Here's a bit of a mad idea of how Nintendo might be able to gain 3rd party support...

[dazzybee]

But right now they need to keep themselves afloat and they have a responsibility to prop up their console. To do that they need to release a lot of games. This seems to mean rehashing content like New Super Mario Bros, rather than taking their time and making awesome new games or at least more different same series games.

 

Elder Scrolls games for instance - you're looking at maybe 5 years between a release, but you get so much of a game when it hits. I would love for them to spend more time coming up with quality stuff, without the pressure of them having to provide a big catalogue of games to entice people to buy their consoles.

 

Also I don't see how they can't still make games like Kid Icarus if they released it on other consoles rather than their own system. They still could. When you look at some of the crap that gets released, Kid Icarus must surely have more of a fanbase and will be poised to do better.

 

One thing we can say is that the Wii U will not sell anywhere near as well as the combined Xbone and PS4 systems. Having your games on systems that everyone has just seems like a much better idea. So many more people could buy your games.

 

Oh god, that's not how it works. De blob did really well on Wii, went multiplatform and didn't, same with epic Mickey, I genuinely believe its because it didn't stay exclusive. I also think the new rayman would have sold more if it was exclusive to wii u. Just throwing your stuff on more consoles doesn't mean more sales. Creating an environment for a product is vital, Nintendo have that environment. Lose the environment and it may (and I believe definitely) impact them negatively.

[Sheikah]

Nintendo do not have any good environment at all when it comes to their home console. The Wii U is bombing. People like Nintendo software, it generally sells well. But the console itself is not desired by most.

 

Case in point - all Nintendo games released on Wii U so far are exclusive, including the acclaimed NSMW. But that still isn't selling impressively. People don't want to sink money on a console they think is last gen.

[Clownferret]

if Nintendo teamed up with Sony like they nearly did all those years ago and released a PS5 with exclusive Nintendo games surely they would crush XBox.

[Serebii]

if Nintendo teamed up with Sony like they nearly did all those years ago and released a PS5 with exclusive Nintendo games surely they would crush XBox.

I don't know...Sony tried to screw Nintendo then (asking for majority of royalties from Nintendo IPs on that system), and Nintendo screwed Sony (Didn't say it wasn't happening and went with Phillips instead) so there's a lot of bad blood and something is bound to happen again.

 

Hell, look at what happened between Nintendo and EA. They had a great partnership building. Battlefield was to be a Wii U game, with major focus on it, among others...then it collapsed. Nobody knows why but the general consensus through insiders is that EA wanted Nintendo to be solely on Origin, putting EA in control, and Nintendo rightly told them no.

[Clownferret]

I don't know...Sony tried to screw Nintendo then (asking for majority of royalties from Nintendo IPs on that system), and Nintendo screwed Sony (Didn't say it wasn't happening and went with Phillips instead) so there's a lot of bad blood and something is bound to happen again.

 

Hell, look at what happened between Nintendo and EA. They had a great partnership building. Battlefield was to be a Wii U game, with major focus on it, among others...then it collapsed. Nobody knows why but the general consensus through insiders is that EA wanted Nintendo to be solely on Origin, putting EA in control, and Nintendo rightly told them no.

 

Not suggesting that it would happen. But the talk has been about Nintendo going 3rd party and my point was that rather than release games on both consoles and partnership would dominate. Even the most ardent XBox fanboy would find it hard to choose an xbox over a playstation that had all 3rd party games plus Sony & Nintendo's in-house catalogue. Just the thought of this with Sony hardware and Nintendo controllers would be a juggernaught

[liger05]

The best way is to start cultivating the Nintendo audience into playing other games than platformers or Zelda. Start producing fps, racers, beat em ups etc etc and produce a viable eco system where third parties can actually prosper.

[tapedeck]

The best way is to start cultivating the Nintendo audience into playing other games than platformers or Zelda. Start producing fps, racers, beat em ups etc etc and produce a viable eco system where third parties can actually prosper.

 

I think, to an extend, they have tried to become more varied in regards to Genres. Especially when you look at tiles such as Metroid prime, Smash bros. Mario kart, Pikmin, Wii Sports. But still the 'cartoon/fantasy' styles of each go against the realism/simulation focuses seen on other platforms.

[liger05]

I think, to an extend, they have tried to become more varied in regards to Genres. Especially when you look at tiles such as Metroid prime, Smash bros. Mario kart, Pikmin, Wii Sports. But still the 'cartoon/fantasy' styles of each go against the realism/simulation focuses seen on other platforms.

 

And there is nothing to say Nintendo can't keep producing these games but they should of bought western studios to produce the kind of games we see third parties produce.

 

Other than money hatting which again sometimes Nintendo will just have to do these the only way I see third party support becoming similar to what we see on other consoles. The power of the hardware is irrelevant if Nintendo fans keep refusing to buy third party games so it's up to Nintendo to fix this audience.

[RedShell]

People don't want to sink money on a console they think is last gen.

If anyone has played Super Mario 3D World but still thinks the Wii U is last gen, they're an absolute donut.

 

Anyway... Everyone remember this?

I suppose I could give you a list of the technical specs. I believe you would like that, but I won't for a simple reason; they really don't matter. The time when horsepower alone made an important difference is over.

 

That was at E3 back in 2004. I think a lot of cynical people believe that was just Iwata downplaying the importance of hardware due to the lower specs of the Wii, but in reality it makes so much sense, and it's a shame that many other developers don't realise it.

 

Sure, there are certain things that naturally require a lot of horsepower, like photorealism and anything with a shit-load of stuff going on. But ultimately there's not much that can't be realised on the Wii U, unfortunately though it requires a bit more work to get results, and it seems the majority of devs don't share Nintendo's philosophy, they just want more and more power to make their lives easier.

 

The funny thing is, if they followed Nintendo's example they'd actually save themselves a lot of money and I also believe we'd see much more creativity as a result too. This emerging trend of practically every game needing to be a huge production and look super realistic is one that I reckon will eventually damage the industry.

It's anti-videogame in my opinion. Putting the emphasis on presentation or story, over that of gameplay and innovation is a mistake.

 

So yeah, as far as the 3rd party situation is concerned I'm not too fussed anymore. If I really want to play a certain 3rd party title I'll just play it on another system/PC. I don't think there's anything else Nintendo can or should do in order to entice 3rd parties to Wii U either, they should simply continue to focus on creating their own fantastic games and follow their own path. Yeah, they'll be carrying the system by themselves, but let's face it, that's basically been the situation for a long time now.

[Sheikah]

Naturally though developers will create games to run and look as good as possible on the PS4/Xbone, where most gamers are. It doesn't make sense to make a game not as good in any aspect as it can be.

 

It's not that developers don't share Nintendo's ideology (quite frankly, I'm glad they don't); it's that in future the Wii U will require inferior versions of games developed alongside the main ones in order to be made playable. That's effort to make something look worse. Arguably most people would want the better versions of the same game anyway, so it's questionable whether it's worth the effort.

 

I think in about 1-2 years we will definitely see titles on the PS4/Xbone that people will believe are a step above, at least technically speaking, and there will again be a huge contrast against what the Wii U will be doing (similar to the 360/PS3 vs Wii).

 

 

I also think people need to be very careful about their observations on power. Having a powerful console does not mean that the games focus too much on power and not enough on imagination. This is a very simple way of viewing things and in my opinion absolutely wrong. Games should strive to be absolutely the best at everything they can be, including visually/power wise - as this DOES have a positive effect on the immersion of games. As far as imagination goes, some of the most imaginative titles of the last generation have been on the PS3 in my opinion (particularly the Indie scene). And in contrast to that, I think a lot of Nintendo franchises have become stale.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

If anyone has played Super Mario 3D World but still thinks the Wii U is last gen, they're an absolute donut.

 

Anyway... Everyone remember this?

 

 

That was at E3 back in 2004. I think a lot of cynical people believe that was just Iwata downplaying the importance of hardware due to the lower specs of the Wii, but in reality it makes so much sense, and it's a shame that many other developers don't realise it.

 

Sure, there are certain things that naturally require a lot of horsepower, like photorealism and anything with a shit-load of stuff going on. But ultimately there's not much that can't be realised on the Wii U, unfortunately though it requires a bit more work to get results, and it seems the majority of devs don't share Nintendo's philosophy, they just want more and more power to make their lives easier.

 

The funny thing is, if they followed Nintendo's example they'd actually save themselves a lot of money and I also believe we'd see much more creativity as a result too. This emerging trend of practically every game needing to be a huge production and look super realistic is one that I reckon will eventually damage the industry.

It's anti-videogame in my opinion. Putting the emphasis on presentation or story, over that of gameplay and innovation is a mistake.

 

So yeah, as far as the 3rd party situation is concerned I'm not too fussed anymore. If I really want to play a certain 3rd party title I'll just play it on another system/PC. I don't think there's anything else Nintendo can or should do in order to entice 3rd parties to Wii U either, they should simply continue to focus on creating their own fantastic games and follow their own path. Yeah, they'll be carrying the system by themselves, but let's face it, that's basically been the situation for a long time now.

 

That may be all well and good (you're certainly right about pretty much everything regarding Nintendo and 3rd parties), but the fact of the matter is that they just can't support a console all by themselves. They need outside help to keep a consistent schedule going and to bring that all important software variety to their platforms.

 

Like it or not, they need to earn their support to keep their platforms going. Maybe they can survive without some of them (they've managed to get by without Take Two or EA's support for the most part), but not all of them...

[Zechs Merquise]

Utterly hilarious to see the usual suspect arguing that Nintendo games have gone stale! After Pikmin 3, Wind Waker HD and SM3DW it's clear that the Wii U is the only next gen machine to have software worth buying.

 

Also, looking around the internet the whole debate over which console to buy hinges on the resolution and frame rate of the multi platform games. No one is talking about which system has the best exclusives or questioning when games will be arriving that use the horsepower to present new experiences. Instead the debate rests squarely on issues of graphical minutia.

 

I can see what would happen if a developer produced a genuinely ground breaking game for the XBO or PS4 that actually used the horsepower for something other than pure graphical fidelity - they would be ripped to pieces over displaying their bold new title in anything less than 1080p. Digital Foundry would write a scathing article and ranting fanboys would produce thousands of comments.

 

The fact Nintendo has stepped out of that pissing contest isn't a bad thing at all. What's even more miraculous is that they can produce games like Kirby's Epic Yarn, Skyward Sword and SM3DW which despite being on 'technically inferior' systems looks better than anything else out there!

 

But don't worry PS4 fans, you can have a gorgeous looking corridor shooter that plays exactly the same as it did on the PS3 but now it looks a little sharper and the buttons on the soldiers outfits are now polygons!!! Did you hear that, buttons are actually polygons!!!!!!!!! POLYGONS I TELL THEE! When I'm running around in an online match it totally wrecks my immersion in the game when I realise that the buttons on soldiers' coats are bloody textures!!!!

[Sheikah]

Yes Zechs, I believe many Nintendo game series have become somewhat stale. I don't really care if you say that my view is hilarious. Belittling people's views like that such is a sure sign of immaturity.

 

In terms of their home console offerings, NSMB, Zelda, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Smash Bros and even to an extent their 3D Metroid offerings now are mostly incremental upgrades. They laid down the foundations and produce these games to a formula. It's why I find the whole 'Nintendo are kings of imagination' comments a bit curious. Maybe once....

 

For me me, the pioneers of imagination are mostly in the Indie scene these days. Also don't assume PS4 is all I care about. I PC game more than anything these days and haven't got my eyes set on a PS4...yet.

[Serebii]

Yes Zechs, I believe many Nintendo game series have become somewhat stale. I don't really care if you say that my view is hilarious. Belittling people's views like that such is a sure sign of immaturity.

 

In terms of their home console offerings, NSMB, Zelda, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Smash Bros and even to an extent their 3D Metroid offerings now are mostly incremental upgrades. They laid down the foundations and produce these games to a formula. It's why I find the whole 'Nintendo are kings of imagination' comments a bit curious. Maybe once....

 

For me me, the pioneers of imagination are mostly in the Indie scene these days. Also don't assume PS4 is all I care about. I PC game more than anything these days and haven't got my eyes set on a PS4...yet.

It's because, even when they're "formulaic", they ooze with creativity. Just look at Super Mario 3D World for that. You don't need to be pumping out new IPs to be creative.

[Sheikah]

It's because, even when they're "formulaic", they ooze with creativity.

I've not played NSMW yet (slow to arrive) but I'm guessing it's very polished and must have something new going on. All the other games I listed, the last ones I played felt a bit stale in terms of gameplay.

[Ashley]

It's because, even when they're "formulaic", they ooze with creativity. Just look at Super Mario 3D World for that. You don't need to be pumping out new IPs to be creative.

 

I felt it was formulaic and I was raked over the coals for having an opinion.

[Jonnas]

They need outside help to keep a consistent schedule going and to bring that all important software variety to their platforms.

 

Like I told Sheikah before, I don't think this is true. The majority of their audience only buys a handful of games per year, and rarely pay attention to release schedules.

 

If anything, they only need constant releases to find an excuse to market the console further, for first buyers.

 

In terms of their home console offerings, NSMB, Zelda, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Smash Bros and even to an extent their 3D Metroid offerings now are mostly incremental upgrades. They laid down the foundations and produce these games to a formula. It's why I find the whole 'Nintendo are kings of imagination' comments a bit curious. Maybe once....

 

As much as I think that Smash Bros hit its zenith with Melee, and that Brawl felt lacklustre, accusing the series of being stale is a tad petty, I think. I'd wait until the next entry to see just how true it is.

 

As for 3D Metroid... Other M got criticised for a lot of things, but staleness wasn't one of them. If it's Metroid Prime you're talking about, then you have to remember... the last entry there was 6 (almost 7) years ago, and it was the result of a developer milking a trilogy out of that franchise (a la Uncharted or God of War), something that's actually pretty unusual for Nintendo IPs.

 

Fair points about everything else, true. In this scenario, I can usually recommend branching out a bit for games like Donkey Kong, Kirby's Yarn, Punch-Out Wii, etc. that don't follow any previous formula. Your argument is often used for Nintendo's entries in their major series (and rightfully so), but it tends to ignore many titles as well.

[Sheikah]

I just don't see where they can take it. It's going to be mostly the same game, as the gameplay is the game, and I've always found the campaign to be a bit of a letdown. Maybe the campaign will be good.

 

I will say that Nintendo have series that make them different from the competition. And that the games would feel, to someone who has never played those series before, rich in imagination. But to someone who has played most of the games, I feel like they really are milking formulas. Most recently with NSMB U - although I kinda found it generally enjoyable, it was pretty startling how conserved this format has remained. Right down to the 'jump on spinning turtle dudes heads 3 times' to clear the world.

 

Fair points about everything else, true. In this scenario, I can usually recommend branching out a bit for games like Donkey Kong, Kirby's Yarn, Punch-Out Wii, etc. that don't follow any previous formula. Your argument is often used for Nintendo's entries in their major series (and rightfully so), but it tends to ignore many titles as well.

 

True, I've played a couple of these (Kirby's epic Yarn and DK). While they don't follow a formula, I felt they lacked somewhat of an oomph.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Sheikah

[tapedeck]

Something being stale is just a matter of opinion though, surely? FIFA might be 'stale' yet sells millions every year. Why? Because it's comfortable. People know what they are getting. Stale isn't always a bad thing to some.

 

The mobile piranha plant, cat mechanics and 4 player co-op 3DMario platforming structure indicates a freshness to me - as we've not seen such mechanics used in 3D Mario outings before. Such mechanics also seem to be universally loved. But when Nintendo throw these things in, the word gimmick gets thrown back by gamers.

 

I think a lot of the time it's not the games that are stale, but the gamers themselves. They've 'been here, played that' before and thus struggle to express a viewpoint from anything other than a long-time gamer perspective.

Nothing beats the first time you experience something. The colours of the mushroom kingdom are dull and stale to a gamer who has visited those shores time after time, no matter how fun.

I think as an industry gamers (and reviewers) need to be more open, less critical for the sake of being critical and celebrate the merits of a game,. But most of all we all need to try to be more impartial too.

Unfortunately the industry is plagued by too many people who feel they have to defend their console.

 

What we are therefore left with is a vitriolic experience where lots of opinions of self-proclaimed 'experts' who have seen it all before get in the way of the content, mechanical integrations and ideas presented in a game. Instead we sometimes end up with a focus on story/graphics/music as insta-comments as to a games worth. I'm not saying that's all of the time, but it appears to be frequent.

Edited November 29, 2013 by tapedeck

[Sheikah]

FIFA is definitely stale, don't worry. I'm not trying to convince you all that Nintendo in particular are the only guilty ones. It's just with most of their titles they heavily rely on preestablished game formulas.

[peterl0]

FIFA is definitely stale, don't worry. I'm not trying to convince you all that Nintendo in particular are the only guilty ones. It's just with most of their titles they heavily rely on preestablished game formulas.

 

I think this quiet a general problem with games at the moment though. Having been a gamer for 20+ years practically every game I play has an element of staleness to it. Last game I have played that did not feel that stale (that I really enjoyed) was probably PullBlox, before that Portal 2 and before that the first (3d) GTA I played.

 

(Might be forgetting some.)

 

Recently I have found a bit more of a love for the new games by appreciating the bits in the games that do change.

 

I do think that we kind of have extremes with Nintendo though - things like Wii Sports and Wii Fit from Nintendo felt genuinely new to me but were not *that* enjoyable as games. On the other hand, the more formulaic games such as your Marios and Zeldas have been more enjoyable but felt less fresh.

 

Edit - World of Goo. That one felt like a new experience.

[Clownferret]

gaming is definitely approaching a ceiling both in terms of gameplay and graphics. That's why the Wii was such a success, it created a brand new element to gaming. FIFA peaked at 12, TW peaked at 10, COD is just COD and along with FIFA the most guilty of rehashing the same old formula with a couple of tweaks year in, year out. And yet they are two of the biggest selling games so what does that you tell you about the average game buyer?

[Jamba]

The vast majority of this thread is the dullest stuff I've read on this forum in ages. I'm thankful for Dcubed for having tried to start an interesting discussion but sad to think that I genuinely don't want to join in the discussion as it would be a waste of time.

 

At least half of the people on this thread are actually trying to address the OP whilst everything else is just reactionary bullshit.

 

EDIT: Euuuurgh... just been into the Wii U thread.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Jamba