Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

[ReZourceman]

Pros

- I really liked Batman.

- I really liked Wonder Woman.

- A lot of the action is really good.

- I really liked Lex.

- I really liked the entire cast.

 

 

Cons

- All over the fucking place.

- Dialogue.

-

Justice League stuff was not only absurdly out of place, but looks guff. Flash looks alright. Aquaman acted really fucking stupidly. Cyborg looks beyond ridiculous - Cyborg was Batman & Robin quality.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Ashley

[Julius]

Pros

- I really liked Batman.

- I really liked Wonder Woman.

- A lot of the action is really good.

- I really liked Lex.

- I really liked the entire cast.

 

 

Cons

- All over the fucking place.

- Dialogue.

-

Justice League stuff was not only absurdly out of place, but looks guff. Flash looks alright. Aquaman acted really fucking stupidly. Cyborg looks beyond ridiculous - Cyborg was Batman & Robin quality.

 

You might want to spoiler tag your final con.

 

Anyway, here's what I think was good and bad, and how (after one viewing) I think they could probably have made it a lot better.

 

• the score. Hans Zimmer and Junkie XL killed it with this score! The Lex theme (The Red Capes Are Coming) was spot on, and some of the JL pieces reminded me very much of The Batman animated TV series.

• Ben Affleck as Bruce Wayne/Batman. Gave his all to the role, and by far and away the best Bruce Wayne/Batman we've seen in live action.

• speaking of which, the brutality and grittiness of Batman. Pulled straight from The Dark Knight Returns.

• the rest of the cast, for the most part, were excellent. Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, Cavill as Supes, Holly Hunter as Senator Finch. However, Jeremy Irons' Alfred Pennyworth was excellent in my opinion.

• the BvS fight.

 

 

• Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor. He was sinister and plotting, which was Lex all over. However, a lot is wrong with the character, I feel, and it isn't Jesse's fault - it's down to the cast director. In the comics, Lex is very similar to Bruce Wayne: extremely intelligent and at his physical peak, which is one of the reasons he loathes Superman, who's born "better" than him.

• the dream sequences. No real way of knowing they've started other than if you expected them, and though I know Flash was a nod towards Crisis on Infinite Earths and possibly too Injustice: Gods Among Us, it was out of place and wasn't necessary in the dream (why would he be in Bruce's dream in the first place?), and we were even shown him later anyways.

• the Easter eggs for future world building, as in the JL and Darkseid stuff. Lex created logos for them and knows all of their identities right off the bat? Great. They felt shoehorned in, and Darkseid nods could have stopped either when he talked about turning the painting upside down or when we see a Parademon attack Batman in the Knightmare sequence. We had a few moments at the end where they literally threw everything at you.

 

 

• Lex's reason for hating Supes is completely skimmed over.

• Superman having two "deaths", neither of which are permanent, and his revival won't make sense from his current position.

• I don't know about you, but when Supes first "died", I expected his return immediately - we saw him after that in the trailers.

• I've only seen it once at this point, but I feel it could have jumped from Bruce being in Metropolis to Supes being in the Capitol.

• The actual reveals of the other JL members. Over email?!

• Not even a suggestion for non-comic fans as to why Bruce is so pissed off in general during this film.

• I know, they wanted this Batman to be like that in The Dark Knight Returns, but throwing out both his NO KILLING and NO GUNS rule without justification?

• the length of the actual fight between Batman and Superman. It was far too short to be the title!

• Again, another Dark Knight Returns reference, but it annoyed me a lot considering there just isn't any explanation. Bruce Wayne being an extreme alcoholic.

• The length of the Doomsday fight and the fact that the stakes not only never felt that high, but it wasn't made out to be such a challenge to fight until it's two climaxes.

• Doomsday beginning to look comic book accurate but then not becoming fully comic book accurate. What?!

• it felt like at least four films rolled into one (a Batman solo film, a Man of Steel sequel, a Batman vs Superman film and a Justice League film)

 

 

• a very easy jump from the opening scenes with Bruce in Metropolis to Supes in the Capitol

• have Supes take Doomsday into the Sun to kill him, as in the comics. The final shot could have been a look at the Sun and a heartbeat synonymous with the track, which they kind of did. Also leaves Doomsday open to future appearances in the DCEU.

• Superman didn't want to kill Batman, or even fight him in the first place. Up the ante a bit and make it so they both have a reason to fight!

• Make the BvS fight longer. This should have at least been a good fifteen minutes long or so, and I'd imagine a lot of the Extended Cut is based around this.

• Make the Doomsday fight longer. Far too short in my opinion.

• Easter Eggs we actually have to keep an eye out for, not things being thrown in our face! Such as having Emmet Vale shown at LexCorp (the guy who created Metallo) or otherwise.

• It's great that Martha Wayne and Kent were both respected in this film. But, even in the nightmare at his parents' tomb, you can't make out 'Thomas Wayne' on the adjacent crypt.

• Luthor losing his hair. I thought initially that it had fallen out, and I was excited. Have it fall out due to the radiation from the Kryptonite! But no. It was just shaved off.

 

 

All in all, a film I can understand that fans love and critics can have a field day with. It felt like it got caught up in world building and comic book references like IM2 and AoU did. If I had to give it a rating, after the first viewing, it'd be a 7/10 (I also have MoS a 7/10 initially). However, MoS is a film that I find grows on you with repeat, spaced out viewings, and is currently on an 8/10 for me, so perhaps this film will have the same effect?

Edited March 27, 2016 by Ashley

[Happenstance]

You might want to spoiler tag your final con.

 

You might not want to quote things you recommend being spoiler tagged

[Ashley]

I really enjoyed it. Was it perfect? No, of course not. But I went in expecting certain things and came out satisfied.

 

Maybe not having read that much Batman helped to not establish what I think Batman should do in my mind and just go with it. I saw him as a Chandleresque figure - bitter and broken about the corruption around him and trying to make it better but not necessarily in a noble and 'clean' way. I like that he said he was a criminal and that he accepted that he was a vigilante. Vigilantism, particularly in a broken down place like Gotham, will lead to deaths. And Batman will be responsible (directly or not) for some of them. I read it as he's slowly morphed into this person, becoming more and more corrupted as he's gotten older.

 

It will be interesting to see in Justice League if he softens in that regards with Clark and Diane (and others) around him. Also if we ever see any kind of prequel whether he was always this way or whether he became this.

 

Don't get me wrong, I could see why some people were upset but I kind of like a hardboiled Bruce.

 

In regards to the JL reveals, I'm neither way one or the other. On the one hand its nice not to have the usual accidental/background meeting (I did expect going in Aquaman would be shown reacting to the events of MoS as a lot of shit went into the ocean). It was different. Maybe it didn't work too well, but meh at least it was a different way of doing things.

 

I like that they asked 'big' (in context) questions/ideas such as whether or not Superman should be given free reign, the fact Bruce/Clark and Lex were similar in ways but hated each other for those similarities without seeing the irony, Martha saying Clark doesn't owe the world anything (yeah I know people took issue with that, but it's a very motherly thing to say and kind of true).

 

I'm curious to see how Americans reacted to the bombing of the Capitol. The end of MoS had clear echoes of 9/11 and that's always going to be evocative for certain audiences, but to show a bombing in the Capitol is pretty ballsy.

 

I also liked how it was Batman v Superman, rather than Batman and Superman just fighting. Clark went with the intent of explaining to Bruce and teaming up to stop Lex, but Bruce had his mind set on killing Clark and went for it and Superman was just trying to defend himself.

 

Diane's eye roll when Lex was banging on about Greek Gods was amazing. Looking forward to the Wonder Woman film.

 

Some of the criticisms that have been levelled at it are pretty laughable though. I saw one review which said the fight scene was "grim and unfunny". In a fight scene? Really?

 

 

 

Oh and the Blu-Ray is out July 16th in America. Unsure about here.

 

Looking forward to seeing what's on that extra 30 minutes. Might help the film breath a bit.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Ashley

[Julius]

You might not want to quote things you recommend being spoiler tagged

 

It updates my quote with a spoiler tag.

[Happenstance]

It updates my quote with a spoiler tag.

 

No, Ashley did that for you.

[Julius]

No, Ashley did that for you.

 

Well, thankyou @Ashley.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I've just been watching Man of Steel in preparation for this film. I remember when that came out, a lot of people panned it, too. Maybe this particular style isn't for everyone? I've got a good friend who I work with who absolutely loathes Man of Steel, but he is TeamMarvel.

 

I'll go in with an open mind and expect something similar to what we got with Man of Steel. What's this about 30 minutes extra footage in the blu ray release? What's all that about?

[Julius]

I've just been watching Man of Steel in preparation for this film. I remember when that came out, a lot of people panned it, too. Maybe this particular style isn't for everyone? I've got a good friend who I work with who absolutely loathes Man of Steel, but he is TeamMarvel.

 

I'll go in with an open mind and expect something similar to what we got with Man of Steel. What's this about 30 minutes extra footage in the blu ray release? What's all that about?

 

The film was going to be three hours long, with extra plots, violence and nudity which would give it an R rating.

 

As for saying it's not for everyone, that seems to be a running theme with much of Zack Snyder's work...

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

I've just been watching Man of Steel in preparation for this film. I remember when that came out, a lot of people panned it, too. Maybe this particular style isn't for everyone? I've got a good friend who I work with who absolutely loathes Man of Steel, but he is TeamMarvel.

 

I'll go in with an open mind and expect something similar to what we got with Man of Steel. What's this about 30 minutes extra footage in the blu ray release? What's all that about?

 

We just watched some Man of Steel on Amazon, after watching BvS on Friday - and the difference in quality to us (my gf who isn't into super hero films), was very clear.

 

Man of Steel was emotionally driven and had a more realistic edge to it, like Clark on the oil rig and Russell Crowe's input. Its really a clear-cut difference in the overall experience...

 

Hoping Captain America doesn't mess up..

[Julius]

Damn. Critics clearly didn't get word around enough to stop the opening weekend from being MASSIVE.

 

$424.1 million worldwide, the biggest superhero opening weekend and the fourth biggest opening weekend of all time.

 

Deleted scene released by WB, titled "Communion".

 

is that a New God? Seems to be taken from after Doomsday left to fight the Trinity, showing Lex's arrest and him bowing before...well...what could be Darkseid's General?

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Julius Caesar

[Daft]

I really enjoyed the film but it feels like it was made to be three hours long and near the end someone asked for half an hour to be cut.

 

 

Lex talking to Steppenwolf. Explains why Lex actually goes a bit nuts. You can hear Steppenwolf say 'Lex Luthor' about five seconds in.

[Julius]

I really enjoyed the film but it feels like it was made to be three hours long and near the end someone asked for half an hour to be cut.

 

 

Lex talking to Steppenwolf. Explains why Lex actually goes a bit nuts. You can hear Steppenwolf say 'Lex Luthor' about five seconds in.

 

I agree, that's exactly what happened. The story team and Zack went ahead making a three hour long film, but no chance in hell were WB going to release such a long and complex film.

[Happenstance]

Off to see the movie in about an hour. We'll see how it goes.

 

...it was crap

[Fierce_LiNk]

I saw this today with a friend who is a huuuge Marvel fan, isn't massive on DC and hated Man of Steel. To make matters worse, he was late to the cinema by about 40 minutes due to an accident holding up traffic on the way in. The people selling popcorn and drinks kept looking over and giving sympathetic smiles like I'd been stood up for a date! I could have cried.

 

We managed to get into our seats barely seconds before the film was about to start. Within two minutes, the guy next to me had spilled his entire drink of coke onto the person next to him (luckily not me!) and rustled his sweets all the fucking way through the film, which irritated me and my friend. Adding all of this together, he shouldn't have enjoyed it.

 

But he did and I really enjoyed it, too. I watched Man of Steel again before seeing this and I do think that the two films marry well. I will say that I went in with reeeeeeally low expectations due to the reactions from critics, etc. But, I didn't really want it to end.

 

• The casting was pretty great. I thought Affleck, Eisenberg and Gadot all made great introductions and were an asset to the film
  
• The fact that there are consequences in this world. It gave the film more depth.
  
• The action sequences were all pretty great. I loved the way that the characters moves. It was pretty much Injustice: The Movie
  
• I was worried about Doomsday from the trailers, but it all came off well, I thought.
  
• The music was obviously phenomenal.
  
• Loved the flashback with Kevin Costner, who was one of my favourite things about Man of Steel
  

 

 

• One of the dream seuences where it shows Batman and Superman in the desert. Could have easily lived without this scene, but I thought it wasn't explained all that well
  
• Could have had more Batman V Superman fight or another fight earlier on before the big one. I wanted more of it as it was great.
  
• There was definitely a lull in the middle third of this film. I thought the star was strong, the ending was strong but perhaps a bit too much foreplay in the middle. Could have done with another action scene there.
  
• Perhaps a slightly better build-up between Lex orchestrating the Batman/Superman clash. I thought Bat's reasons for stopping Superman were valid, but I could have done with a bit more reasoning from why Supes wanted to fight Batman.
  
• I'm not sure if it was just me or the cinema, but I wish the audio for the speaking parts was a bit louder. This did make it tricky to fully understand what the characters were saying, but it's not quite as bad as it was during the Nolan films.
  

 

 

I'm glad I saw it and I'm going again with Ine when she comes back from Belgium.

[Daft]

Yeah, to me it was the Greek tragedy I always wanted to see on screen. And it's building towards the space opera it needs to become.

 

[Julius]

Hans Zimmer has announced his retirement from superhero movies scores.

 

Damn, one of the best things about this film...

[Fierce_LiNk]

Hans Zimmer has announced his retirement from superhero movies scores.

 

Damn, one of the best things about this film...

 

Yeah, gutted. I'm not surprised. From what I read many months back, he actually decided to walk away after Man of Steel and ruled himself out of the running for BvS before changing his mind. So, it looks like this has been on the cards for a while. It might be a good thing for him as an artist not to be associated with just one genre of film, so I imagine that could be part of his reasoning.

 

I'm seeing him next month when he comes to Bournemouth. Very excited! I'm a particularly massive fan of his Interstellar soundtrack. Man of Steel's music was also superb. As was Inception. Fuck, the list just goes on.

[Kav]

This was a travesty! Worse than The Amazing Spider-Man 2, worse than Spider-Man 3... worse, even, than the Affleck Daredevil (I can't believe I'm saying that, but it's actually true!).

 

It started off alright and looked to be building toward something good... but it had a couple needless bits which made absolutely no sense whatsoever as they had NOTHING to do with this film, even if I got the references, and then it was completely ruined by the decision to condense what should have been the most epic of all DC moments, and a standalone film in its own right, into 15 minutes of shite. Utter shite!

 

1/10. DO NOT watch!

Edited March 30, 2016 by Kav

[Ashley]

Just spotted these on Amazon:

 

[Daft]

and then it was completely ruined by the decision to condense what should have been the most epic of all DC moments, and a standalone film in its own right, into 15 minutes of shite. Utter shite!

 

You're talking about Superman's death, right?

 

This whole thing is a darkest before dawn thing (it's not hard to see, the title is 'Dawn of Justice'). Batman's life is constantly defined by death; his parents are murdered, Robin is beaten to death and now Superman – boom – dead. Death is transformative for him.

 

His parents' death is nonsensical to him. It makes him Batman, but in his isolation it's something he twists over time. And this is really the first comicbook Batman we've seen because in the comics he never exists in isolation and in this universe, as far as he is concerned, he's in this world alone in the fight for Justice. He answers to no one because he's a fecking vigilantly, so it makes sense that his perceptions of justice might warp over time – just like in TDK. Bruce becomes warped to the point where he tells Supers that 'His parents dying in the gutter taught him that the world doesn't make sense unless you force it to'. His parents' death forces him to become Batman because Batman is how the world makes sense to him.

 

Robin's murder is the one that turns him 'cruel'; Alfred says this in the film. Sure, he hasn't got to the point where he's executing people but he's unconcerned about criminals putting themselves in a position to be killed. Bruce also says something like 'We're criminals now' (I can't remember it verbatim). It's clear that Batman has stared into the abyss a little to long. And he becomes completely disillusioned with his war on crime; when talking about killing Superman he says 'this might be the only thing I do that matters' – he's a total fucking nihilist at this point.

 

Superman's death is the one that pulls him back from the brink.

 

 

Batman is about to execute Superman (who he's dehumanized him massively; 'you're not brave, men are brave') and suddenly he's confronted with the last word of a dying alien, and that word is 'Martha', a name. The same last word of another dying man, Thomas Wayne. And that's a big fucking shock to Batman. But he's not a child anymore and now he is the one who's about to pull the trigger and finally he realises that he's become exactly what he hated.

 

And he also realises that he isn't alone.

 

Lois tells Superman that his shield 'means something, it's all that gives them hope' and this is the start of that. Superman is a man who can inspire even the most foregone of people, Batman. And Superman doesn't even know it because he still isn't Superman, not yet, not really, not like everyone knows and loves him.

 

And this third transformative death can be seen in the film and beyond. It's why Batman doesn't brand Lex in the end – which would get him killed in prison – and why the Batmobile now doesn't have a machine gun mounted on the front of it in shots of Suicide Squad.

 

Plus, let's not have any illusions, the Death of Superman is not a great storyline in its own right so that they got it in this was is a vast improvement. And how epic is any death when you know without doubt that they will be back? Seriously, there is no tension. Because really Superman's death isn't about him, it's about everyone else.

 

If you aren't talking about Superman's death then...I don't know. Doomsday? There's nothing to say that cunt is actually dead. In fact there are a couple things to say he isn't. And I thought that fight was a blast.

 

 

I'll agree wholeheartedly that this film isn't well put together – it's disjointed and jarring – but I can't agree that it's not well written; but those bits are splattered all over the place. It doesn't hang together but it is all there and it does all fit, if you can be bothered to clean up the mess yourself. And honestly, it's fair enough if you don't.

[Kav]

I can see your point @Daft, and while it does make sense in that respect...

 

...for Batman, it doesn't for the rest of the world. In this film Superman isn't quite the icon he becomes and so his death doesn't have the same meaning or impact.

 

Also... Zod + a bit of Lex's blood = Doomsday..? Oh god no!

 

Doomsday is a killing machine, evolved over countless deaths and rebirths. Not this pathetic way.

 

He tears through the Justice League with an arm fixed behind his back and only Superman can really stand against him.

In this, Wonder Woman was smiling whilst battling him and gave him a harder time than Supes did.

 

That story should not have been told in this film. No way! The battle and Supes' death is such a big moment, it just lost all that in this film because of the poor execution of it.

 

 

Also, even though you can, if you have to clean up the mess then it is not well written. That's the opposite of well written.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Kav

[Daft]

I can see your point @Daft, and while it does make sense in that respect...

 

Zod + a bit of Lex's blood = Doomsday..? Oh god no!

 

Doomsday is a killing machine, evolved over countless deaths and rebirths. Not this pathetic way.

He tears through the Justice League with an arm fixed behind his back and only Superman can really stand against him.

In this, Wonder Woman was smiling whilst battling him and gave him a harder time than Supes did.

 

That story should not have been told in this film. No way! The battle and Supes' death is such a big moment, it just lost all that in this film because of the poor execution of it.

 

When Lex is starts to cook him up, the ship says 'Advising. Action forbidden. It has been decreed by the council of Krypton that none will ever again give life to a deformity so hateful to cited memory – the desecration without name.'

 

So for starters, this is clearly not the first 'Doomsday'; in fact Lex explicitly says to Superman, 'This is your Doomsday'. So, the original one might actually still be out there.

 

Secondly, and this is subjective, his origin of being cloned after countless deaths is hardly necessary (nor does it make that much sense). That this practice was forbidden by the Council of Krypton tells me everything I need to know. I'm a little surprised anyone likes Doomsday from the comics. He was created in the comics to kill Superman, there's basically nothing else to him. Do you really think his comicbook origin would have been good on film? I don't. What would it have added?

 

And Wonder Woman can go toe-to-toe Doomsday, she did it in the first arc of Superman/Wonder Woman recently. Wonder Woman is as strong as Supes, she doesn't have a weakness to a piece of rock or magic and she actually has magic on her side (In fact there is a storyline in the recent Justice League about how Diana doesn't have any weaknesses and how problematic Batman finds that). Also, she's a trained soldier, unlike Superman. With magic weapons. So there's no reason at all she can't beat back Doomsday. Add that to her line 'I've fought monsters from other worlds before' and she's in a better place to fuck up Doomsday than anyone else.

 

And I stand by Superman's death. It's not a big moment. It was a marketing stunt by DC that basically 'killed death in comics', as Max Landis put it. There is no tension when you know death means nothing.

 

 

 

Sorry, didn't see your death comment. I agree, it doesn't have the same impact but I don't think it's a bad thing. The question literally asked earlier is 'Should there be a Superman?' and the Senator responds with 'There is.' and the world needs to react to that and this film is the world's reaction – both good and bad.

 

Now the answer is 'There isn't' and we're going to see the fallout of that. Part of that being the assembly of the Justice League.

 

 

As for the well written comment, I'd agree if the writer and the director were the same person and the reality is they aren't and that disconnect is the issue. It's not well directed – it has some weird editing, too – but the writing is there.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Daft

[Fierce_LiNk]

With regards to the ending of the film:

 

Although they only have that crucial showdown at the end, Batman and Superman are constantly clashing throughout the film. I thought the film handled this really well, tbh. You have that excellent scene at the party earlier which shows a clash in ideology and interests. Bruce sees Superman as just another freak in a suit and something he has to deal with, particularly as he has viewed him first hand as a danger to others, which they show reeeeeeeally well in the first 20 minutes of the film.

 

The film does a good job of showing (like @Daft mentioned) how Batman dehumanises Superman, saying that he isn't a man or brave. I loved how they resolved the fight, I hadn't been anticipating that and it does draw the parallels between the two characters; both are natural (but perhaps reluctant) leaders, both are orphans who have lost those they hold dear, both believe in their own brand of justice and both desperately are seeking for approval. I thought the film handled that well when it showed that section where Superman saves loads of people (Day of the Dead, rocket, floods) yet still looks disheartened as he watches the television.

 

In terms on the showdown, I thought it was superb. It was brutal, to the point and had a clear resolution. My ultimate fear was that we'd get a draw, but it was in this that Batman had the better of Superman and I think this film did a good job of showing that Superman is not just a boyscout who will always triumph 100% of the time; he will in fact meet people who are better than him and he saw that in this finale. As hinted at in that dream sequence, I do think Superman and Batman will clash again in the future, in fact maybe on more than one occasion.

 

 

I can't wait to see it again. I don't think you really believe that those films you mentioned were better (because they really aren't...), so maybe you're hurt because you didn't get the story you wanted. I'm looking forward to seeing it again and think sometimes seeing a film again can change your view on it. I didn't think much of The Dark Knight first time around, but it became a firm favourite on repeated viewings.

[Sméagol]

Saw it yesterday. This basically applies to me:

I really enjoyed it. Was it perfect? No, of course not. But I went in expecting certain things and came out satisfied.

[..]

I enjoyed it, but I had really low expectations. I made my peace with certain bad decisions months ago, and went in to see Batman and Superman in one film, and fight, and to get my first glimpse of Wonder Woman, and without the need to complain about things I'm already expecting to be bad. I thought the action was great, and I liked some other things, and objectively I can't call it a good film, but it simply met my expectations.

 

It all comes down to how the DC cinematic universe is handled: poorly. I already knew that from the start, and obviously the film confirmed this for me.. All the prominent characters should have had a film before this ensemble film. Seeing a Batman film before this would have made this an even more enjoyable experience. I guess the film serves "adequately" as an introduction to Wonder Woman, but I'd also would have liked to see more of her. Some more Diana Prince scenes would've helped. The same goes for Lex Luthor. A lot of characters I felt little to nothing for, since I'm not yet invested in those characters. They should've removed most references to the Justice League and meta humans to make room for the characters that are actually in it. Justice League better be phenomenal, because at this point I have, well let's say 50% interest in The Flash (which is not because of this film), and 0 interest in Aquaman and that other dude.

 

Just spotted these on Amazon:

 

image

image

Where's Wonder Woman?