EU Referendum - In/Out?

[Serebii]

Hang on, are you calling Keanu Reeves a deplorable cuntbag?

Ashley's just upset that Keanu Reeves hasn't aged in 30 years while Ashley is fast approaching 30 :p

[Ashley]

Hang on, are you calling Keanu Reeves a deplorable cuntbag?

 

I think right now everyone is

 

Ashley's just upset that Keanu Reeves hasn't aged in 30 years while Ashley is fast approaching 30 :p

 

Aren't you older than me?

[pratty]

If it's any consolation to those depressed about the racism we should remember that leaving the EU is not the end of immigration into Britain, the way some people are reacting you'd think all immigration had been outlawed. It hasn't and it won't be.

 

However as someone who voted leave I don't think it's unreasonable to have legitimate non-racist/xenophobic concerns over mass/free immigration, and to express the desire to see immigration controlled by Britain as we see fit because we are the ones who will have to deal with any negative consequences of it.

 

And I say this as a person with immigrant friends and family from such countries as Chile, Burma, New Zealand and The Phillipines. I have no problem whatsoever with them being here as they went through the proper immigration channels to become residents, (and they have fit in and contributed). For me it's hardly mean or unfair to ask our EU neighbours to do the same and go through the same process, and it certainly isn't an expression of hate against them.

 

Parliament needs to nip this in the bud. Other EU countries have had referendums pertaining to the EU where the slim majority said No but it was overturned. This NEEDS to be the outcome. The economy is crashing. The promises will be unfulfilled due to being unfeasible. Taxes will rise. The pound will continue to drop.

 

Perhaps this would be best economically, but if we permit them to do this, it will say a lot about democracy and how we a governed in general. We will be admitting the government does infact know best for the nation, and will therefore potentially make it more difficult to challenge the governemnt in future, even on the basis that the majority of people disagree with them. You may be glad of the governemnt ignoring the majority of people now over this, but will you accept this over other issues?

 

I can't help feeling if the vote had gone the other way, 52% voting remain, the system of democratic voting would be praised by the remainers, and anything other than the complete obedience by our governemnt of the democratically decided majority will of the people would be condemed as sour grapes, unfair, authoritarian and undemocratic.

Edited June 28, 2016 by pratty

[Eddage]

We will be admitting the government does infact know best for the nation

 

Isn't this what we do any way?

 

We elect a government to make decisions on the nations behalf. We don't all have a say in every single law that gets passed and if we think they are doing a shit job we can elect a new lot every 5 years.

[pratty]

Isn't this what we do any way?

 

We elect a government to make decisions on the nations behalf. We don't all have a say in every single law that gets passed and if we think they are doing a shit job we can elect a new lot every 5 years.

 

Indeed, it's always been this way, now we would be explicitly saying we want it that way. Is that what we want?

 

What if the government disagrees that it's doing a shit job, how can you argue when you've already admitted that their opinion is superior to the voters? It devalues protest.

[Serebii]

Many referendums regarding the EU in EU countries have gone this way. It either causes a second referendum or ignoring when it's such a slim majority.

 

When so many people want the other thing, frankly it's irresponsible and borderline criminally negligent to just follow through with no consideration

[pratty]

Many referendums regarding the EU in EU countries have gone this way. It either causes a second referendum or ignoring when it's such a slim majority.

 

When so many people want the other thing, frankly it's irresponsible and borderline criminally negligent to just follow through with no consideration

 

Would you have accepted the governemnt ignoring an equally close vote to stay?

 

How do we decide what to do? The simple reason the majority usually wins a vote is because setting required percentages is arbitrary.

 

If we say "just leave to the governemnt, we'll effectively decide on the EU when we decide on the governemnt that decides on the EU for us," then we're saying that we do want to decide on the EU afterall. The remain side need to make up there mind here, they defend the EU by saying we (the people) have say and effectively have a vote on the EU through voting for our government and for our MEPs, but then say we're not qualified enough for our opinion to count and the politicians should ignore us and do what they want, so surely while we might have 'a say', we don't necessarily have any influence on the EU.

 

And if an anti policy X party were to beat a pro policy X party, by 52% to 48% in a general election, we don't demand a re-vote because it's unfair on the 48%.

[Ashley]

If it's any consolation to those depressed about the racism we should remember that leaving the EU is not the end of immigration into Britain, the way some people are reacting you'd think all immigration had been outlawed. It hasn't and it won't be.

 

However as someone who voted leave I don't think it's unreasonable to have legitimate non-racist/xenophobic concerns over mass/free immigration, and to express the desire to see immigration controlled by Britain as we see fit because we are the ones who will have to deal with any negative consequences of it.

 

And I say this as a person with immigrant friends and family from such countries as Chile, Burma, New Zealand and The Phillipines. I have no problem whatsoever with them being here as they went through the proper immigration channels to become residents, (and they have fit in and contributed). For me it's hardly mean or unfair to ask our EU neighbours to do the same and go through the same process, and it certainly isn't an expression of hate against them.

 

 

 

Perhaps this would be best economically, but if we permit them to do this, it will say a lot about democracy and how we a governed in general. We will be admitting the government does infact know best for the nation, and will therefore potentially make it more difficult to challenge the governemnt in future, even on the basis that the majority of people disagree with them. You may be glad of the governemnt ignoring the majority of people now over this, but will you accept this over other issues?

 

I can't help feeling if the vote had gone the other way, 52% voting remain, the system of democratic voting would be praised by the remainers, and anything other than the complete obedience by our governemnt of the democratically decided majority will of the people would be condemed as sour grapes, unfair, authoritarian and undemocratic.

 

I'm not worried about racism because I think immigration is going to end (they said all along it wouldn't). I'm worried because my friends are scared to leave the house for fear of attack. That reason. That soul crushing, rage inducing, devastating reason. In 2016 people are afraid to leave their house in Britain for fear of racial attack.

 

And obviously these things happened before sadly, but it's become more widespread and the response from the government so far has been shit.

[Serebii]

Would you have accepted the governemnt ignoring an equally close vote to stay?

 

How do we decide what to do? The simple reason the majority usually wins a vote is because setting required percentages is arbitrary.

 

If we say "just leave to the governemnt, we'll effectively decide on the EU when we decide on the governemnt that decides on the EU for us," then we're saying that we do want to decide on the EU afterall. The remain side need to make up there mind here, they defend the EU by saying we (the people) have say and effectively have a vote on the EU through voting for our government and for our MEPs, but then say we're not qualified enough for our opinion to count and the politicians should ignore us and do what they want, so surely while we might have 'a say', we don't necessarily have any influence on the EU.

 

And if an anti policy X party were to beat a pro policy X party, by 52% to 48% in a general election, we don't demand a re-vote because it's unfair on the 48%.

Ignoring the slim majority to maintain the status quo is a different beast to ignoring the slim majority to enact major change that impacts hundreds of millions of people.

 

If it was just a day before, Remain would have won.

 

I've written to my MP and implored him to do what is right.

[Eenuh]

Ignoring the slim majority to maintain the status quo is a different beast to ignoring the slim majority to enact major change that impacts hundreds of millions of people.

 

If it was just a day before, Remain would have won.

 

I've written to my MP and implored him to do what is right.

 

If that is Conor Burns then I doubt much will happen as he was for Leave as well... Really don't like him, but there is no way to vote him out with the current system. -__-;

[bob]

If it's any consolation to those depressed about the racism we should remember that leaving the EU is not the end of immigration into Britain, the way some people are reacting you'd think all immigration had been outlawed. It hasn't and it won't be.

 

As Ashley said, the control on immigration doesn't bother me (like you said, it's probably not going to change much).

 

What I'm scared about is that racists in this country now seem to believe that 52% of the country agree with them, and all the shame of being a racist in public appears to have disappeared.

 

Whatever happens politically in the future, I'm not sure what we can do to solve that problem. That ship has sailed, letting the cat out of the bag and allowing the horse to bolt as it does so.

[Serebii]

If that is Conor Burns then I doubt much will happen as he was for Leave as well... Really don't like him, but there is no way to vote him out with the current system. -__-;

 

Na, it's Tobias Ellwood. I don't expect much since last time I contacted him, I essentially got this back

 

He's the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs so maybe he sees sense. His website indicates he's for staying in the EU but wants to push for reforms

[gaggle64]

Just saw a woman on BBC News describing how she likes Farage because he's "powerful" and "people can look at him and think "My god he was good!"" and I'm just sat in here in bewilderment trying to pinpoint what precisely has to go wrong in somebody's life for them to look at Farage and see strength.

 

On a similar note to the Samantha B video Stephen Colbert encasulates what I fear we look like to the rest of the world now. We don't look like a nation taking control of it's destiny, we look like cartoonish dishonorable idiots.

 

[Daft]

We don't look like a nation taking control of it's destiny

 

Because we aren't.

 

Vodafone to consider HQ move after Brexit

 

After a resounding Brexit vote, Sunderland fears for Nissan plant

 

Brexit stalls Tata Steel's UK operations sale plans

 

Telegraph Biz Editor on Twitter: LSE boss @xrolet has said he thinks 100k City jobs could go post-Brexit. That would mean £10bn in lost tax and £32.5bn in lost output.

 

 

 

This is my favourite though, UK in breach of international human rights

 

“The UN’s verdict is clear and indisputable. It considered extensive evidence and gave the Government every opportunity to show why its tax and policy reforms were necessary and fair. In many important respects the Government proved unable to do this. It is clear that since 2010, ministers were fully aware that their policies would hit lower income groups hardest and deepen the suffering of many already facing disadvantage without offering any long term gain for the pain they inflicted."

 

This one doesn't even have anything to do with Brexit. But we're now facing even more cuts because of it.

 

Edit: I forgot this gem.

 

Rupert Murdoch describes Brexit as 'wonderful'

 

I mean...come one... You don't need a Remain campaign to tell you that siding with Murdoch, La Pen, Donald Fucking Trump, Michael Gove, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson is a fucking stupid idea.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Daft

[bob]

Yes, but we can now stand on our own two feet....

 

...for about 6 months before we topple over and end up in a wheelie bin.

[pratty]

Ignoring the slim majority to maintain the status quo is a different beast to ignoring the slim majority to enact major change that impacts hundreds of millions of people.

 

So 52% taking the other 48% in one direction is wrong because it's too close, but 48% taking the other 52% in the other direction is ok? Despite the same closeless and that the people getting their way are in the minority.

 

If that's how you and others feel then that's fine, I just hope everyone is consistant about this when they want change.

 

That the UK should be prevented from deciding itself what it wants to do, because it effects hundreds of millions of mostly non-British people, is exactly my problem with the EU. As a political union the EU is too big and too dependant on each other that many people will not tolerate the freedom of a nation do as it pleases or even leave.

 

As Ashley said, the control on immigration doesn't bother me (like you said, it's probably not going to change much).

 

What I'm scared about is that racists in this country now seem to believe that 52% of the country agree with them,

 

I understand this, could it be that the racists think the other leavers are with them because so many of the remainers said you were racist to question the EU's immigration policy and want more immigration contro linto the UK? If anyone made this out to be a racist vs non-racist issue it was them.

[Serebii]

So 52% taking the other 48% in one direction is wrong because it's too close, but 48% taking the other 52% in the other direction is ok? Despite the same closeless and that the people getting their way are in the minority.

 

If that's how you and others feel then that's fine, I just hope everyone is consistant about this when they want change.

 

That the UK should be prevented from deciding itself what it wants to do, because it effects hundreds of millions of mostly non-British people, is exactly my problem with the EU. As a political union the EU is too big and too dependant on each other that many people will not tolerate the freedom of a nation do as it pleases or even leave.

 

Absolutely they should when it comes with such fundamental shifts, has already ruined our economy killing off all the growth we've made in the last 20 years and was built on a house of lies

[bob]

 

I understand this, could it be that the racists think the other leavers are with them because so many of the remainers said you were racist to question the EU's immigration policy and want more immigration contro linto the UK? If anyone made this out to be a racist vs non-racist issue it was them.

 

Yep. Defo their fault. 100%.

[Ashley]

So 52% taking the other 48% in one direction is wrong because it's too close, but 48% taking the other 52% in the other direction is ok? Despite the same closeless and that the people getting their way are in the minority.

 

If that's how you and others feel then that's fine, I just hope everyone is consistant about this when they want change.

 

That the UK should be prevented from deciding itself what it wants to do, because it effects hundreds of millions of mostly non-British people, is exactly my problem with the EU. As a political union the EU is too big and too dependant on each other that many people will not tolerate the freedom of a nation do as it pleases or even leave.

 

I understand this, could it be that the racists think the other leavers are with them because so many of the remainers said you were racist to question the EU's immigration policy and want more immigration contro linto the UK? If anyone made this out to be a racist vs non-racist issue it was them.

 

It effects hundreds of millions of British people which is kind of the point...

 

UKIP's actions brought race into it, as did Gove/Johnson banging on about Turkey. It's not racist to question immigration, it is when you're saying "Turkey may join [they won't] soon and we all know what they are..."

 

Although the press made it far worse and have been doing it far longer (as have UKIP).

[pratty]

It effects hundreds of millions of British people which is kind of the point...

 

Hundreds of millions of British people? Is there even a hundred million Britons on the planet? What am I missing here? I assumed affects hundreds of millions of people refered to the collective population of the EU, because there are hundreds of millions of them. Are you counting anybody born abroad with any kind of British ancenestry, and saying they deserve a say in Britian's EU membership?

[Ashley]

Oh no it's just been a long few days and I'm going crazy

 

Sorry yes, not hundreds of millions. But it affects many millions of British people. In fact I'd argue it affects most of the population, even those that voted to Leave, in a way that was not made clear before and is becoming increasingly clear (with the pound plummeting, S&P reducing our credit rating, Moodys the same, strong likelihood of recession, tax increases, reductions in public spending etc).

[Nicktendo]

Hundreds of millions of British people? Is there even a hundred million Britons on the planet? What am I missing here? I assumed affects hundreds of millions of people refered to the collective population of the EU, because there are hundreds of millions of them. Are you counting anybody born abroad with any kind of British ancenestry, and saying they deserve a say in Britian's EU membership?

 

Quite obviously a typo to be fair...

[Ashley]

No I think I'm going crazy. It's been a long week with very little sleep.

[pratty]

Oh no it's just been a long few days and I'm going crazy

 

Sorry yes, not hundreds of millions.

 

No worries, I'm not looking to hammer you over it or take the piss.

 

But it affects many millions of British people. In fact I'd argue it affects most of the population, even those that voted to Leave, in a way that was not made clear before and is becoming increasingly clear (with the pound plummeting, S&P reducing our credit rating, Moodys the same, strong likelihood of recession, tax increases, reductions in public spending etc).

 

But we knew that the decision, if acted on, would affect the whole country. I like the idea of people having certain rights that cannot be voted away by a majority that doesn't like them, but I don't see how we could apply this idea to EU membership, what alternative is there then other than a democratic vote, or having no vote at all and just leaving our fate in the hands of our politicians? The latter might be practical in this case with regard to our economic stability, but as a general rule isn't this a dangerous power to give away to the government? To veto the dominant view of the country. It could come back to bite a lot of people on other issues.

[Ashley]

No worries, I'm not looking to hammer you over it or take the piss.

 

But we knew that the decision, if acted on, would affect the whole country. I like the idea of people having certain rights that cannot be voted away by a majority that doesn't like them, but I don't see how we could apply this idea to EU membership, what alternative is there then other than a democratic vote, or having no vote at all and just leaving our fate in the hands of our politicians? The latter might be practical in this case with regard to our economic stability, but as a general rule isn't this a dangerous power to give away to the government? To veto the dominant view of the country. It could come back to bite a lot of people on other issues.

 

If we rewind a bit this started with discussing whether it would be good (politically, socially etc) for the government to overturn the referendum and Serebii was arguing (and I joint in) given the impact it has already had, yet alone the one that is likely to come, there could arguably be a reason. One could argue that the government would be acting against the nation's best interest if our economic downturn is substantial, even if it means ignoring their democratic voice.

 

Although a better option would be to give some time to see how this is playing out, see what Europe is up to (more on that later) and then putting it to the electorate and say "we heard you before and we have acted upon it and now that we know the full extend, do you still want this?" You know, like how when you try and close an application and it says "you sure?"

 

But back to Europe...reading some analysis today and obviously its speculative at the moment but talk of France/Germany/Italy willing to give a 'EEA-' deal (i.e. worse than Norway) whereby they give us some concessions on immigration but at the same expense and more importantly with no financial passporting, which will ultimately lead to a lot of the financial industry (which if I recall correctly is worth 13% of either the country or London's economy, forget which) moving to those countries.

 

If that were to happen it would be cruelly ironic that we voted to "take back control" when in fact we've given Europe the control to decide on our future (at least in the short term) and could use it to benefit themselves while hurting us.