Wii Hardware Discussion

[Smiter]

Plus, you should only need ONE camera, don't you? That is, if there is one in the first place. :P

[SpinesN]

Maybe it's a microphone on the console? You really only need one of them anyway.

[Blue_Ninja0]

On the console? Either you would have to scream, or the mic would be so sensitive that it would pick up any noise. Wireless headset FTW.

[SpinesN]

Might be directional and track the 1st player wii mote or somthing. I dunno I'm not a microphone tech so not really sure what all is possible with them.

[system_error]

Might be directional and track the 1st player wii mote or somthing. I dunno I'm not a microphone tech so not really sure what all is possible with them.

 

Just think about it. Ever noticed how "good" the voice recognition works in the NDS? Even when you are close and speak very clearly it has some flaws. Creating a microphone which just "catches" waves from a certain direction is next to impossible for the console market. There are microphones which can do that - especially when it comes to eaves dropping and stuff.

 

Furthermore people with a beamer would have a serious problem ...

[SpinesN]

Just throwing ideas out there

Anyway who ever said voice recognition was needed? Just having a mic would do. Anyway like I said I don't know much about microphones so I can't really say what is and is not possible.

[Ashley]

Why need a microphone built into the controller? There's one for the Cube.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Been over at PlanetGamecube, and found this:

 

http://www.planetgamecube.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=11736

 

The console's CMOS-compatible embedded DRAM will complement the 1T-SRAM from MoSys, also announced today.

Nintendo's New WiiTM Video Game Console Uses NEC Electronics' Embedded DRAM

 

KAWASAKI, Japan, SANTA CLARA, Calif., June 19, 2006

 

NEC Electronics today announced that Nintendo Co., Ltd. has selected NEC Electronics' 90-nanometer (nm) CMOS-compatible embedded DRAM (eDRAM) technology for WiiTM, its innovative new video game console. Designed to provide advanced graphics functions for this new gaming platform, the new system LSI chips with eDRAM will be manufactured using advanced technologies on NEC Yamagata's 300-millimeter (mm) production lines.

 

Embedded DRAM technology integrates DRAM on the same chip with logic circuits, and is viewed as an optimal solution for three-dimensional (3D) graphics acceleration systems and other applications that need to process high bandwidth data using low power. In the past, the integration of an eDRAM structure with a standard CMOS process proved challenging. NEC Electronics achieved its fully CMOS-compatible eDRAM technology by integrating a metal-insulator-metal 2 (MIM2) stacked DRAM capacitor on the company's standard CMOS process.

 

I have no idea what any of these means for the Wii, as i am not a tech head. Can anyone make sense of this?

[djamb3]

optimal solution for three-dimensional (3D) graphics acceleration systems and other applications that need to process high bandwidth data using low power.

 

I think it sums everything up....

[Shino]

Been over at PlanetGamecube, and found this:

 

http://www.planetgamecube.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=11736

 

The console's CMOS-compatible embedded DRAM will complement the 1T-SRAM from MoSys, also announced today.

Nintendo's New WiiTM Video Game Console Uses NEC Electronics' Embedded DRAM

 

KAWASAKI, Japan, SANTA CLARA, Calif., June 19, 2006

 

NEC Electronics today announced that Nintendo Co., Ltd. has selected NEC Electronics' 90-nanometer (nm) CMOS-compatible embedded DRAM (eDRAM) technology for WiiTM, its innovative new video game console. Designed to provide advanced graphics functions for this new gaming platform, the new system LSI chips with eDRAM will be manufactured using advanced technologies on NEC Yamagata's 300-millimeter (mm) production lines.

 

Embedded DRAM technology integrates DRAM on the same chip with logic circuits, and is viewed as an optimal solution for three-dimensional (3D) graphics acceleration systems and other applications that need to process high bandwidth data using low power. In the past, the integration of an eDRAM structure with a standard CMOS process proved challenging. NEC Electronics achieved its fully CMOS-compatible eDRAM technology by integrating a metal-insulator-metal 2 (MIM2) stacked DRAM capacitor on the company's standard CMOS process.

 

I have no idea what any of these means for the Wii, as i am not a tech head. Can anyone make sense of this?

 

Behold the greatest of analogys*:

 

Imagine you have store at the end of your street and you take 5 minute to go there. But if the store is inside your house you wouldn't take any time at all.

 

TANTANTANNTA TAAANANANAN

 

*(I probably didn't understand anything of it and have no bases to comment on it).

[James McGeachie]

The confirmed RAM stuff apparently fits in perfectly with the specs IGN had stated a while back, so for the people who're still non-believers about those specs you should start to reconsider your stance I think.

[Jamba]

So can someone explain what this means?

 

I'm guessing, from James's comments that it's something along the lines of that the Wii will have less RAM than the competitors but it's not too bad because this RAM owns?

[system_error]

So can someone explain what this means?

 

I'm guessing, from James's comments that it's something along the lines of that the Wii will have less RAM than the competitors but it's not too bad because this RAM owns?

 

Depends on how much less main memory the Wii will feature - to compete with the Gamecube concerning loading times 136MB RAM are the minimum needed. Although I am hoping for 136 + 64MB (MoSys + normal RAM). RAM is cheap and has a huge impact on loading times and to be honest I expect Nintendo to reduce loading times even more. Everything above GC loading times would be a shame.

 

 

Update (IGN):

 

The announcements confirm IGN's previous reports that the Wii would make use of 1T-SRAM both in an embedded and individual application. Our most up-to-date specs promise 16MB of eDRAM (integrated in NEC's LSI chips) and 88MB of 1T-SRAM (the "additional external memory chip"), for a total of 104MB of system RAM, not counting the allegedly accessible 512MB of Flash RAM or the ATI Hollywood GPU's on-board memory, which is said to amount to 3MB.

 

Sounds nice but it is not enough in my eyes and I am sure we will see a jump in loading times.

[system_error]

I dont get this "allegedly accessible 512MB of Flash RAM", I doubt Nintendo would allow access to it. What happens if I've used all of mine up with say VC titles? Will my titles take an extra three seconds to load etc?

 

I doubt it.

 

Exactly - this is the same situation with the 360. Some consoles have the HDD others don't and as a developer you want to be on the safe side and make the game compatible with the least powerfull console eg. the one without extra memory. Moreover those 512MB flash memory would just slow loading times down in a game.

 

 

Nintendo really should put a decent amount of real memory into the Wii. I still hope that the MoSys memory is 1T-SRAM-Q which is (nearly) as fast as the regular memory but only takes half the space. So if Nintendo is concerned about space limitations they should use that memory. Then they can fit in 256MB which takes only the space of 128MB. Well the downsize is that the memory is more expensive and it seems Nintendo tries to save at all the wrong places.

 

If the games really take up a dual layer DVD I expect a lot more loading (not longer) but more - in the style of Metroid Prime, GTA, etc.

[DCK]

This actually sounds much like the Xbox 360's superfast eDRAM embedded on the GPU which is mainly used as a framebuffer. It's also made by NEC.

 

Update (IGN):

 

The announcements confirm IGN's previous reports that the Wii would make use of 1T-SRAM both in an embedded and individual application. Our most up-to-date specs promise 16MB of eDRAM (integrated in NEC's LSI chips) and 88MB of 1T-SRAM, for a total of 104MB of system RAM, not counting the allegedly accessible 512MB of Flash RAM or the ATI Hollywood GPU's on-board memory, which is said to amount to 3MB.

Bullocks. That 16 MB is the same as the GameCube's slowass ARAM, which can't count as eDRAM (not 'embedded' in any way) at all and simply wouldn't be worth making a press release about. Such a shame IGN has to keep reconfirming their own guesswork. The Wii memory is not going to be Cube memory + 64 MB. It just doesn't make sense.

[James McGeachie]

It does make sense, because it seems they're keeping the architecture as close as possible to Gamecube's so they can achieve backwards compatibility without any emulation or need for additional hardware.

 

I see no need to doubt IGN about the specs now when they've said they wouldn't report them if they weren't very sure they were authentic and now this recent press release fits in perfectly with their previously reported specs, which also make sense with the type of games we've been seeing on Wii so far. It has nothing to do with proper Wii development kits not being out until recently because usually developers aim for what they expect to achieve before they have a final kit.

[system_error]

I agree with James. Also eDRAM means "Enhanced Dynamic RAM" which is just faster than standard DRAM but slower than MoSys 1T-SRAM (15-20ns versus less than 10ns access time) so it would actually make perfect sense. A smaller buffer with slower RAM for the OS, VC, sound, ....

[Hellfire]

These specs are ultimately useless without us knowing the processors Cache, since that makes a huge difference.

[conzer16]

There was a technology feature in one of the Irish Sunday papers (Sunday Tribune) that was all about Havok.

 

Only thing was not one mention of Nintendo. All about PS3 and Xbox360. Pity really....

[Hellfire]

Doesn't 360 have 10 mb of dram?

[pedrocasilva]

Doesn't 360 have 10 mb of dram?

Yes, 10 MB of eDram (embedded).

 

Still... I don't understand why all this fuzz over this... anyone who didn't knew that Wii wouldn't be a powerhouse in specs on paper must be blind... IGN saying something like "as wii doesn't support HD so it won't have 512 MB" is like... being captain obvious, this does not give IGN reason at all... what I complain everytime IGN speaks is the way they see things the way they show ignorance towards Gamecube architecture and consequently... Wii's; they might see the final specs and still they won't know what's going on but still they'll always draw their stupid conclusions.

 

As for the RAM I also think they could use a little bit more, even if cheaper (and slower) DRAM but it is already a pretty big leap from GC and Xbox... bare in mind that Xbox tecnically only had 48 MB of RAM available since it took 16 MB to do the Z-buffer.

 

we're talking about double the space to store resolution/detail... and the ability to double the variety and things like that, that's not bad at all.

 

As for the rest... only time will tell... In rough numbersHD consoles waste 3 to 4 times more RAM in textures to obtain the same quality (definition) so I believe Wii would be confortable with 3 times less RAM but that gives 512:3=170,6... if they could make displacement mapping with less RAM hit we would be right in front of a winner though.

[system_error]

Yes, 10 MB of eDram (embedded).

 

Still... I don't understand why all this fuzz over this... anyone who didn't knew that Wii wouldn't be a powerhouse in specs on paper must be blind... IGN saying something like "as wii doesn't support HD so it won't have 512 MB" is like... being captain obvious, this does not give IGN reason at all... what I complain everytime IGN speaks is the way they see things the way they show ignorance towards Gamecube architecture and consequently... Wii's; they might see the final specs and still they won't know what's going on but still they'll always draw their stupid conclusions.

 

As for the RAM I also think they could use a little bit more, even if cheaper (and slower) DRAM but it is already a pretty big leap from GC and Xbox... bare in mind that Xbox tecnically only had 48 MB of RAM available since it took 16 MB to do the Z-buffer.

 

we're talking about double the space to store resolution/detail... and the ability to double the variety and things like that, that's not bad at all.

 

As for the rest... only time will tell... In rough numbersHD consoles waste 3 to 4 times more RAM in textures to obtain the same quality (definition) so I believe Wii would be confortable with 3 times less RAM but that gives 512:3=170,6... if they could make displacement mapping with less RAM hit we would be right in front of a winner though.

 

I like your thoughts but bare in mind that developers now have about 6 times the disc space they can fill with sound, textures, animations, ... . This means in theory that Nintendo has to increase the memory accordingly to the new disc size. So far most games look like they could be shipped on a GC mini-DVD but in 2007 they will use higher resolution textures and put a lot of stuff into their games. I prefer games that load everything into the main memory - takes a bit longer but is better in my eyes and if that is the case developers might have a problem with less than 128MB RAM.

[Hellfire]

Having a bigger disk doesn't mean you need to fill it. Most GC games worked as well as XBOX games, even with everything compressed. And what about the gpu texture cache? That also makes a huge difference, GC had 1 mb, while XBOX had less than 256 kb.

If they do have 16 mb (which is the minimun since GC also has 16 mb) of edram, it's more than 360 and considering that edram is used for things like sound and data that doesn't need to be accessed quickly, 88 mb of 1T-SRAM, might be sufficient.

Also GCs processor had 256 L2 and 64k L1 Cache (which is more than XBOX), so Wii will have at least the same which is reasonable for a non HD console. As far as I know accessing the Cache is much better than accessing the main memory. Looking at what GC does with Zelda, I'm not the least bit worried with Wii's graphical performance, the problem is that devs at E3 were lazy.

I'm more worried about the games and the use of the controller than graphics.

[pedrocasilva]

I like your thoughts but bare in mind that developers now have about 6 times the disc space they can fill with sound, textures, animations, ... . This means in theory that Nintendo has to increase the memory accordingly to the new disc size. So far most games look like they could be shipped on a GC mini-DVD but in 2007 they will use higher resolution textures and put a lot of stuff into their games. I prefer games that load everything into the main memory - takes a bit longer but is better in my eyes and if that is the case developers might have a problem with less than 128MB RAM.

not necessarily, look at X360... it's stuck on dual layer DVD's, the fact that it was shipped like that makes it standard, even if they release a upgrade afterwards for it to use HD DVD or something.

 

that will be standard till the end of the generation, just like multiplatform games often looked bad this generation due to be made for all consoles thus being able to run even on PS2, some Xbox and GC ports didn't even get a S3TC upgrade.

 

Kameo.. a 13 hour game takes as much as 7,9 GB, in X360 the media space didn't increase, but the need for it did. It's very rare for a Xbox game using S3TC to fill up a dual layer disc. (I don't know if any game did) but filling up a disc just with that would be massive, you would probably need orchestrated soundtracks, lots of voice acting and FMV to achieve that... on X360 it's so easy that a RPG developer once said before release they were needing at least 3 DVD's to fit all the game in and were trying to cut it short into two DVD's.

 

In my point of view... X360 with DVD's is almost the same as if PS2 used CD's. (I know some games did at the beggining, but still DVD drive was standard.)

 

I think Wii staying with SD will have no problem at all with dual layer DVD's, it's all it needs... although of course more would be bliss...

 

I see where you are going though... with GC and Xbox in mind... outputting Halo 2 scenarios on GC wouldn't be possible due to RAM limitations (only with toned down textures)... but metroid prime on Xbox wouldn't be possible either... not without severe loadings.

 

While that might happen, one of the problems: disc space is solved, thus if you have a well crafted exclusive game you can really use it to your advantage to show much bigger enviroments.

 

But it's like I said... I'd pump wii with a little more RAM 192 MB total RAM sounds nice doesn't it?

[system_error]

Having a bigger disk doesn't mean you need to fill it. Most GC games worked as well as XBOX games, even with everything compressed. And what about the gpu texture cache? That also makes a huge difference, GC had 1 mb, while XBOX had less than 256 kb.

If they do have 16 mb (which is the minimun since GC also has 16 mb) of edram, it's more than 360 and considering that edram is used for things like sound and data that doesn't need to be accessed quickly, 88 mb of 1T-SRAM, might be sufficient.

Also GCs processor had 256 L2 and 64k L1 Cache (which is more than XBOX), so Wii will have at least the same which is reasonable for a non HD console. As far as I know accessing the Cache is much better than accessing the main memory. Looking at what GC does with Zelda, I'm not the least bit worried with Wii's graphical performance, the problem is that devs at E3 were lazy.

I'm more worried about the games and the use of the controller than graphics.

 

 

Well but developers are restricted on content wether it concerns music, videos, textures - it is much easier if you don't have to worry about disk space and/or compressing things (which takes CPU/GPU power).

I agree with you the GC cache was superior to the XBOX but that advantage was not as big as it could be. XBOX had enough raw power to overcome those limitations and since the 360 now uses PowerPC architecture that advantage is as good as gone. Cache is not as important for textures and average loading times when it comes to graphics.

 

Don't confuse the eDRAM of the 360 with the statement from IGN - the XBOX has a 10MB eDRAM buffer ON the GPU (so access time is close to SRAM/cache) whereas the Wii GPU has 3MB (if you believe the IGN specs) like the Gamecube (Embedded frame buffer : 2MB Embedded, texture cache : 1MB) had. Those 16MB "embedded" DRAM probably are chips mounted on the LSI for general purpose stuff. Similar to the flash memory chip.

 

Right now developers seem to be either really lazy or unable to code properly which is a surprise for me. If I compare Splinter Cell 4 and Red Steel which are both from Ubisoft it seems that the hardware is the limitation not the developers (I know that Ubisoft has different studios but there is still a huge gap).

To be honest my biggest worries are that Nintendo still uses a single core architecture when everyone knows that multicore is the future - even now a lot of applications gain a boost by dual core CPUs and I guess over the next 5 years this will increase even more. Also porting might be a bit easier.

 

not necessarily, look at X360... it's stuck on dual layer DVD's, the fact that it was shipped like that makes it standard, even if they release a upgrade afterwards for it to use HD DVD or something.

 

that will be standard till the end of the generation, just like multiplatform games often looked bad this generation due to be made for all consoles thus being able to run even on PS2, some Xbox and GC ports didn't even get a S3TC upgrade.

 

Kameo.. a 13 hour game takes as much as 7,9 GB, in X360 the media space didn't increase, but the need for it did. It's very rare for a Xbox game using S3TC to fill up a dual layer disc. (I don't know if any game did) but filling up a disc just with that would be massive, you would probably need orchestrated soundtracks, lots of voice acting and FMV to achieve that... on X360 it's so easy that a RPG developer once said before release they were needing at least 3 DVD's to fit all the game in and were trying to cut it short into two DVD's.

 

In my point of view... X360 with DVD's is almost the same as if PS2 used CD's. (I know some games did at the beggining, but still DVD drive was standard.)

 

I think Wii staying with SD will have no problem at all with dual layer DVD's, it's all it needs... although of course more would be bliss...

 

I see where you are going though... with GC and Xbox in mind... outputting Halo 2 scenarios on GC wouldn't be possible due to RAM limitations (only with toned down textures)... but metroid prime on Xbox wouldn't be possible either... not without severe loadings.

 

While that might happen, one of the problems: disc space is solved, thus if you have a well crafted exclusive game you can really use it to your advantage to show much bigger enviroments.

 

But it's like I said... I'd pump wii with a little more RAM 192 MB total RAM sounds nice doesn't it?

 

I am not worried about the disc space at all but if I think further I guess everyone would like to see "better" textures. Sharp, detailed and bigger. I am not a fan of John Carmack who thinks that textures are the alpha and omega of gaming but they are important. Not only textures need space but also modells/buildings/etc with a higer polygon count. Lightning data, physics and such things add up to the space already needed.

 

So if you beef up the content from a game like Metroid Prime and take advantage of the new disc space (which is quite big in my opinion) you need much memory. Either you preload as much as you can at the start and then you have to load different maps/levels each time you finish something or you stream everything.

More memory means less streaming and in games like Metroid Prime it is a huge advantage because I noticed those "wait until the door opens" loading times.

 

Nintendo has proven that they are next-gen with innovations but now I want to prove them that they also understand that hardware is an important factor aswell. So far the games we saw are only the tip of the iceberg - nothing which let me say "WOW". Pretty obvious use for the controller but that will change over time. Hardware stays the same for ~5 years so I expect a console which will still look good at the end of its life cycle.