Looking Good - The Case for Good Graphics

[shade]

Ok I think you have got to not look at it from a sales or a technical point. WhatI mean is look how gamers look at it, look how gamers who would not buy the gamecube. In my experience whilst they have been playing games like Wii Sports and Wario, they have praised the use of the controller, now these are people who normally look at the graphics ALOT! but they have not mentioned wii sports medicore graphics at all because they have been having fun.

 

Wii will never have the graphics edge. The £180 price tag is because nintendo's business model is to make money on each unit and hopefully when M$ push their price down so will Nintendo.

Graphics on Wii will improve, SSX BLur and Sonic are looking great. The best looking game at E3 was mario galaxy and that will look tons better when you see it next.

 

Bottom line wii is selling out not because of its price point but because of its fun, games such as Tiger Woods and sonic are interesting releases as they are the biggest third party releases so far after launch and hopefully they will sell well, as if they do wii will last a long time and will prove to everyone (*cough* sony) that wii was not an impulse buy like the PSP was at launch (Hit back)

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Wii Games look great using composite on my Step Dad's HDTV and HD Projector....

 

Exactly. I find it quite interesting that most people who have bought HD-TV here can't even understand so simple concept as upscaling, even though it is most basic thing that everybody who is interested about HD-TVs should know*. LCD-TVs have natural resolution of either 720p or 1080p. Because LCD-TVs can't show anything that is below their "natural" resolution, content that is in lower resolution is upscaled. For those who don't know what upscaling is, it is simple process where each outputted frame is enlargened in size to match TVs natural resolution.

 

Depending on your television set, upscaling can look either identical to "normal" television, or like in most cases, shitty and jaggy. Budget models are notoriously bad on upscaling, but so are most better models. Only recently manufacturers have started to put real effort into upscaling. Here is single frame from Wind Waker to compare differences:

 

 

Original picture that is in normal 480 resolution.

 

 

Picture upscaled to 720p resolution pixel by pixel without doing any corrections. This is how most HD-TVs deal with 480 content (just view picture in full size to see how bad it looks).

 

* Which hints that many posters here bought their sets to be on HD-TV bandwagon without actually caring what they get.

 

EDIT: Fixed aspect ratio. Now 720p looks even worse.

[Zechs Merquise]

This debate is probably gonna rage on for a longtime into the Wii's lifespan. Especially as the developers really get to grips with the 360 and PS3 hardware.

 

I think Nintendo made a major mistake neglecting the graphics. I've been left wanting a 360 more than the Wii, and I've never been interested in an non-Nintendo console before.

[That Guy]

It looks great on my LCD TV...

 

And mine.

 

I think this whole graphics thing is a tough one. At the end of the day, I think it was right for Nintendo to be able to offer a cheap system (by that I mean there's room for a price drop), the system looks great, and it's small, but most importantly, games are far cheaper to make on Wii than 360 and PS3.

 

Gamecube already struggled for games, and so far, yes, we are getting shite games, but at least we're getting something.

 

Also, if developers pull their fingers out and get creative with the WiiI'll be more than happy. That's why I like DS, because it was weird, quirky, and original games, like EBA, Hotel Dusk etc.

 

I want something different to 360 (I own one and love it btw), and maybe Nintendo did have to keep low spec graphics to convince developers to make games for the system.

[Cube]

The thing I find with Nintendo graphics, they don't wow you in screenshots, they don't wow you in trailers, but when you get the game....wow.

 

It's hard to explain - Wind Waker is probably the best example, the way the graphics act fluidly to your control, Nintendo seem to of mastered that effect. And they feel consistent, too. And getting wowed when you play the game, to me, is more important than in screenshots.

[david.dakota]

 

* Which hints that many posters here bought their sets to be on HD-TV bandwagon without actually caring what they get.

 

 

The problem is that every major store gives extremely bad advice on HD. Many bundle in standard DVD players/recorders, which, guess what... are only upscaled. Most will still sell you HD TV when the consumer actually states they have no intention to opt for pay-TV like Sky and Cable. Many will suggest that "Digital TV" is designed for HD source - not necessarily.

 

Consumer often go to stores for advice, and are inevitably given shite advice and take this as gospel.

[Jasper]

P o s t i n S h o r t:

You all think it's better to have good graphics because Xbox360 has multimedia. If I watch a movie, I care. If I play a game, i don't notice bad graphics. If you do notice bad graphics, it's just a bad game.

 

You know, this argument won't end anyway. Next generation Nintendo will be stuck because there isn't anything after HD, except Ultra HD - wich, so the story goes, makes you sick of realism watching it. This generation or the next gaming would be stuck. Okay, Nintendo could have pulled this off a generation later, but let's look at the facts.

 

GameCube was on the same level of graphics but couldn't compete. Sony fought Nintendo trying to get DVD into their system. Music CD's are property of Sony, and again, Nintendo wasn't granted a license. Nintendo can never become the multi-media system that Sony and Microsoft can offer. Nintendo will never make a music store or a film-downloading service. All those things that look like advantages over the Wii count up. So Nintendo had no choice: it was swim or dround.

 

And they swum with the paddles they had: Gaming. Better graphics wouldn't make the difference on the Wii - because that's not making the difference on the other systems. It's because the others are multimedia content providers with living-room enabled possibilities. And that's the exact point thaat makes the difference to many. That's why graphics don't matter on a Nintendo system - because they do'nt need that kind of output for the things they pursue.

 

High-Definition is the definition for multimedia content of the future. Games, wel, here's an example of how it works for games: The Wind Waker looked gorgeous and had unlimited graphic details, like shimmiring gold on the bodies of Moblins (or bokoblins, what the heck). Details no-one would notice if they hadn't watched someone else playing. In short, the player doesn't notice it, but the watcher does. Movies aren't meant to be played, they're meant to be watched. If you're gaming the graphics don't maake the hugest difference anymore. If I look smallville streaming on the web in incredible low-quality, I do care. Because it anoys if you're a watcher. If you're a player, it isn't annoying.

 

And because Nintendo is games, Nintendo isn't graphics. Because Microsoft and Sony are multimedia, their graphics matter a lot, because everyone could be watching, and not playing.

[Marthuser]

I think graphics DO play quite an important role in games, and I think Nintendo cut back far too much on this console. But then again, there haven't been any 1st or 2nd party games for the Wii out yet, bar Sports and Play. Zelda was developed for the GC, and it looks arguably better than Red Steel. I hope Brawl, MP3 (Especially) and Galaxy have brilliant visuals.

 

Anyway back to the first point, graphics do matter, along side with power. For example, take Final Fantasy, 13 if you will. Graphically it looks absolutely stunning. If it were made on the Wii, the graphics would have to be toned down ALOT, not to mention length of the game would have to be shortened due to space constraints. And all for in exchange for what? Innovating controls? Perhaps using the pointer to navigate menus, etc. but nothing absolutely revolutionary like sports games and such.

 

Anyway, the above is all hypothetical, and won't ever happen, if FF was made for the Wii, it would be built ground up for the Wii ( and it would look amazing. This is Square we're talking about).

It's just to prove a point, graphics do matter, along with the power of the console.

[Jasper]

Anyway, the above is all hypothetical, and won't ever happen, if FF was made for the Wii, it would be built ground up for the Wii ( and it would look amazing. This is Square we're talking about).

It's just to prove a point, graphics do matter, along with the power of the console.

 

Mentioned in development. A sequal to Chrystal Chronicles, that is. But it's called Final fantasy.

[kiwikid]

Here in NZ a brand new Xbox 360 game costs the same as a brand new Wii game. I thought Wii games were supposed to be cheaper. Something is not right there. Is this the case in other parts of the European world?

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

World of Warcraft has kinda crappy graphics, but they made it look cool and everybody thinks it looks nice.

[mcj metroid]

i think your stores are just screwing you.There are times when i see a 70 euro wii game and they should cost 60 euro. Also the wii console itself is supposed to be 250 euro but the only store that charges that amount is Argos.

 

Exactly. I find it quite interesting that most people who have bought HD-TV here can't even understand so simple concept as upscaling, even though it is most basic thing that everybody who is interested about HD-TVs should know*. LCD-TVs have natural resolution of either 720p or 1080p. Because LCD-TVs can't show anything that is below their "natural" resolution, content that is in lower resolution is upscaled. For those who don't know what upscaling is, it is simple process where each outputted frame is enlargened in size to match TVs natural resolution.

 

Depending on your television set, upscaling can look either identical to "normal" television, or like in most cases, shitty and jaggy. Budget models are notoriously bad on upscaling, but so are most better models. Only recently manufacturers have started to put real effort into upscaling. Here is single frame from Wind Waker to compare differences:

 

[

Picture upscaled to 720p resolution pixel by pixel without doing any corrections. This is how most HD-TVs deal with 480 content (just view picture in full size to see how bad it looks).

 

* Which hints that many posters here bought their sets to be on HD-TV bandwagon without actually caring what they get.

 

EDIT: Fixed aspect ratio. Now 720p looks even worse.

 

you coulnt have picked a worse screenshot of wind waker in the first place

[flameboy]

Here in NZ a brand new Xbox 360 game costs the same as a brand new Wii game. I thought Wii games were supposed to be cheaper. Something is not right there. Is this the case in other parts of the European world?

 

Wii games will be cheaper, but only once they start selling by the truck load,at the moment the relative low number of consoles available means that stores still feel they are taking a risk putting them on the shelves at lower prices, in case they don't sell. the same happened with the 360 and it isn't until recently that games have started to drop to the £40 mark, when at first they were £50/55. It's just how a lot of retailers work it, sell them more expensive to make a bigger cut.

 

When I worked at HMV, I checked a number of the games dealer prices (the price the retailer paid) they ranged from £22 to £28, so they are making huge markup on Wii games at the moment to counteract the lower numbers sold,when you compare it to the £32 (roughly) it takes to buy in some 360 games and the £40 they then sell them on for.

 

Unfortunatly it is also the case that there is a common view that games cost £40 (less for internet) so stores don't really have to reduce them, knowing that people will pay for it.

 

EDIT

 

One other point that the thread starter raised, about Nintendo making a profit off the console. Why do people have a go at Nintendo about that? after all they are a company they do have to make a profit to exist, just because sony and microsoft decide to sell a console at a lose is their problem, not Nintendo's. whilst they have done it in the past I don't blame them for making profit off something.

[SimonM7]

They simply prefer that the resources involved in creating a game have a more even balance between gameplay and graphics.

 

Truest words in the thread.

 

But Dante and Mushroom we shouldn’t have to choose. I think people have got into this mindset because we have to choose either graphics or the Wiimote (by buying either PS3/360 or Wii). We could have had it both ways if Nintendo had invested a little more.

 

And this counters the earlier statement.

 

 

I don't really know what kind of jump in graphics you pro-graphics guys are talking about, but I know one thing. When you max out graphics and everything starts looking the same you need to go elsewhere to compete. The whole point of setting the bar "low" with the Wii is for two things to happen.

 

1. Keeping development cheap so that experimentation is hugely encouraged.

 

2. Taking away the ability to compete on a technical level, instead forcing devs to take the idea route.

 

I think Dom's example makes for a great counter point. Crysis has been in development ever since the first PC Far Cry came out. That game's selling point are its graphics. Crytek wouldn't want to jeopardise their sure hit by murking up the beaten controls path, because they want to ensure that everybody gets their game. Puttin in Wii controls is a huge gamble, because they'll both alienate "true" FPS gamers, and they can (and will most likely) suck since the game wasn't built around them in the first place. Crysis is a huge, big damn project that'd either make or break Crytek as a team, and they'll want to keep is SUPER conventional as a result. And they will. And it'll sell, because people take a look at it and it's pretty.

 

With the Wii, that whole.. years of developing a crazily expensive engine is simply not even an option. You won't make a game that'll compete on a technical level with something like Crysis so you don't even bother. Instead, from day 1, what goes on in your mind is "how do we use these controls and these input methods in a unique way, how do we create something that truly speaks through its gameplay". That's what's gonna make Wii games THE most interesting games around from a pure gameplay perspective.

 

"We could have both!"-ers need to realise that we really, truly can't. Had the Wii been more powerful, the risk of ports would increase by 10, we'd get nothing but huge projects put on as many platforms as possible, with the Wii version having tacked on Wii controls.

 

What we want is for games to be built on the Wii from the ground up, and the ease, and cost-efficiency of development will ensure that those come out.

 

Once genres form and standards within the Wii control methods start to materialise, development on the Wii will focus more on graphics than they do now, but even then it'll be through clever use of power (think God of War) and art direction (Think Okami) - cheap methods that still has games done faster and cheaper than on competing platforms with games droughts throughout the year except in march and september.

 

People seem to think Nintendo missed a point, but the truth is they got it just fine.

[DCK]

Excellent point.

 

The Wii's lack of HD and power means that the games actually have development times that are overseeable. As gameplay is far easier to create than graphics, we're likely to see more good games than on the other platforms.

[LazyBoy]

Lazyboy who are you? A director of Nintendo? A shareholder? I’m a simple person wanting to play games – I don’t care about “prophitâ€s, so long as they have enough money to come and make games again, which Nintendo do.

 

You claimed that Nintendo should have gone with better graphics, I was saying that if I was Nintendo I wouldn't change a thing.

 

If you're asking me as a consumer, then yeah I would have liked better graphics on the Wii, I just don't want to pay more for it. I barely afforded the Wii as it is, and buying my 360 was a stretch. I won't be able to afford a PS3 for a long time.

[DCK]

Personally I think the Wii is overpriced as is. Can't imagine what it would've cost if Nintendo decided 'Hey let's go HD too'.

[mcj metroid]

Excellent point.

 

The Wii's lack of HD and power means that the games actually have development times that are overseeable. As gameplay is far easier to create than graphics, we're likely to see more good games than on the other platforms.

 

and that we are...We already have better games than ps3 and are catching up with 360 i believe

[Marthuser]

Mentioned in development. A sequal to Chrystal Chronicles, that is. But it's called Final fantasy.

 

Oops, forgot to say I meant one with a number, although any FF would look brilliant, and chances are, would be brilliant too.

[mr_bogus]

Reggie commented (which was backed up by an article on watercoolergames site) that they could not get enough Wii devkits out to meet demand. A lot of small team / indie developers see this as an opportunity to make games that they can afford on their budget and team size.

 

A big reason there are so many original & experimental games on the DS, compared to PSP, is development cost. There's the possibility of making a 2D (or simple 3D) game that still sells a decent amount. On PSP the game is expected to be around PS2 quality and complexity.

 

Similarly, a large budget cinematic Xbox360/PS3 project needs teams of 40+ members, a few years and a massive budget, where a team of 20 or less can make a Wii game in a year or 2.

 

This is one of the reasons the DS is beating the PSP despite being a generation behind graphically, and 1 of the things Nintendo hopes to accomplish with the Wii.

[DCK]

Reggie commented (which was backed up by an article on watercoolergames site) that they could not get enough Wii devkits out to meet demand. A lot of small team / indie developers see this as an opportunity to make games that they can afford on their budget and team size.

How does a shortage of devkits encourage indie developers?

 

Anyway, I hope Nintendo has given those indies the signal already to make stuff on Cube devkits/homebrew so far. There could be good titles like Alien Hominid coming from those people.

[mr_bogus]

Oops that was ambiguous, what i meant was "they can't get the devkits out quickly enough, because of the high demand". Indie developers are encouraged by the smaller budget & shorter development time, not the shortage of devkits as my crap grammar suggested!

[Pit-Jr]

 

"We could have both!"-ers need to realise that we really, truly can't. Had the Wii been more powerful, the risk of ports would increase by 10, we'd get nothing but huge projects put on as many platforms as possible, with the Wii version having tacked on Wii controls.

 

Where have you been? Not a day goes by that a new PS2 or PSP port isnt announced (with tacked-on Wii controls). I find this less appealing than having a current-gen port.

[DCK]

Where have you been? Not a day goes by that a new PS2 or PSP port isnt announced (with tacked-on Wii controls). I find this less appealing than having a current-gen port.

How long do you think that's going to last? The PS2 has died except for the people still playing Singstar and PSP games are outselled 10:1 by any random Wii game.

 

Developers will soon start migrating their stuff over to Wii and port those games over to the last gens, if possible.

[Jasper]

Where have you been? Not a day goes by that a new PS2 or PSP port isnt announced (with tacked-on Wii controls). I find this less appealing than having a current-gen port.

 

Don't shoot the guy, he's making a spectacular point here. No, not you - those PS2-ports will stop in the near future. Pubslishers just want their titles out there right now, even though they have none. After that initial break we can expect some original software. But I must say, i'm a dissapointed man right now. But, looking on the bright side of the coin (or to the silver lining to wich you english always refer): I've seen more original IP's on Wii than gameCube had in four years. It were four spectacular years, but, our little cube is squiched to a differently-shaped volume right now, known as Wii. And it got some better innards, a better look, a new controller, bluetooth, wifi and a dual-disc reading slot.

 

To the point: we'll be seeing the best very soon.