than medal of honour.

[Hellfire]

All I want are good games. I also tend to dislike realism, but if it's a good game, I don't care. That's basically it.

[That Guy]

Thing is, Xbox Live, to me, is a reason to own the console. And whenever this is brought up, people also point out swearing/annoying Americans/11 year olds.

 

But the reason I really love Xbox Live is playing with everyone on here that I talk to every day. This is why I'm so desperate for the Wii to have that same 'connected' service. I wasn't a fan of Crackdown until me and Stefkov went through and played it in co-op. Now it wouldn't have been as good if I'd have gone on with some random guy and played through.

 

Achievements are also one of the best inovations in a long time. I know some are stupid, but Crackdown really is twice the game for giving you tons of stuff to do for points.

[ipaul]

Very well written, pleasure to read

I think that games based on realism have a more solid foundation for selling and profit making. Alot of the times the games can look, sound and play well but lack anything out of the odinary or lack character and soul.

 

Games which are full of imagination often take risks and are often based around a single new concept or idea. Companies have difficulty with a totally new style of game because it means they have to persuade the consumer this odd, out of the odinary game is worth playing and not a piece of arty. pretentious crap. These games can end up being badly thought ideas gone wrong or truly magnificient games, full of passion, character and soul. I think a good example is Killer 7, a truly different kind of game which just oooozes character. People love it or hate it and its games like this that make the medium as a whole better. They prove that games can be a true expression of the imagination, regardless of sales and that not all games are generic racing/shooting games.

 

Well that's my two cents anyway...

[Pacifica]

I use to have this idea that games are a way of doing things that you cant nessasarly do in real life (how many of us are going to work for MI6), so in that sense the realism of graphics can aid to the experience. But I do agree we do not need a perfect replica of New York, games should be able to take you away, and just allow yourself to be immersed without any outside worry's.

 

What really gets to me though is the idiots that are like "WOAH PS3, Hi-DEF GRAPHICS, 5.1 Surround sound, Totally ralistic physics, it's SO IMMERSIVE AND REALISTIC!"

 

I completely agree with this, you can tell that these people have just memorised a list of things someone said, not given them a second tought, as of course there right, and then you try and argue the games like wii sports and they just say why would i want to play cartoon, and yet everyone i know who has played wii sports has loved it.

 

Ocarina of Time is still one of the best-looking games, since your imagination fills in the gaps that the developers left (jacky character models, no speech, soddy animation) - but with more advanced technology coming up, people don't realize that they are given more and more things in advance by the developer. They need to imagine less and therefore the games get more boring.

 

I was going to mention this as was well, if you think back the graphics on the game are not realistic at all, and yet when you play this game you are completely took away into role and enjoy the game so much. maybe thats where Twilight Princess failed slightly,(although i personally think this is an amazing game), but maybe because the graphics were trying to be realistic you did then, as Jasper said, notice things that were wrong.

 

In septembre i'm off to uni to study games art design, and i do often wonder in the years to come, what kind of games will i be working on, will i need to be able to make a perfect replica of the empire state buliding, or will my imagination be able set free and make the next alien planet Samus lands on.

[Kurtle Squad]

I have a slight feeling I said this thing a long time ago in another thread. I gave different examples, like Skies of Arcadia wich might look crappy, but is still a great game. But I looked from a different context. I was talking about developers not leaving gaps for imagination of the player. It's not only the developers that need to use their imagination, it's the player, too. That's where we got a problem: the lazy fat kid that doesn't want to use it's imagination to make a game great.

 

Ocarina of Time is still one of the best-looking games, since your imagination fills in the gaps that the developers left (jacky character models, no speech, soddy animation) - but with more advanced technology coming up, people don't realize that they are given more and more things in advance by the developer. They need to imagine less and therefore the games get more boring.

 

Here's why I think that Twilight Princess is a fantastic game compared to all the rest out there: it has no speech! Your imagination thinks of the voices and fills the gaps the developers left - you're actively playing a game! Why is Super Mario 64 such a great game? Because it didn't tell you exactly what to do! Why is Metroid Prime such a great experience? Because you want to know what's behind the next door - and your imagination makes it all the greater!

 

Developers just fill to many gaps. It's not about realism, it's about letting the player create a part of the game himself, without it literally being referred to by the developer...

 

That's why gaming gets boring.

 

Give me a game you like (and I know, else I can't tell you...) and I'll tell you where the developers left their gaps to make sure that it is a fun experience. Now I won't always be able to point my finger at it, but still - I'll try.

 

I love Super Mario Bros. DLed it today and it's really fun, I much prefer it to Super Mario World & Mario Bros 3.

[Jasper]

I love Super Mario Bros. DLed it today and it's really fun, I much prefer it to Super Mario World & Mario Bros 3.

 

And why precisely did you quote me?

 

For the fun factor? I've not played it, but going on my experience: it's just the bloody freedom you're given. You want to try out and Nintendo encourages you to try to compelte an entire level with only jumping from enemy to enemy and rewarding you with devastatingly high-scores. I'm quoting NGC Magazine (back in the day) stating this:

 

Developers take note: Collecting a trail of coins is not fun. Smashing into a pillar causing a pot to fall down and a coin to pop out, that's fun.

About online gaming: don't expect it to be ever as good as Xbox Live with Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't have the resources, experience and backing systems to make it possible. If Nintendo ever manages to pull of a service like Live is now, it'll be too little, too late - Nintendo just sucks in that way... Wich is odd, if you think that they were the first to offer digital 'broadcast' service and online stuff back in the day in Japan and the first to introduce four player gaming.

[Patch]

And why precisely did you quote me?

 

For the fun factor? I've not played it, but going on my experience: it's just the bloody freedom you're given. You want to try out and Nintendo encourages you to try to compelte an entire level with only jumping from enemy to enemy and rewarding you with devastatingly high-scores. I'm quoting NGC Magazine (back in the day) stating this:

 

 

About online gaming: don't expect it to be ever as good as Xbox Live with Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't have the resources, experience and backing systems to make it possible. If Nintendo ever manages to pull of a service like Live is now, it'll be too little, too late - Nintendo just sucks in that way... Wich is odd, if you think that they were the first to offer digital 'broadcast' service and online stuff back in the day in Japan and the first to introduce four player gaming.

 

I like cheese. Even better if it's on toast. Mmmmm.

[Jasper]

I like cheese. Even better if it's on toast. Mmmmm.

 

You made a good point there. Now who was talking about Cheddar?

[ZeldaFreak]

I like a nice even balance in every game. This is slightly different than what I do but look at disney.

 

If you go to wdw, disneyland, disneyland paris. When you go to those resorts, there is a huge amount of imagination put into everything yet at them same time there is an increadible amount of detail(realism).

 

So if you can get that balance in the real world you should get it in a game as well.