N-E Café Podcast

[lostmario]

3 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

For example, I bought The Last of Us Part II for £25 yesterday. Half the price it was a few months ago at its release.

How have you managed to hold off buying this for so long? I doubt you've managed to avoid spoilers until now.

I think I got it a week after launch due to spoilers popping up all over youtube and not wanting them to ruin the experience for me.

[Hero-of-Time]

7 minutes ago, lostmario said:

How have you managed to hold off buying this for so long? I doubt you've managed to avoid spoilers until now.

I think I got it a week after launch due to spoilers popping up all over youtube and not wanting them to ruin the experience for me.

I've done really well. I still know nothing about the story ( don't go on YouTube much these days ) but I have a feeling how certain events may play out. 

I wasn't fussed about buying it straight away mainly because I hate gore and with the graphics being so realistic I was very put off by what I seen in the trailers. Plus, a few people I know have played it and either didn't care for it or dropped the game because it dragged on.

[nekunando]

On 26/11/2020 at 6:39 AM, Hero-of-Time said:

This has been on my mind for well over a year now. I keep debating whether or not to trade in my PS4 collection for the very reason you speak of. I kinda want to but it's hard letting go of such a nice collection of games. 

I think I would have traded all of my PS4 physical games in for digital versions if not for Drive Club! It's no longer available digitally so I have to keep the disc around for that because I love the game

I also bought The Last of Us: Part II last week, @lostmario, and have managed to steer clear of spoilers. I never watched a review or any other material other than a trailer a couple of years ago

I am aware that there has been controversy regarding the story but I have absolutely no idea what it will be about.. and it kinda makes me even more excited to find out

I'll be looking forward to sharing thoughts with you, @Hero-of-Time, though I suspect you'll progress significantly faster than myself

I'm only 2-3 hours in so far but.. yeh.. stuff has happened!

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by nekunando

[Jonnas]

Okay, I'm finally back on my laptop, and I have a fair few issues to comment on. I'm aware this week's episode has already been recorded, but nevertheless, my take on the issue H-o-T brought up is...

I don't really see a negative in updating the game. Not in the way Mario 3D All-Stars did it. I don't think it's "a slap in the face" for people who already completed it either, because one of two things happens when an update comes: either the person feels like the update was needed and warranted (in which case they feel compelled to try out the new version of the game, and play it for as long as they want); or they don't care enough about the update to go back (in which case, no harm no foul).

But that's assuming the updates are strictly minor (or non-intrusive). Sometimes games change a lot since launch, and I can see how one can miss simpler earlier versions. Cases like WoW Classic are very rare, though I suppose communities can do a lot to restore or reproduce fondly remembered aspects of "Classic" versions of games (like the Final Fantasy IX remaster patch, or the "Woolseyfied" ultimate translation for FFVI)

With "Games as Service" that change dramatically with each update, I feel like the zeitgeist IS the experience, and it's up to the player to face the game and respective community with that mindset. Some players will just say "Remember when Takumi was top tier at launch?" and it just comes with the territory. It's part of it, and it has to be.

Regarding patches making physical games obsolete... The information stays in your console, right? If it then becomes tricky/impossible to get the "final" version years after the fact, I figure this falls into the same territory of fans "restoring" that version. Ideally, we'd have a standard way of accessing any version we want... I wonder if one could create a digital platform or a library of sorts, dedicated to this type of preservation?

Finally, is it worth it to buy games at launch? From a monetary perspective, no. I've never done that, except with Nintendo games (which never lower their prices). I've also thought these rapid permanent price drops are short-sighted and unsustainable for a while now, but that's a broader topic for another time.

[WackerJr]

3 hours ago, nekunando said:

I also bought The Last of Us: Part II last week, @lostmario, and have managed to steer clear of spoilers. I never watched a review or any other material other than a trailer a couple of years ago

 

I’m in a similar position where I’ve managed to avoid all spoilers so far.  I got the game as a gift back in July, but haven’t gotten around to playing it yet.  I expect you all playing it & talking positively about it will get me to finally get around to playing it! 😀

[Hero-of-Time]

19 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

I don't really see a negative in updating the game. Not in the way Mario 3D All-Stars did it. I don't think it's "a slap in the face" for people who already completed it either, because one of two things happens when an update comes: either the person feels like the update was needed and warranted (in which case they feel compelled to try out the new version of the game, and play it for as long as they want); or they don't care enough about the update to go back (in which case, no harm no foul).

Finally, is it worth it to buy games at launch? From a monetary perspective, no. I've never done that, except with Nintendo games (which never lower their prices). I've also thought these rapid permanent price drops are short-sighted and unsustainable for a while now, but that's a broader topic for another time.

The 3rd thing that happens is that a person finishes the game before the patch arrives, gets annoyed and then doesn't get to experience the new settings for a while because they've just played through the game. Had I picked up the collection on day 1 I certainly wouldn't have been happy if I had finished Sunshine before the update, which most likely have been what would have happened. Weren't the Cube button prompts kept in the game? If so, it suggests they were always going to add this support and if that was the case then they should have told people ahead of time. 

As for the price drops, many have said that is unsustainable and yet this has been going on ever since the PSOne generation, which was about 20 years ago now. Sure, it's more aggressive now but that's probably because of the amount competition on each platform. Digital storefronts are even more aggressive. Just gotta look at the eShop and Steam to see the heavy discounting that goes on.

[Nicktendo]

12 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

The 3rd thing that happens is that a person finishes the game before the patch arrives, gets annoyed and then doesn't get to experience the new settings for a while because they've just played through the game. Had I picked up the collection on day 1 I certainly wouldn't have been happy if I had finished Sunshine before the update, which most likely have been what would have happened. Weren't the Cube button prompts kept in the game? If so, it suggests they were always going to add this support and if that was the case then they should have told people ahead of time. 

As for the price drops, many have said that is unsustainable and yet this has been going on ever since the PSOne generation, which was about 20 years ago now. Sure, it's more aggressive now but that's probably because of the amount competition on each platform. Digital storefronts are even more aggressive. Just gotta look at the eShop and Steam to see the heavy discounting that goes on.

I think for digital games, especially indies, the "wait for a sale" mentality is something the developers take into account now. Hence why we see 10% day one / pre-order discounts and not a whole lot of highly-rated stuff releasing for under £20 anymore. Wasn't Shantae 5 like £30 or something?! At least that way they pick up some big money on day one from the die-hards, and lower the cost for the rest after a couple of months. There's a few games I'm willing to get at full price (hell, I'll pay £50 for the next Hollow Knight), but I do think indie devs on the eShop know ahead of time that the real sales are going to come once the first discount is applied. I don't like this approach all that much, but the Wishlist allows me to get away with it on both Steam and the eShop. 

I also think that's why the jump to £70 is not all that big of a deal. The vast majority will just wait for a sale and those who are super keen will jump right in. It fractures the Zeitgeist a little bit, but at the end of the day, if it didn't work, the publishers wouldn't be doing it. I've long stopped caring about paying a game in the moment. I barely consume any gaming content outside of Sacred Symbols and occasionally RFN just because I like the banter. RFN are always behind the curve anyway. I'm happy to pick up a game for a good price later on if I know I'll enjoy it, and then there are those few select series I'm ready to jump in for on day one, no matter the cost. However, that's not so I can be part of some club, it's so I can get my hands on something I've been looking forward to for a long time. I have no issues with jumping in at full price because a) I know I'll get my money's worth and b) it's an anticipated release. Everything else can wait. 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Nicktendo

[Hero-of-Time]

5 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

I think for digital games, especially indies, the "wait for a sale" mentality is something the developers take into account now. Hence why we see 10% day one / pre-order discounts and not a whole lot of highly-rated stuff releasing for under £20 anymore. Wasn't Shantae 5 like £30 or something?! At least that way they pick up some big money on day one from the die-hards, and lower the cost for the rest after a couple of months. There's a few games I'm willing to get at full price (hell, I'll pay £50 for the next Hollow Knight), but I do think indie devs on the eShop know ahead of time that the real sales are going to come once the first discount is applied. I don't like this approach all that much, but the Wishlist allows me to get away with it on both Steam and the eShop. 

Yeah, there's been a few indie developers speak up about the eShop and how the only way they can get sales these days is by heavily discounting their games in order to compete. It's all about visability and getting into the best sellers chart is a major part of getting the sales they need and want. Unfortunately, in order to do this they need to slash the price of the game to crazy levels.

Just having a look at it now and there are a bunch of games ranging from 8p to £2 which are dominating the digital chart. 

[Jonnas]

19 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

The 3rd thing that happens is that a person finishes the game before the patch arrives, gets annoyed and then doesn't get to experience the new settings for a while because they've just played through the game. Had I picked up the collection on day 1 I certainly wouldn't have been happy if I had finished Sunshine before the update, which most likely have been what would have happened. Weren't the Cube button prompts kept in the game? If so, it suggests they were always going to add this support and if that was the case then they should have told people ahead of time.

...Sorry. I really don't see it. One doesn't need to replay the entirety of Sunshine to experience the changes, only the missions/places where they felt needed. If the player is not experiencing the new settings for a while, it's because the player doesn't feel like they improve the experience enough to justify that.

Like, back in the day I'd get annoyed at hearing that the PS2 versions of Resident Evil 4 or Tales of Symphonia had a bunch of cool content the original Gamecube version was never going to get. But if I got to have that extra content as well, I don't see the point in being too bothered by that, even if I personally won't be experiencing it for a while.

19 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

As for the price drops, many have said that is unsustainable and yet this has been going on ever since the PSOne generation, which was about 20 years ago now. Sure, it's more aggressive now but that's probably because of the amount competition on each platform. Digital storefronts are even more aggressive. Just gotta look at the eShop and Steam to see the heavy discounting that goes on.

I don't recall PSOne prices being permanently slashed. Even in the PS2 era, only Platinum cases got to have permanent discounts.

The heavy discounting in Steam and eShop are occasional sales, and IMO, is a much better system than permanent price cuts, for a variety of reasons (publishers still get to make occasional sales with the full price, the flash sales can be rare enough that they fell special or common enough to get extra sales (depending on the game), the publishers even get to see spikes from multiple "price drops" per year instead of just the one). It's when a 60€ game permanently becomes a 20€ game - and that becomes a common practice - that I get bothered: that's just asking for buyer's remorse, and ensures diminishing returns in the long term.

[Hero-of-Time]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the first point.

Not sure what it was like in Portugal but games certainly got quick price drops here in the UK back in the era I spoke of. I could often get discounted PSOne/Saturn and on occasion N64 games, at Woolworths, Charlie's, Grainger Games and Electronic Boutiques/Game a few months after release and long before they would arrive on the platinum/greatest hits range. I remember cleaning house one time at Charlies on Saturn games. I got a bunch of new games, including MegaMan X3 for £10 each. Crazy to think how much that goes for now. You see, this is why I don't like selling my games now!  

[Jonnas]

I do recall finding dirt-cheap games on HMV when I first visited London (I got both Little King's Story and Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn for less than 10£ overall, which was crazy to me), but I thought those were pre-owned.

In Portugal, during the PS2/GCN era, even used games (only available at GameStation at the time) would go for 20-35€, with only used Game Boy games being any lower than that (10-15€). I wasn't paying much attention to the used game market before then, but I know new games never dropped their prices.

[Londragon]

 

N-E Café [054] This Podcast Needs a Patch! is now live at all good podcast providers.

 

Recorded on the 29th of November, 2020.  

Episode 54 of the N-E Café has hosts Lee Davies, Gregory Moffett and Nick Lone discuss the week’s events in NintendoLand, talk about their recently played games, and discuss H-O-T’s listener question about Day One Purchases.

This is episode 54 of the N-E Café Podcast, an N-Europe Podcast. Enjoy!

⦁ Intro Music: Splatoon 2 - Deluge Dirge

⦁ Introductions: 0:00:26

⦁ Nintendo News: 0:03:14

⦁ Download Delights: 0:32:14

⦁ Luigi’s Mansion 3: 0:41:45

⦁ Pure Pool: 0:54:05

⦁ Panzer Dragoon: 1:14:26

⦁ Day One Purchases: 1:24:50

⦁ Closing: 2:04:25

Can you guess what game the Transition Tunes come from?  If they ring a bell, get in touch with us, or if you have a Listener's Question you’d like us to discuss, contact us right here.

 

[Dufniall]

6 hours ago, Londragon said:

Can you guess what game the Transition Tunes come from?  If they ring a bell, get in touch with us, or if you have a Listener's Question you’d like us to discuss, contact us right here.

Spoiler

Pure Pool?

 

[Hero-of-Time]

I really enjoyed the discussion surrounding my question. There were plenty of great comments/opinions coming for each of you.

Poor Sam is going to have a heart attack listening to Greg talk smack  about Panzer Dragoon. Of course, it wouldn't be Greg if he didn't have a negative opinion on a highly rated/cult classic game.  In all fairness, I was never huge on the first game. It has a very unique art style and the music is pretty good but that's about it. Orta on the other hand is a masterpiece and well worth your time. If I do ever pick up a new Xbox I'll certainly be giving it a go.

A big reason why I never picked up the remake of Panzer Dragoon is because of the issues that the game had at launch and it sounds like a lot of them are still there. Yeah, I know this was a passion project for a small team but if they were really that passionate about the series then they should have done it justice and knocked it out of the park.

During the Capcom discussion Nick mentioned that he thinks one of the games is a 3D Super Ghouls and Ghosts...so Maximo then.  To be fair, I wouldn't mind seeing that return and given another shot. I don't think that or it's sequel got a fair shake on the PS2, mainly due to its difficulty level.

I do agree that Nintendo are generally good when it comes to releasing complete products and having zero day one patches. In fact, I think a lot of Japanese developers are pretty good, especially when you compare them to the Western studios. It's no surprise that the likes of EA, Ubisoft and Activision are some of the biggest offenders when it comes to ridiculous patch sizes. Gotta push them games out so the boys at top get their bonuses. 

[nekunando]

26 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Poor Sam is going to have a heart attack listening to Greg talk smack  about Panzer Dragoon. Of course, it wouldn't be Greg if he didn't have a negative opinion on a highly rated/cult classic game.

Play it and tell me what you think

[Jonnas]

Free day today, so no driving, meaning I listened to today's episode at a slower, more leisurely pace:

• I guessed Monster Hunter Stories. It's the RPG I bravely default to whenever I don't recognise the soundtrack ;
• I saw Hyrule Warriors being mentioned a lot on youtube (with clickbaity thumbnails and such), so there's definitely a will to talk about lore. I just figure there's not that much new that the game adds... and also, our resident Hyrule Warriors aficionado Glen-i is currently on very limited internet, that's probably why our thread seems quiet;
• Nice overall discussion on the main topic. I gave my own opinion on a belated post, but I didn't address day one patches: I'm somewhat more tolerant on them, because I know projects in all sorts of industries can see unexpected problems (try finding out the pdf you sent to a client had an intrusive watermark in it that can only be seen when printed), so I can get behind a bit more time to get those "invisible fixes" in. But no matter how normal it is, it's not the sort of thing your client should see. If a company is visibly putting out a big day-one patch on all of its releases, that's going to look bad, even if it's understandable. The upside is that minor patches are almost invisible (since they download so quickly).

Anyway, Dennis' guess sounds right, but just in case he didn't get it:

Spoiler

Empire of Sin

 

[S.C.G]

N-E Café Episode 54 now available!

Now up on the main page.

- - - - -

Great episode, I enjoyed listening to your recent games, including Greg's take on Panzer Dragoon Remake, and there's not much I can say because I haven't played the remake yet, but it sounds like the remake is as divisive as the original game was back in the day, as yes, on the Saturn it was a technical showpiece, though I get the feeling that Panzer Dragoon is still very much a niche series overall. I'm still looking forward to it, and I think I will produce a review for it when I finally get that physical copy, but I will say that for anyone new to the Panzer Dragoon series, if you only play one game in the series, and you have access to either an original Xbox or an Xbox One/Xbox Series X, or just know someone who has one, then definitely check out Panzer Dragoon Orta as it's easily one of the best examples of its genre.

Some decent discussion on buying games on day one versus waiting it out, I understand that game development can be trying/taxing at any point in time, it has long been the case, but I still think that if it is possible to delay a game, then that is always the best way to go about it, ensuring that you're releasing the best possible product, within the limitations being worked with, coupled with the capability of the studio, because it seems to me that it's better to do the very best you can, without then trying to cross that boundary of trying to deliver more, but possibly overstretching and then not meeting those demands which the studio might have imposed on themselves. But when it comes to just releasing games with little to nothing in the way of testing etc, there's not much to say except better standards are needed.

As for updates, it's a catch 22... some games are vastly improved with patches, Panzer Dragoon Remake has had a fair amount added to it since launch, including a new soundtrack as I understand it, but in other cases, updates can either change or break a game, such as the most recent update for Streets of Rage 4, which imrproved probably around ninety percent of the game, but the final stage is now perhaps less enjoyable when it comes to the final boss battle, and the online seems to have been broken, at least on the Xbox One version.

Anyway, looking forward to next weeks episode, and I'll update this weeks episode with the YouTube embed, as soon as it's available.

[Hero-of-Time]

@S.C.G I've not played SoR4 since the release period. What changes did they make to the final boss battle? Have they made it harder?

[WackerJr]

Good discussion at the end, and good question @Hero-of-Time

I’d forgotten about the Spyro Trilogy actually only containing one game on the disc & you having to download the rest, so even when you think you’re buying a physical copy you’re not always!

Edited December 4, 2020 by WackerJr

[Londragon]

N-E Café [055] Paying the Price of Being Online is now available at all good podcast providers.

Recorded on the 6th of December, 2020.  

Episode 55 of the N-E Café has hosts Lee Davies, Gregory Moffett and Nick Lone taking you through the most noteworthy Nintendo news, reviewing their recently played games, and asking if the recent Switch firmware update portends to what we expect from the NSO.

This is episode 54 of the N-E Café Podcast, an N-Europe Podcast. Enjoy!

⦁ Intro Music: Doom Eternal - Hell on Earth

⦁ Introductions: 0:00:29

⦁ Nintendo News: 0:02:57

⦁ Download Delights: 0:36:07

⦁ Steampunk Tower 2: 0:42:59

⦁ Xenoblade Chronicles DE: 0:50:41

⦁ Snooker 19, Lonely Mountains: Downhill: 0:53:14

⦁ Firmware Updates & Online Services: 0:57:35

⦁ Closing: 1:34:38

Can you guess what game the Transition Tunes come from?  If they ring a bell, get in touch with us right here.

 

[S.C.G]

An excellent episode, from what I've listened to so far, I'm an hour in and I'm enjoying the talk about the update and online services.

I'll promote the latest episode dreckly (soon) but for now, I just wanted to have a 'guess' at this weeks music...

Spoiler

Kirby's Dream Land 3 it just has to be this, it couldn't possibly be anything else, as it has such a destinctive soundtrack.

 

[Dufniall]

Listening to the Kratos in Fortnite bit and yeah:

So much for your hardcore PlayStation mascot! Not sure I want Samus in there...

[Hero-of-Time]

2 hours ago, Vileplume2000 said:

So much for your hardcore PlayStation mascot! Not sure I want Samus in there...

You should see some of the dances the Uncharted characters do in multiplayer. They're hilarious.

Just listening to this on my lunch break and burst out laughing at Greg and the whole pushing through Princess Peach's castle comment. I was thinking the same thing! Filthy minds think alike.  

[Hero-of-Time]

Finished the episode.

With me not using my Switch much these days, my online subscription has ran out and I've not bothered renewing it. The price is low enough but I just don't see value in the subscription at the moment.

In terms of what they could do to improve it, getting more freebies would be good.  People forget that we were initially getting free games every month but now we get them whenever Nintendo decide to be gracious enough to throw us a bone. Discounts on preorders, especially on first party games, would be a welcome addition. PS+ and Xbox Gold often gives members exclusive discounts and it would certainly help give the subscription more value.

Nick mentioned the state of some of the online modes and I agree with his point. Super Mario Party, Super Mario Maker 2 and both of the FTP Kirby games are absolutely terrible to play online, with some being pretty much unplayable due to the lag. When you are charging for an online service then the minimum should at least be that all online modes actually work. As usual, this kinda stuff gets swept under the rug. 

[Jonnas]

Once again, slow day for me:

• Lee's pronunciation of the Greek word Kratos is absolutely right (and also how they say it in Tales of Symphonia), and it is the rootword for terms such as Democracy (Demos + Kratos) or Theocracy (Theos + Kratos). However, Santa Monica didn't get the memo, and the God of War character has been called "Kraytos" ever since his inception;
• Freedom Planet has 3 playable characters. There were two more in the pipeline for DLC as you said, but those were cancelled (the director mentioned they couldn't make them work properly). It was a bit of a small controversy, since that DLC was a Kickstarter goal. I am, indeed, a big fan of the game;
• As for Nintendo Online, I don't have much to add beyond also wishing the netcode was better (not that I have a good setup for this either, considering the pandemic, fluid netplay is more important than ever).

Sam got up super early and got the Transition Tunes absolutely right. I knew it the moment I heard it as well.