Do Nintendo still have what it takes to produce hardware?

[Ville]

Well, the thing is that they're stuck with the gamepad, so they might as well figure out some unique use for it...

[Goron_3]

There is a pattern I've noticed in regards to Nintendo's control scheme alterations

 

2004/2005

"Everyone's shoehorning touch screen control into everything. They should be more subtle."

 

2006/2007

"Everyone's shoehorning waggle into everything. They should be more subtle."

 

2012/2013/2014

"Nintendo's being too subtle with the GamePad. It should be shoehorned into everything"

 

...

 

I don't know where to start. This is really bad, Joe. Oh lord.

[Sheikah]

Surely the ideal outcome is happy medium?

[Ashley]

I don't recall anyone saying that the touch controls were over used on the DS, and while I think people feared the motion controls would be overused on the Wii I seem to recall people were surprised by how subtly they were used in games like Galaxy.

 

So... I don't see a pattern. Well, not with peoples' reaction to Nintendo's control methods anyway.

[Dcubed]

I don't recall anyone saying that the touch controls were over used on the DS, and while I think people feared the motion controls would be overused on the Wii I seem to recall people were surprised by how subtly they were used in games like Galaxy.

 

So... I don't see a pattern. Well, not with peoples' reaction to Nintendo's control methods anyway.

 

I do. People went ballistic over the idea of touch controls in the Zelda games on DS, and the controls for Starfox Command when it got announced, and over the idea of touch controls in Advance Wars Dual Strike, and they moaned about the presence of touch actions in Castlevania DOS, and the touch controls for tilting the table in Metroid Prime Pinball... You get the idea...

 

There were LOADS of examples over the years of people moaning about touch controls in "core" DS games; hell even today you have people deriding them over the influence of "casual shit" on these games...

 

Serebii says a lot of crazy stuff, but he's right on this one (if a bit hyperbolic about it :p )

[Retro_Link]

He's not right about there being some pattern and people asking for the Gamepad to be shoehorned into games.

[Goron_3]

I do. People went ballistic over the idea of touch controls in the Zelda games on DS, and the controls for Starfox Command when it got announced, and over the idea of touch controls in Advance Wars Dual Strike, and they moaned about the presence of touch actions in Castlevania DOS, and the touch controls for tilting the table in Metroid Prime Pinball... You get the idea...

 

There were LOADS of examples over the years of people moaning about touch controls in "core" DS games; hell even today you have people deriding them over the influence of "casual shit" on these games...

 

Serebii says a lot of crazy stuff, but he's right on this one (if a bit hyperbolic about it :p )

 

Some games replaced good, d-pad controls for poor touch controls, like Zelda:PH compared to other Zelda games, and that led to people being frustrated. However, the potential of the touch screen/2 screens validated itself straight away with some fantastic titles, from Advance Wars, the touch generation games, Hotel Dusk and even Mario Kart. That example posted above made no sense and had no relation to the gamepad issues people have. In fact I can't remember anyone asking for the Gamepad to be shoe horned in to anything, people like me just want to see it used as opposed to it just representing a gimmick that Nintendo threw at gamers, expecting us to slap it up. Hard for it not to feel like it's not the early 2000's Nintendo mindset of 'they'll buy it because we say it's good, and if it doesn't sell, well it's the consumers fault'.

 

That said, Ubisoft know how to use the Gamepad better than anyone (Zombi U and Rayman). Shame they're not investing into the Wii U a bit more

Edited May 12, 2014 by Goron_3

[Sheikah]

Well I do remember a particularly terrible use of touch in one Zelda game (might have been the first DS one). You had to use the stylus to move, which was not comfortable or intuitive. Touch for the sake of touch.

 

As with any tech, include the tech as it enhances the experience and not just for the sake of it.

[Dcubed]

He's not right about there being some pattern and people asking for the Gamepad to be shoehorned into games.

 

While I'm not saying there's a pattern here or not, I think Serebii is referring to people asking for more games built around the Gamepad when he says people are asking it "to be shoehorned into everything". And he's certainly right there; there's a lot of discontent over how a lot of Nintendo's recent output (namely DKCTF, NES Remix 1&2, Mario Kart 8 and to a lesser extent SM3DW) don't really make major use of it.

 

I'm not taking what he says literally here, but I think it's fair to say that there is a bit of a change in tack over the last few years. It is kinda funny how it has gone from people moaning about "overuse" of touch/motion controls in DS/Wii games to people now moaning about the lack of games that really make good use of the Gamepad

Edited May 12, 2014 by Dcubed

[RedShell]

There was enough of a difference with the Wiimote to compensate for the lack of power. This time around, I'm not convinced. I would have liked the Wii U to be much closer to the competition.

 

My wanting them to go 3rd/2nd Party simply boils down to them giving us out-dated tech in their hardware

 

Wii U: All over the place tbh. Underpowered compared to competition

 

As for the hardware; yes, I think it is sub par.

I still reckon that the biggest issue with the Wii U hardware is that 99.9% of 3rd party developers are lazy bastards. Or to quote Chris Seavor from the Conker's Bad Fur Day commentary...

"fucking redundant cunts"

 

And here's why:

 

[Hero-of-Time]

While I'm not saying there's a pattern here or not, I think Serebii is referring to people asking for more games built around the Gamepad when he says people are asking it "to be shoehorned into everything". And he's certainly right there; there's a lot of discontent over how a lot of Nintendo's recent output (namely DKCTF, NES Remix 1&2, Mario Kart 8 and to a lesser extent SM3DW) don't really make major use of it.

 

I'm not taking what he says literally here, but I think it's fair to say that there is a bit of a change in tack over the last few years. It is kinda funny how it has gone from people moaning about "overuse" of touch/motion controls in DS/Wii games to people now moaning about the lack of games that really make good use of the Gamepad

 

I think the moaning is justified though. The high cost of the Wii U is down to the GamePad and what has it been used for? A couple of bits here and there like blowing or touching the screen but nothing like a game changer that was the Wiimote.

 

I think people are just peed off that they have paid a premium price for false promises and what is essentially an off Tv accessory. Don't get me wrong, I love off TV play but I can see why people feel hard done by when it comes to unique experiences.

 

I still reckon that the biggest issue with the Wii U hardware is that 99.9% of 3rd party developers are lazy bastards. Or to quote Chris Seavor from the Conker's Bad Fur Day commentary...

"fucking redundant cunts"

 

And here's why:

 

Most of these examples are Nintendos own games. 3rd parties could get that kind of stuff out if they made an exclusive title. Problem is that they like to port games over with ease to all the consoles and with the Wii U having different architecture than the others then it makes it really hard to do so. Lazy? Maybe but from a business stand point you can kind of see where they are coming from.

[RedShell]

Most of these examples are Nintendos own games. 3rd parties could get that kind of stuff out if they made an exclusive title. Problem is that they like to port games over with ease to all the consoles and with the Wii U having different architecture than the others then it makes it really hard to do so. Lazy? Maybe but from a business stand point you can kind of see where they are coming from.

Indeed.

It's just that I don't consider the Wii U to be underpowered hardware, far from it.

[Hero-of-Time]

Indeed.

It's just that I don't consider the Wii U to be underpowered hardware, far from it.

 

Agreed.

 

I love seeing developers being able to squeeze out what they can with the hardware they have in their hands. Nintendo are masters of this. Just look at the stuff they pulled off with the Wii and now the Wii U.

 

It's underpowered in the sense that it doesn't meet the expectations of third parties. Like you, I'm fine with what we've got.

[sumo73]

The short answer is yes Nintendo does have what it takes to produce hardware but the only problem is 'they' can't really sell it well enough through advertising and marketing. Also I believe the company still holds Gunpei Yokoi's view of 'Lateral thinking with withered technology' in good regard.

[Goron_3]

Indeed.

It's just that I don't consider the Wii U to be underpowered hardware, far from it.

 

When people say underpowered I think they're referring to how much it costs, as the cost is inflated due to the gamepad hardware. For example, when I say 'underpowered' I'm referring strictly to the Wii U hardware, not the controller. To be clear, I think we can all agree it's MUCH closer to PS4/XBO than Wii was to PS3 etc. It's just a shame it's not able to run PS3/360 ports well. That alone is such a hinderance for 3rd parties; they shouldn't be required to have large teams to port a game when it's so much easier when porting from say PS4 to XBO.

 

I have no doubt they can produce hardware, I just don't want them to think that the hardware needs to have a 'golden bullet' because I want the games to be innovative. SM3DW, MK8, NSMBU, Pikmin, Donkey Kong...great fun but just incremental upgrades from their predecessors. Okay, they look incredible but innovation for me doesn't come from graphics. I've played many fantastic and innovative titles over the last few years across all consoles and now that Nintendo have better hardware I want to see what they can do that's totally different. The jump from NES-> Snes and N64->GC hardware saw us enter bigger, better worlds which were more immersive. I hope Zelda on Wii U makes the jump, too.

 

I realise I'm getting slightly OT so I'm just going to disappear off to play Nintendo Land and that bloody donkey kong game!

[Ashley]

I do. People went ballistic over the idea of touch controls in the Zelda games on DS, and the controls for Starfox Command when it got announced, and over the idea of touch controls in Advance Wars Dual Strike, and they moaned about the presence of touch actions in Castlevania DOS, and the touch controls for tilting the table in Metroid Prime Pinball... You get the idea...

 

There were LOADS of examples over the years of people moaning about touch controls in "core" DS games; hell even today you have people deriding them over the influence of "casual shit" on these games...

 

Serebii says a lot of crazy stuff, but he's right on this one (if a bit hyperbolic about it :p )

 

Fair enough, my memory is terrible after all!

[Serebii]

I did hyperbolise a little. I apologise.

 

However, my overall point is valid. People were ballistic over touch screen and motion control being in everything, and now we have the inverse.

 

Surely the ideal outcome is happy medium?

 

Absolutely. That's what I'm hoping for at E3.

[Retro_Link]

I don't agree we have the reverse. I don't believe this is Nintendo actually being selective and careful to not overuse the Gamepad in games, I think they simply hadn't been developing games where it's fundamental to gameplay.

 

They thought they'd get Nintendo Land out to show what could be done and after which third parties would bring a raft of ideas to the table in the first couple of years.

 

Watching this back and hearing Third Party developers talk about the Wii U is so cringe worthy. Never trust these again.

 

Edited May 13, 2014 by Retro_Link

[Cube]

People are now used to touch screen controls - they're a normal part of everyday life. On top of that, the 3DS shows that Nintendo now know the balance normal controls and touch-screen controls, as well as a better idea of how to use the two screens. In the Zelda DS games, we got poor touchscreen controls replacing perfectly fine button controls, which they've now reverted in the 3DS game while still using the touchscreen in a different way.

 

People are expecting that experiance to transfer to the Wii U.

 

Edit: Also, I can't believe that anyone worth listening to complained about optional touch screen controls in Advance Wars.

[Ville]

I thought the Zelda games were fine, I had no problems with the controls. As for Advance Wars, you had the normal controls too, so I just used those!

 

And what comes to Starfox Command...well let's face it, that game was shit. Flying with the stylus and trying to do all the other stuff at the same time was just too damn awkward...

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Now some have agreed the Wii U is not "under-powered", can I please get an understanding of what is exactly 'wrong' with the Wii U hardware (apart from sales-related, price etc) to question Nintendo's capabilities?

 

I only spot a lack of digital audio as a flaw, beyond that every title I've seen so far (except maybe Zombie U) has spot on visuals and its only 1.5 years in. With the smooth transition from TV to gamepad - I call the Wii U good hardware.

[Goron_3]

Now some have agreed the Wii U is not "under-powered", can I please get an understanding of what is exactly 'wrong' with the Wii U hardware (apart from sales-related, price etc) to question Nintendo's capabilities?

 

I only spot a lack of digital audio as a flaw, beyond that every title I've seen so far (except maybe Zombie U) has spot on visuals and its only 1.5 years in. With the smooth transition from TV to gamepad - I call the Wii U good hardware.

 

The hardware works fine, that's not an issue. Obvious problems are of course the fact that it's far too weak to run the majority of PS4/XBO 3rd party games, despite the fact that the gap between Wii U-PS4 is closer than the gap between Wii-PS3. There's also the fact that the architecture combination of 'weak' CPU+GPGPU means that it's very difficult for porting PS3-360 games at a good standard, hence why games like CoD, AC etc run worse on Wii U than on other bits of hardware. Of course, a developer is always able to set up bigger teams for these ports, like NFS, but it's very time consuming and as a result those games don't come out alongside their release on other consoles (NFS, Watchdogs).

 

If the console was say £200 it would be different but at its current price it's more expensive than the hardware inside the box (note i'm seperating the box from the controller). Why? Because of the high cost of the gamepad. Which again leads into a discussion of 'well why aren't these releasing games that actually use the gamepad' etc. People don't mind buying a buying a console with lower specs for a higher price if the whole unit has a great selling point (Wii was $250 at launch with vary archaic tech hence they made huge profits, but it was justifiable in many peoples eyes for the software which used it). Of course, the Wii was helped by how incredibly cheap the Wii remote cost Nintendo as it was just waggle, not actual motion control. As a result, costs weren't as high as for the gamepad.

 

Also, I do think people forget how impressive the Wii U gamepad is. Zero latency is pretty crazy. Even despite the poor screen it's a great controller.

[RedShell]

Now some have agreed the Wii U is not "under-powered", can I please get an understanding of what is exactly 'wrong' with the Wii U hardware (apart from sales-related, price etc) to question Nintendo's capabilities?

 

I only spot a lack of digital audio as a flaw, beyond that every title I've seen so far (except maybe Zombie U) has spot on visuals and its only 1.5 years in. With the smooth transition from TV to gamepad - I call the Wii U good hardware.

I can definitely agree on the audio output, was gutted to discover that I wouldn't be able to use my existing AV Receiver with the Wii U because it lacked a HDMI input.

Other than that, the only thing I'd say is the standard battery life on the GamePad, which is pretty damn atrocious.

 

Everything else, lack of decent online features, voice chat, account system, etc... can be amended via software.

[Fused King]

 

Always nice to watch these back.

Kevin Levine, hahaha.

[Serebii]

This is a common thing I've seen. Developers love the GamePad, they just got disillusioned because Nintendo didn't provide the necessary documentation on how to use the CPU/GPU properly and so it seemed overly weak. It snowballed from there.

 

Nintendo probably should have waited six months or so, so third parties had better documentation and could properly have utilised the Wii U so ports didn't seem worse than their last gen counterparts.