Ashley Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 I'll happily admit this was my reaction but if you can't get the message across clearly via a stream, then why attempt it in the first place? For those in the audience it would be fine but for people at home, the ones who are possibly going to buy the thing, it's a very hard sell if they can't demonstrate what they are trying to achieve with the device. To be fair, this product was never going to be for me. I'm not a tech head, i'm still happily rocking a 37inch LCD TV and games look absolutely fine on it as is. I'm certainly not willing to shell out money for a 4K TV and a new console just to see a prettier picture. I'm intrigued to see how the market reacts to this device once on sale. It's a very interesting time for the industry, even if i'm not happy with the direction it's going in., As I mentioned yesterday, I think the intent was purely for those in the audience and they streamed it because that's what you do now and it still got people chatting, even if they couldn't see it.
Hero-of-Time Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 As I mentioned yesterday, I think the intent was purely for those in the audience and they streamed it because that's what you do now and it still got people chatting, even if they couldn't see it. Yeah, but it can have a negative effect on the product. Just look at idiots such as myself.
somme Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 Just been looking up 4K TV's on Amazon. They are a lot cheaper than I'd expected. My 42" TV is over four years old, still works great.. but I have wanted a larger screen for quite a while!
Daft Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 I'll happily admit this was my reaction but if you can't get the message across clearly via a stream, then why attempt it in the first place? For those in the audience it would be fine but for people at home, the ones who are possibly going to buy the thing, it's a very hard sell if they can't demonstrate what they are trying to achieve with the device. So...what do you propose they do? It's kind of the same issue as VR; you can't be told how good/immersive/whatever some of these things are, you need to experience them. You aren't really wrong though, I was watching it and thinking it was literally absurd that they were trying to show off something that I knew couldn't be shown – like a weird inverse Emperor's New Clothes. But they need to start somewhere. I think the hands-on – much like with the VR – have been really positive, so while the meeting was a bit surreal, if you ask me, they've handled a very difficult position as well as they possibly could have.
Ashley Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 The Digital Foundary (EuroGamer) article Daft posted on the last page may be worth checking out. They reference a TV test they did a while ago that factors in price, performance, refresh rate etc etc and score them from a gaming perspective. Wouldn't be surprised if they do one specifically about the PS4 Pro soon.
Agent Gibbs Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 No 4K blueray playback on a machine that has a blueray drive and plays 4K games....a machine designed to shift 4K displays What? I can't see it helping encourage 4k TV uptake if you then need to buy a separate machine to enjoy 4K bluerays. Sure you could 4K stream but its of a lower quality Eh its a hard sell to me this, i don't need a new TV my current ones are very good so cannot justify an upgrade cost of a console and a TV for something that will not provide the complete package so to speak. Once 4K displays have dropped in price considerably this might work If it wasn't for the Scorpio (and after really falling out of favour with Ms this pains me to say) this might sell well, but the scorpio seems the better prospect if you are buying another console, that way you get that entire package and if you already have a PS4 you've then covered all bases for gaming Odd choices really, just odd, it can't cost sony much to include it since they own the tech
Ashley Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 When is the Scorpio out? October? Think they can announce and release faster than Sony like with the S? I thought it was late next year?
Hero-of-Time Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 I thought it was late next year? Yeah, it is. They've got a years prep time.
Daft Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 Scorpio is going to cost a lot. There's no chance its going to hit £350. By which time the PS4 Pro will have settled into the market, likely with space to drop its price if needed. It's weird because Microsoft's market skewers much younger than PlayStation's and yet it's Xbox that's going to offer the premium product. I don't think it'll work for them.
Sheikah Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 I'll happily admit this was my reaction but if you can't get the message across clearly via a stream, then why attempt it in the first place? For those in the audience it would be fine but for people at home, the ones who are possibly going to buy the thing, it's a very hard sell if they can't demonstrate what they are trying to achieve with the device. You could say the same about HD when it was new though - impossible to get across directly to people on non-HD sets, but they can still simulate the magnitude of benefit by showing 'downgrades' on current tech. You see this on TV adverts a lot (e.g. Sky) trying to show you the level of improvement with new tech by showing you really nice images vs crap ones (when they were trying to push Sky HD). You can sort of simulate 4K by showing a 1080p image vs a same-size image with 4 times fewer pixels. I think they did a good job explaining the upgrade, and if they can convince the people who were there like Digital Foundry to tell you it's a massive improvement then I can see that convincing people to get one.
Ronnie Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 A good job explaining the upgrade? I thought they did an awful job explaining it, that HDR "example" was ludicrous. Sure the few dozen people in the audience appreciated it, but what about the MILLIONS of people who sat at home confused and bored? I think Playstation are going to come out all guns blazing on the PS5 in a couple of years. I'm convinced they half-arsed PS4 Pro when they found out what Scorpio was, and the extra time till the latter launches gives them time to prep PS5.
dazzybee Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 Worth a read, Pre-ordered. Cancelling my PSVR pre-order. Starts looking at 60" 4K HDR TVs. Why're you canceling you psvr order? Thought you were excited by it?
Ashley Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) What's the point if it's next year? People are talking as if it's releasing the same time? I think the S is out this year and the Scorpio is out next year. I'm losing track of Xbox consoles tbf. I believe Sony has replaced their PS4 with the slim and offered the Pro. Microsoft meanwhile has the standard/old One, the S which is also slimmer but more powerful (unlike the new standard PS4 which has minor improvements but nothing to shout about) and the Scorpio which is basically a PS4 Pro Pro. I think we essentially now have three 'streams': 1) Standard (PS4, Xbox One) 2) Improved (PS4 Pro, S) 3) Super (Scorpio) A good job explaining the upgrade? I thought they did an awful job explaining it, that HDR "example" was ludicrous. Sure the few dozen people in the audience appreciated it, but what about the MILLIONS of people who sat at home confused and bored? Well as I keep saying, I don't think they were trying to sell it to us as much as they were the taste makers in the audience. We got to see it, which was nice (even if you found it boring but hey, all presentations are boring from time to time), but we weren't the ones Sony were courting because as has been discussed we can't appreciate it on a 720 stream on a HDTV. Edited September 8, 2016 by Ashley
Daft Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) If it's out next year it should be priced ok. No way, Scorpio is a BEAST, it's a whole step up from the PS4 Pro. That thing is a 4K native machine. The PS4 Pro is an 'up to 4k' deal. Why're you canceling you psvr order? Thought you were excited by it? I only have so much money and I've got to prioritise. It just makes more sense to invest in my TV/PS4 set-up before VR; the VR software library is still in its infancy so I think I'll be getting more bang for my buck with an upgraded TV/PS4. I'm still excited, but I'm happy whenever I switch my PS4 on so I might as well consolidate that experience...if that makes sense. Also, 4K Netflix. Ha Edited September 8, 2016 by Daft
Ronnie Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 Well as I keep saying, I don't think they were trying to sell it to us as much as they were the taste makers in the audience. We got to see it, which was nice (even if you found it boring but hey, all presentations are boring from time to time), but we weren't the ones Sony were courting because as has been discussed we can't appreciate it on a 720 stream on a HDTV. Just strikes me as odd given how well Sony have been doing getting gamers on their side this generation in terms of messaging and presentations. The whole low key, muted affair seemed very much backtracking on Sony's part. They knew it couldn't compete with Scorpio so didn't want to make too big a deal out of it. I really can't see it selling well at all, especially with the crazy lack of a 4K bluray player.
Kav Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) Microsoft throwing punches... [tweet]773608657007280128[/tweet] Article with Microsoft statement released after the Sony showing: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-09-08-microsofts-bullish-response-to-sonys-ps4-pro-and-slim "Starting at £249, Xbox One S is the only console available today with built-in 4K Blu-ray - a value price compared to 4K Blu-ray players. It also offers 4K video streaming plus HDR for video and gaming." "Launching holiday 2017, Project Scorpio is the next member of the Xbox One family and will be the most powerful console ever created with 6TFLOPS capable of delivering true 4K gaming" Last night Sony confirmed the PS4 Pro offers 4.2TFLOPS of power Edited September 8, 2016 by Kav
Ashley Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 Last generation we moaned Sony focused too much on the multimedia side of things at the expense of gaming (more so at the PS3's shitty launch). This generation we moaned about the One doing the same. Now we're saying the PS4 Pro should have included the UHD drive? What do we want?
Sheikah Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 A good job explaining the upgrade? I thought they did an awful job explaining it I honestly don't get how you walked away not understanding what they were saying. They couldn't have been more clear explaining what the features meant to people who may not have known much/anything about them. As they are features they can obviously not faithfully show visually, their explanation was the next best thing. I think to people without an agenda, it was pretty clear indeed.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 No 4K blueray playback on a machine that has a blueray drive and plays 4K games....a machine designed to shift 4K displaysWhat? I can't see it helping encourage 4k TV uptake if you then need to buy a separate machine to enjoy 4K bluerays. Sure you could 4K stream but its of a lower quality Eh its a hard sell to me this, i don't need a new TV my current ones are very good so cannot justify an upgrade cost of a console and a TV for something that will not provide the complete package so to speak. Once 4K displays have dropped in price considerably this might work If it wasn't for the Scorpio (and after really falling out of favour with Ms this pains me to say) this might sell well, but the scorpio seems the better prospect if you are buying another console, that way you get that entire package and if you already have a PS4 you've then covered all bases for gaming Odd choices really, just odd, it can't cost sony much to include it since they own the tech I wanted to praise Sony for keeping its fanbase well updated in comparison to Nintendo's weird muteness - but the no 4k movie player yet plays games in 4k sounds like something Nintendo would do. Dem D'oh! moves. I feel they rushed to release this for this year, but what was the rush? A constant pull for me to buy a PS4 has always been the Blue Ray player and the additional benefit of experiencing movies in higher quality. But this move kind of reduces that pull for me. Has it been explained why they omitted it?
Agent Gibbs Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) Last generation we moaned Sony focused too much on the multimedia side of things at the expense of gaming (more so at the PS3's shitty launch). This generation we moaned about the One doing the same. Now we're saying the PS4 Pro should have included the UHD drive? What do we want? I want it all! I WANT IT ALL And i want it now EDIT: wait the scorpio is LATE next year? i thought it was early? Well that throws out some really odd questions and ideas! firstly the Pro will have been an established product for almost a year so could do well, but then it begs the question of why the rush to get it out and not match the competition? Like @King_V says its almost nintendo moves Edited September 8, 2016 by Agent Gibbs
Rummy Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) I'll happily admit this was my reaction but if you can't get the message across clearly via a stream, then why attempt it in the first place? For those in the audience it would be fine but for people at home, the ones who are possibly going to buy the thing, it's a very hard sell if they can't demonstrate what they are trying to achieve with the device. To be fair, this product was never going to be for me. I'm not a tech head, i'm still happily rocking a 37inch LCD TV and games look absolutely fine on it as is. I'm certainly not willing to shell out money for a 4K TV and a new console just to see a prettier picture. I'm intrigued to see how the market reacts to this device once on sale. It's a very interesting time for the industry, even if i'm not happy with the direction it's going in., I think they've streamed it just to get info out there and because in the modern day and age it's expected. How many people would be left wondering if there hadn't been a stream available to them and they were just getting info from other sources, and how many more questions would there be knocking about? Anyway I'm absolute ditto with you for the bolded - not a tech head on this level at all. I barely buy DVDs, let alone Blu-Rays and let alone 4k ones. Still use a rock bottom priced shit brand TV and an old Samsung for my PS4 and have no real issues with either for it. I reckon they won't go crazy on their initial manufacturing for this - I think it's more niche than some realise. Having said that my mate has just managed to finally get himself a job and was saying he wants to get a the PS4-Pro but that was before the announcement - I wonder how he'll feel about the lack of 4k BR drive. Tbh I was asking why even bother - sure some of the new games might be nice but does it matter that much?? Having said that I imagine I'll definitely be popping round to have a see how it looks at some point if he does get it On the whole I have no issue with the PS4-Pro - it's an option for people. Nice option to have for those who want it, absolutely no big issue for the rest of us right now. My bigger issue is probably pricing of the PS4 slim! Talk about evergreening. Should be good prices on the old models as a result though, shame they'll eventually get phased out, as I think I still prefer the look of my current white one against that. Also echo someone's earlier sentiments - where/how do you upgrade the hard drive on them?? I wanted to praise Sony for keeping its fanbase well updated in comparison to Nintendo's weird muteness - but the no 4k movie player yet plays games in 4k sounds like something Nintendo would do. Dem D'oh! moves. I feel they rushed to release this for this year, but what was the rush? A constant pull for me to buy a PS4 has always been the Blue Ray player and the additional benefit of experiencing movies in higher quality. But this move kind of reduces that pull for me. Has it been explained why they omitted it? I haven't got an answer - but I imagine it's simply a price/cost thing. Messaged my aforementioned mate - 'So Ps4Pro doesn't have a 4k BR drive. What's your opinion as someone interested in it' He came back quite simply 'I weren't bothered by 4k optical it was the 4k gaming I wanted'. So it seems, unless he's just a very special weird/unique case, there is still going to be a market of people out there who are happy enough with it. I'd also wonder - how many people with 4k TVs already are likely to already have a 4k BR player? I don't know much about the tech or the market - what much else is there to be having with your 4k TVs? Edited September 8, 2016 by Rummy
Ronnie Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 Microsoft throwing punches... [tweet]773608657007280128[/tweet] Article with Microsoft statement released after the Sony showing: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-09-08-microsofts-bullish-response-to-sonys-ps4-pro-and-slim Smart move from them, and tbf it's a lovely looking console.
Hero-of-Time Posted September 8, 2016 Author Posted September 8, 2016 So...what do you propose they do? It's kind of the same issue as VR; you can't be told how good/immersive/whatever some of these things are, you need to experience them. I think they've streamed it just to get info out there and because in the modern day and age it's expected. How many people would be left wondering if there hadn't been a stream available to them and they were just getting info from other sources, and how many more questions would there be knocking about? You both aren't wrong and they done the best they can to get the message out. We would all be complaining had the meeting not been streamed. Poor guys at Sony can't win.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 I haven't got an answer - but I imagine it's simply a price/cost thing. Messaged my aforementioned mate - 'So Ps4Pro doesn't have a 4k BR drive. What's your opinion as someone interested in it' He came back quite simply 'I weren't bothered by 4k optical it was the 4k gaming I wanted'. So it seems, unless he's just a very special weird/unique case, there is still going to be a market of people out there who are happy enough with it. I'd also wonder - how many people with 4k TVs already are likely to already have a 4k BR player? I don't know much about the tech or the market - what much else is there to be having with your 4k TVs? Fair dos I guess, just wondering why it was so hard to deliver the complete package as they've done since the PS2, even PS1 with music CD playback.
Daft Posted September 8, 2016 Posted September 8, 2016 Sony didn't rush this. This generation, if you haven't noticed, has been done completely on their watch. The best decisions they have made, they did on their own time and this is really no different. The Pro is a completely different proposition to the Scorpio. Microsoft may be gloating, but they've really got shit-all to gloat about. They're hemorrhaging XBL subscriptions while PSN is making bank. Their hardware sales are lethargic against Playstation's (and Scorpio coming out next year isn't going to do anything to the ever more affordable PS4). Their gaming portfolio is nowhere near as diverse as Playstation's (although they have quite deservedly stolen the racing audience with Forza while Sony let Kazunori Yamauchi drag them down with slow and weak GT releases). And their demographic is younger than PlayStation's; the audience with very minimal disposable income. On paper, Scorpio looks like it's going to be laughing but the reality is quite different.
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