Doctor Who

[LegoMan1031]

I just assumed that was a way to cover up the switch, the perfect way if anything.

 

What he says at the end pretty much confirms that he knows he's going to die - he was always going to find out and this was actually quite a good way to do it.

 

Yep, agreed!

 

Another plus imo for moffats direction!

[Grazza]

It's a eight mess, I'm looking forward to them trying to explain it all.

 

Agree with you and Retro Link. This is what bugs me about Doctor Who nowadays. Are they actually trying to entertain you? I think not.

 

The seasons are now full of mystery after mystery, so that you never know what the heck it's all about until the last episode (if then). You know what this is like? American TV. There's cliffhanger after cliffhanger. Nothing's ever resolved.

 

Now go back to when Russell T Davies was head writer - he sure as heck wasn't scared of entertaining you. OK, he dropped in a few key words, like "Bad Wolf", "Torchwood" or "Mister Saxon", or kept mentioning that bees were disappearing and aliens were vacating their planets, but he kept it in the background where it belonged. RTD tried to entertain, and he succeeded more often than not.

 

Where is the wit and verve of episodes like "Love and Monsters", where the Doctor hardly featured, and the whole thing was set to ELO's Mr Blue Sky? Or the immensely brilliant and succinct "Smith & Jones", where a hospital was warped up to the Moon until the Judoon had caught the blood-sucking alien. As head writer, he oversaw gems from Gareth Roberts like "The Shakespeare Code" and "The Unicorn & the Wasp". There's nothing like that now.

 

When I sat down to watch Doctor Who I knew I'd get a great performance from Eccleston/Tennant, I'd more than likely get a few laughs from it and, if nothing else, I'd at least understand the plot, which, if it foreshadowed future episodes, would do so in a way that didn't leave you baffled. If only we could return to that sort of quality.

[Sec]

Noticed a voice saying "you have never risen higher" possibly a remark to rivers very early mentioning of the doctor where she says she first met him was his highest moment followed by his very worst ?? ?? ?

[Cube]

... mind you he knew it wasn't the real Amy didn't he!... but still...

 

No, no, no. It IS the real Amy. Everything the Ganger Amy did was controlled 100% by Amy and, up until the melting point, is exactly what Amy would have did if she was there. And the real Amy experienced everything as though she was there herself.

 

I like more flowing episodes rather than lots of separate stories.

 

Where is the wit and verve of episodes like "Love and Monsters",

 

...

 

...

 

What???

 

Oh and random thought: The Doctor's shoes are now living.

[flameboy]

No, no, no. It IS the real Amy. Everything the Ganger Amy did was controlled 100% by Amy and, up until the melting point, is exactly what Amy would have did if she was there. And the real Amy experienced everything as though she was there herself.

 

I like more flowing episodes rather than lots of separate stories.

 

 

 

...

 

...

 

What???

 

Oh and random thought: The Doctor's shoes are now living.

 

Proof? I just thought they had a vague "link" of sorts and were only in direct control when in strapped into those brace mechanisms? Or you suggesting Amy has this control as well from wherever she is? Guess it depends if the Amy ganger was one being used as originally conceived under control or a "rogue" one?

[Cube]

Proof? I just thought they had a vague "link" of sorts and were only in direct control when in strapped into those brace mechanisms? Or you suggesting Amy has this control as well from wherever she is?

 

That's what was hinted in the episode. Plus, Moffat described it like that on Confidential.

[Hamishmash]

Sure, the new era of Doctor Who might not be to everyone's tastes but then the series has lasted almost 50 years. It needs to change, experiment and have seasons unlike any other. The RTD era had an equal amount of fan backlash and every era is going to have lovers and haters. I'm loving Moffat's take and I loved RTD's take and when whoever takes over takes over I'm probably going to love their take, even if it's wildly different.

 

The show wouldn't be still around if it wasn't for experimentation.

 

ALSO - Just a thought.

 

I think Amy might have been FLESH for a long time. Perhaps even as long... as Flesh & Stone.

 

After all... "the only water in the forest is the river". Amy might even have been "flesh" since the Eleventh Hour... maybe in the 2 years in between the main part of the episode and the end scene. Afterall, Moffat said there was something in that first episode he can't believe people hadn't noticed.

[Retro_Link]

That's what was hinted in the episode. Plus, Moffat described it like that on Confidential.

Are you sure?... Amy would need to be strapped into a control unit to be using the Ganger as a control body... which she clearly wasn't. Isn't it just the case that like all the other Gangers, Amy's had 'evolved' but as flameboy said, still shares the occasional thought/emotional link with the 'host'?

 

After all... "the only water in the forest is the river".

How does that quote relate to Amy?

 

Also...

 

http://tv.uk.msn.com/news/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=157962782

 

Daleks to 'rest' says Dr Who boss

 

The Daleks, the monsters which have terrified generations of children with their cries of "exterminate", are being sent into temporary exile.

 

Doctor Who boss Steven Moffat said that he had decided to give the Doctor's sworn enemies "a rest" for a while.

 

He told Radio Times magazine that the fearsome creatures would have "trudged away" by now after being defeated so many times.

 

Moffat, the BBC One show's executive producer, said: "They aren't going to make an appearance for a while ... We thought it was about time to give them a rest."

 

He added: "There's a problem with the Daleks. They are the most famous of the Doctor's adversaries and the most frequent, which means they are the most reliably defeatable enemies in the universe.

 

"They have been defeated by the Doctor about 400 times. Surely they should just see the Tardis approaching, say, 'Oh. It's him again', and trudge away."

 

The Daleks were voted the scariest villains in the history of Doctor Who in a poll of 21,000 fans in 2007. They have made regular appearances in the long-running science fiction show since appearing in the first series.

 

Created by Terry Nation, the Daleks were resurrected as the Doctor's most feared enemy when the show was brought back in 2005.

 

Asked whether the plotlines of the current series had become too complex, Moffat, also the show's head writer, said: "Well, you have to pay attention.

 

"You can't watch it when you are doing the ironing. And you certainly can't watch it when you are tweeting. You have to sit down and focus, and a child audience certainly does that."

I'd agree there's a problem in that the Daleks, but there always has been. Unless you regularly show them as being capable of killing The Doctor, how can they possibly be sold as his biggest adversary. Their constant [easy] defeat has turned them into a bit of a joke.

 

But I'd also argue the case with a number of The Doctors classic villians. I honestly can't believe the Cybermen are cropping up again already... having seen them in last season finale. You just don't get any 'scare factor' or sense of danger from some of the classics anymore, because you already know how it's likely to end... they don't have the impact they once did on black and white TV. The Cybermen needed/need a storyline that will enable a far more dramatic scarier redesign I think.

 

One thing I will congratulate this series on, is I think they have genuinely upped the 'scare factor'... Ep.1/2 The Silence Ep.4 Amy and Rory's torment inside the Tardis corridors/plus The Ood Ep.5/6 The Flesh. Good job on that front.

[LegoMan1031]

Sure, the new era of Doctor Who might not be to everyone's tastes but then the series has lasted almost 50 years. It needs to change, experiment and have seasons unlike any other. The RTD era had an equal amount of fan backlash and every era is going to have lovers and haters. I'm loving Moffat's take and I loved RTD's take and when whoever takes over takes over I'm probably going to love their take, even if it's wildly different.

 

The show wouldn't be still around if it wasn't for experimentation.

 

ALSO - Just a thought.

 

I think Amy might have been FLESH for a long time. Perhaps even as long... as Flesh & Stone.

 

After all... "the only water in the forest is the river". Amy might even have been "flesh" since the Eleventh Hour... maybe in the 2 years in between the main part of the episode and the end scene. Afterall, Moffat said there was something in that first episode he can't believe people hadn't noticed.

 

There was a few little 'odd' things from The Eleventh Hour like for example the duck pond, how amy knew it was a duck pond yet there are never any ducks no ducks!

 

But i just assumed that was to do with the cracks erasing things from time and nothing more...

 

Plus: I would think that whenever Amy was taken it would be 9 months story telling wise, since it looks like she is about to give birth, and the hints are that the doctor is the father.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Mike1988uk

[Happenstance]

I thought it was quite obvious that Amy was in complete control of the ganger and just didnt realise it, thats why she was seeing flashes of the eyepatch woman, because it was flashes of her real life. The doctor even says to her something like "I will find you". I dont think he'd say that otherwise. And of course the action of seeing Amy wake up as soon as her ganger melts was another way of showing it.

[Retro_Link]

Amy was always awake though... it was her seeing the hatch open that was then carried over into the mind of the Ganger.

[LegoMan1031]

I thought it was quite obvious that Amy was in complete control of the ganger and just didnt realise it, thats why she was seeing flashes of the eyepatch woman, because it was flashes of her real life. The doctor even says to her something like "I will find you". I dont think he'd say that otherwise. And of course the action of seeing Amy wake up as soon as her ganger melts was another way of showing it.

 

Thats pretty much how i have taken it. The only reason that ganger amy could see the eyepatch lady was maybe that chamber she is in blocks what her real body can see and her mind is elsewhere but when the hatch is opened for eye patch lady to check on her it creates a gap in the illusion.

 

Remember the first thing eye patch lady said was that Amy was dreaming so it is quite possible that amy was just dreaming the whole time in that chamber except when the hatch opened.

 

And i am going along the lines that this is a more advanced ganger or been manipulated in an advanced way so the harness is not required etc.

[Serebii]

Proof? I just thought they had a vague "link" of sorts and were only in direct control when in strapped into those brace mechanisms? Or you suggesting Amy has this control as well from wherever she is? Guess it depends if the Amy ganger was one being used as originally conceived under control or a "rogue" one?

Don't forget that the harness stuff here is the early version technology, as said by The Doctor. Amy was clearly using a later form of the technology

[Mr_Odwin]

I thought it was quite obvious that Amy was in complete control of the ganger and just didnt realise it, thats why she was seeing flashes of the eyepatch woman, because it was flashes of her real life. The doctor even says to her something like "I will find you". I dont think he'd say that otherwise. And of course the action of seeing Amy wake up as soon as her ganger melts was another way of showing it.

 

Also my interpretation of it.

[Retro_Link]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but what would be the purpose of Amy controlling the Ganger?... it's not as though she ever made use of it... why is it not just a Ganger that thinks it's Amy?

[Serebii]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but what would be the purpose of Amy controlling the Ganger?... it's not as though she ever made use of it... why is it not just a Ganger that thinks it's Amy?

Hard to say, think we'll find out next week but my thought is that it's so they can get what they want without Amy resisting

[Agent Gibbs]

Thats pretty much how i have taken it. The only reason that ganger amy could see the eyepatch lady was maybe that chamber she is in blocks what her real body can see and her mind is elsewhere but when the hatch is opened for eye patch lady to check on her it creates a gap in the illusion.

 

Remember the first thing eye patch lady said was that Amy was dreaming so it is quite possible that amy was just dreaming the whole time in that chamber except when the hatch opened.

 

And i am going along the lines that this is a more advanced ganger or been manipulated in an advanced way so the harness is not required etc.

 

I thought it was quite obvious that Amy was in complete control of the ganger and just didnt realise it, thats why she was seeing flashes of the eyepatch woman, because it was flashes of her real life. The doctor even says to her something like "I will find you". I dont think he'd say that otherwise. And of course the action of seeing Amy wake up as soon as her ganger melts was another way of showing it.

Don't forget that the harness stuff here is the early version technology, as said by The Doctor. Amy was clearly using a later form of the technology

I just rewatched a little scene as i have been pondering something... The idea that Amy told the real doctor that she watched him die and not the flesh as we don't actually know when the doctor swapped with the flesh.

 

Near the end when they are about to part ways the following was said:

 

Flesh Doctor: "Well my death arrives i suppose"

Real Doctor: "But this one we are not invited too"

Flesh Doctor: "Parden?"

Real Doctor: "Nothing"

 

A passing remark that he knows he was invited to his own death!?

 

 

 

It was also my understanding that (once the switch was revealed), that Amy had told the “real†Doctor about his death

 

It was also my understanding that Amy was under complete control of the ganger also, and that she was completely unaware she wasn’t in her own body, due to the advanced technology used by the eye patch lady. The goal of this was simply so Amy wasn’t aware of the difference and neither was the Doctor for as long as possible so they could put their plan into motion, and 9 months ish is a pretty long time to throw the Doctor off the scent

 

I had a horrible thought the other night…Since River said she’d known the Doctor from being a child…and since she’s Ginger….and a time traveller…..that she could be Amy’s child…..so more river, forever more

[Hamishmash]

?

 

How does that quote relate to Amy?

 

 

Amy Pond.

 

River and Pond... both types of water. But "the only water in the forest is the river" means that Pond wasn't really there.

[Agent Gibbs]

Amy Pond.

 

River and Pond... both types of water. But "the only water in the forest is the river" means that Pond wasn't really there.

 

wow that makes sense

[Nintendohnut]

Amy Pond.

 

River and Pond... both types of water. But "the only water in the forest is the river" means that Pond wasn't really there.

 

This. This is epic win. The best reasoning behind any thing ever. You're a genius Spüne (sorry, can't stop calling you that).

[Jamba]

Very much looking forward to next episode:

 

"]Well as others have said, it's time for River to kill her "Good Man" however I seem to remember the Doctor directly referring to Rory as a good man.

 

In the trailer he is also back in his Roman Armour.

 

 

On another point, did anyone think that they really missed a trick by not going into Rory's sympathy for the flesh a bit more considering he was an Auton? It seemed to be glossed over quite badly.

[Hamishmash]

This. This is epic win. The best reasoning behind any thing ever. You're a genius Spüne (sorry, can't stop calling you that).

 

And the reason the episode was called Flesh and Stone. I think, like the Doctor said, she's been Flesh for a reeeeeeeally long time.

 

Very much looking forward to next episode:

 

"]Well as others have said, it's time for River to kill her "Good Man" however I seem to remember the Doctor directly referring to Rory as a good man.

 

In the trailer he is also back in his Roman Armour.

 

 

On another point, did anyone think that they really missed a trick by not going into Rory's sympathy for the flesh a bit more considering he was an Auton? It seemed to be glossed over quite badly.

 

I agree but I think it was nice enough subtly done. The Doctor said to Rory "you're a lump of plastic with delusions of humanity" and that really resonated when fleshy girl was all "I am that person who's name escapes me!" He understood what it was like to be a copy.

[Cube]

And the reason the episode was called Flesh and Stone. I think, like the Doctor said, she's been Flesh for a reeeeeeeally long time.

 

It's just a reference to "Flesh and Bone".

 

Flesh = Humans

Stone = Angels.

 

Nothing more to gleam from that.

 

It happened after last season. As for a point in the season finale everything outside the Earth was completely utterly destroyed - which would have meant that Amy would have died and the ganger would have stopped working (plus they said she was a ganger throughout episodes 1-6 of this season on Confidential).

[Jamba]

There is a point in this season where she knows she's pregnant. Only after she forgets (or thinks that she isn't) does the Doctor's scan goes weird. This is where I think she gets nabbed.

[Happenstance]

I think at this point it will make the most sense if she was nabbed during the months she was running around the US on her own investigating the silence.