Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Problem isn't just the quantity for me, there was a certain samey feel with their output (NSMBU a prime example). Also a problem was supporting third party software - originally a lot of ported over titles and now next to nothing at all. Means you need even more good first party stuff than last consoles to make up for it. Well I'd argue the complete opposite regarding quality, but to each their own
Sheikah Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Well I'd argue the complete opposite regarding quality, but to each their own By all means, it you say you're going to argue it then follow through. :p Can you really argue it in the case of NSMBU? I don't believe anyone could, convincingly. I'd guess that ultimately, such an argument would boil down the to pro camp saying 'I don't think it was samey' rather than providing any meaty explanations as to how it was a fresh experience.
Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 By all means, it you say you're going to argue it then follow through. :p Can you really argue it in the case of NSMBU? I don't believe anyone could, convincingly. I'd guess that ultimately, such an argument would boil down the to pro camp saying 'I don't think it was samey' rather than providing any meaty explanations as to how it was a fresh experience. Not for NSMBU, no. That was a refinement, though. It's the greatest 2D Mario, in my view, especially with New Super Luigi U DLC. Yes, it felt similar to past games, and the aesthetics were based on others, but it's by no means a bad game.
Retro_Link Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 One of you said quantity, the other said quality... Either way, it's all very tiresome. The complete lack of things to talk about regarding the Wii U is an absolute joke. Even the Nintendo IGN staff seem barely able to cobble enough stuff together to go to work for/put in a podcast, let alone us on a forum.
Blade Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 As I said before NSMBU was really enjoyable. I don't think it offered anything particularly ground breaking but I enjoyed playing it nonetheless. I really don't get the hate for it. I think it's a quality 2D Mario platformer. Thing is though I can now not be arsed playing on other platformers. I haven't really touched DK! One of you said quantity, the other said quality... Either way, it's all very tiresome. The complete lack of things to talk about regarding the Wii U is an absolute joke. Even the Nintendo IGN staff seem barely able to cobble enough stuff together to go to work for/put in a podcast, let alone us on a forum. Thing is it's quite difficult to not repeat ourselves when there is nowt being released for it!
Retro_Link Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Oh yeah I know, and it's the reason the forum is like it is. I just can't believe how bad Nintendo have let things get.
Hero-of-Time Posted August 10, 2014 Author Posted August 10, 2014 The complete lack of things to talk about regarding the Wii U is an absolute joke. Even the Nintendo IGN staff seem barely able to cobble enough stuff together to go to work for/put in a podcast, let alone us on a forum. You listened to this weeks episode yet? It's another show and tell. Like you said, I guess they haven't got enough topics to discuss. Jose commented about the lack of games and how the next release is September. The console will never get any momentum going with such huge gaps in the release schedule. They also commented on the quality of the indie software ( not good ) and how Nintendo should be trying to get the better indie games on their system to fill in these gaps. Jonny on NWR spoke about the indies just after E3. He said the booths Nintendo had set up for them were pretty shabby and out the way, while Sony and Microsoft had given them premium space. In terms of the Wii U output from Nintendo themselves I think it's been more than fine. The company has to develop games for the Wii U and 3DS. If you put those together it's a tremendous output of games from a single company. Personally I don't think quality is ever an issue, just quantity. They need 3rd parties to fill in these gaps as they can't do it themselves. As for NSMBU, I really enjoyed it. I don't mind the series and I thought the Luigi levels were amazing. Sometimes you don't need to be innovative, you just need to stick with what you've done before and expand on it. I would quite happily play another entry in the series if they were to release one. Even if all that was different was a new suit. To me the games are fun and that's all I really want out of gaming, to be entertained.
Fierce_LiNk Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 They also commented on the quality of the indie software ( not good ) and how Nintendo should be trying to get the better indie games on their system to fill in these gaps. Whilst it probably doesn't count as indie (not sure), there's a few PSN/XBwhatver titles that aren't on the eShop that I'd expect to see there. Ine is addicted to Strider at the moment. How come that isn't there? Same with stuff like Valiant Hearts. FeZ is the type of game you'd expect to see there and it isn't. A bit odd. But yes, I look at the Nintendo Gaming Board and it becomes apparent that aside from Mario Kart, there isn't anything that's on the system right now that's got people hooked in.
Retro_Link Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) @Hero\-of\-Time I watched this part of the podcast (which includes the Indie bit)... but yeah it just made me think about how bad the situation was again. The Show and Tell was interesting last week, but yeah they're only doing it because there's absolutely nothing else. I agree Nintendo's output isn't at fault (despite maybe not enough diversity/a few questionable choices), but they are missing the big Indie games (the ones that people actually get excited over and generate discussion like TWD), consistent second party support (the type that Rare supplied in the past... Retro's efforts seem to take an eternity in comparison), and of course the third party games. Edited August 10, 2014 by Retro_Link
S.C.G Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 To be fair, Nintendo's output in the first 18 months of Wii U is higher than every one of their consoles other than the Wii, which beats it by just 3 games. It's not like they're holding back or massively struggling with development. True... but the pacing could be better.
Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 True... but the pacing could be better. There's no arguing against that haha
Goron_3 Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I think we're going around in circles regarding the quality of games on Wii U discussion. In the first 18 months of the Wii U's lifecycle, it's seen some very good games, and if you're a Nintendo fan, the games are VERY good. Another Donkey Kong, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, NSMB, a Wind Waker remake, a G&W game and Pikmin. Yes, they are great and quality wise they are very strong. But... Are these games system sellers? To the large majority of the population, they are nowhere near a clear 'step up' from their Wii counterparts. We had big jumps from Super Mario World and SM64 and Super Metroid to Metroid Prime, but does anyone really care about the jump from DKCR -> DK:TF or NSMB to NSMBU? Why couldn't we just play those games on Wii? Many Nintendo fans criticise yearly AAA sequels (Assassin's Creed, FIFA) but what's the difference here to the average consumer? There's nothing revolutionary about any of these Wii U games, they are just simple sequels. That doesn't diminish their quality, but the games don't excite anyone other than those who are huge Nintendo fans and Wii U owners. Also, the Wii U certainly did not have better games in its first 18 months than other Nintendo consoles, not by a long LONG way. The Gamecube's first 18 months was absolutely extraordinary in terms of software; they brought new and inventive titles that were a clear step up from the N64 (and PS2, for that matter). Melee, Luigi's Mansion, Rogue Squadron, Mario Sunshine, The Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Wave Race, Pikmin, Eternal Darkness. Look at that line up. Look at it. You've got brand new I.P on top of bigger, much better games than what was on previous hardware. Also, there was a LOT of 3rd party games available during that period too, as well as a whole heap of Sega software. Hands down the best software period Nintendo have ever had.
Fierce_LiNk Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Also, the Wii U certainly did not have better games in its first 18 months than other Nintendo consoles, not by a long LONG way. The Gamecube's first 18 months was absolutely extraordinary in terms of software; they brought new and inventive titles that were a clear step up from the N64 (and PS2, for that matter). Melee, Luigi's Mansion, Rogue Squadron, Mario Sunshine, The Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Wave Race, Pikmin, Eternal Darkness. Look at that line up. Look at it. You've got brand new I.P on top of bigger, much better games than what was on previous hardware. Also, there was a LOT of 3rd party games available during that period too, as well as a whole heap of Sega software. Hands down the best software period Nintendo have ever had. A billion times this. Nintendo's output for the WiiU has been good, but they can't touch the quality of those games that you listed. The only two games that I think would give any of those a run for their money are Pikmin 3 and Wonderful 101. What's also worth reminding is that some of these were complete game changers. Although Melee was a sequel, it changed things as far as multiplayer fighters go and in terms of breadth of content within a game. Metroid Prime is one of the greatest games of all time (not an opinion, btw, the majority of top 10/20/50 lists will include this game) and Pikmin was a form of art. Rogue Squadron blew me away and was the game that convinced me to buy a GameCube. Eternal Darkness is one of my favourite games ever. Add that in with the third party stuff, and the GC was super strong for the first two years. Nintendo's output after that drifted away dramatically. It's a shame. Had we had the same quality in the final two years as we had the first two, we'd have all been laughing whilst drowning in quality content. Edited August 10, 2014 by Fierce_LiNk
Sheikah Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Also, the Wii U certainly did not have better games in its first 18 months than other Nintendo consoles, not by a long LONG way. The Gamecube's first 18 months was absolutely extraordinary in terms of software; they brought new and inventive titles that were a clear step up from the N64 (and PS2, for that matter). Melee, Luigi's Mansion, Rogue Squadron, Mario Sunshine, The Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Wave Race, Pikmin, Eternal Darkness. Look at that line up. Look at it. You've got brand new I.P on top of bigger, much better games than what was on previous hardware. Also, there was a LOT of 3rd party games available during that period too, as well as a whole heap of Sega software. Hands down the best software period Nintendo have ever had. This section accurately describes the problem. Very little imagination left within Nintendo these days, mostly just a sequel culture. While other consoles do sequels, at least between generations we see more of a step up (as well as there being more new kinds of games too).
Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) This section accurately describes the problem. Very little imagination left within Nintendo these days, mostly just a sequel culture. While other consoles do sequels, at least between generations we see more of a step up (as well as there being more new kinds of games too). That's bull. Sure, there are "sequels", but Nintendo put their amazing and creative ideas into said sequels. Just because it uses an established character does not mean it's not creative. Also, with the other consoles, please tell me the "step up" Sony and Microsoft have done with their software, because I honestly don't see it.. I also argue that Nintendo's games are a step up from previous generations. People just focus too much on New Super Mario Bros. U and use it as the poster-boy, even when it's not necessarily valid. Yes, the Gamecube did have a lot new to it, but that's because the generational leap between the consoles was so large, especially compared to the last two. Edited August 10, 2014 by Serebii
Ashley Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Nothing is bull, people just have different expectations and responses. Let's not go down this route again please people.
Sheikah Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Not bull at all, Serebii. Perhaps you should read people's posts a little better. Melee - incredible step up Luigi's Mansion - new Rogue Squadron - new Mario Sunshine - incredible step up The Wind Waker - words not needed Metroid Prime -totally new direction Wave Race - (pretty much) new Pikmin - new Eternal Darkness - new Wii U ain't got jack on that. A lot of the big stuff I have played so far from them is very derivative content (particularly NSMBU, Mario Kart, SM3DW, DKC, Pikmin). And if you want to compare, maybe wait until PS4 has been out the same length of time as Wii U. Until then, pipe down. Edited August 10, 2014 by Sheikah
Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Not bull at all, Serebii. Perhaps you should read people's posts a little better. Melee - incredible step up Luigi's Mansion - (pretty much) new Rogue Squadron - new Mario Sunshine - incredible step up The Wind Waker - words not needed Metroid Prime -totally new direction Wave Race - new Pikmin - new Eternal Darkness - new Wii U ain't got jack on that. And if you want to compare, maybe wait until PS4 has been out the same length of time as Wii U. Until then, pipe down. Rogue Squadron wasn't new, and it also wasn't first party. Activision published it here, for example. Wave Race wasn't new either. That started in 1992 for Christ's sake. Good god man. I also wasn't disputing that. Please actually read my posts before you just jump on me, and probably best for you to fact check next time, too
Retro_Link Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I was also having a think about Retro Studios. With the Metroid Prime series they had an engine they were able to bring us a trilogy of games from. And this is generally what will often happen from developers over the course of a console: Metroid, Halo, Gears, Assassins Creed, Uncharted... Putting aside whether you were happy to receive another DKC or not, because I think we can all agree on the quality of the game... and yes we don't know what they are working on, but I can't help think they now find themselves in the unenviable task of starting a brand new project mid console cycle. And this is likely to cause a considerable delay on their output this generation. Nintendo are hugely reliant on Retro Studios to provide quality output in some of the gaps left by their own development, and so I do wonder if they've taken a bit of a misstep.
Sheikah Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I'd already edited the detail about Wave Race, even though its 3D iteration essentially was new. But it seems you're basically correcting unimportant things because they're things you feel like you can 'win' on (and not the actual point I'm making). You know, just because I'm expressing an opinion that they've become very derivative you don't have to immediately jump on my post as if I have directed a personal remark at your very own family.
Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I'd already edited the detail about Wave Race, even though its 3D iteration essentially was new. But it seems you're basically correcting unimportant things because they're things you feel like you can 'win' on (and not the actual point I'm making). You know, just because I'm expressing an opinion that they've become very derivative you don't have to immediately jump on my post as if I have directed a personal remark at your very own family. No, its 3D iteration wasn't new. It was a sequel to the 1996 hit game, Wave Race 64, so again your fact checking is flawed.
Sheikah Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 No, its 3D iteration wasn't new. It was a sequel to the 1996 hit game, Wave Race 64, so again your fact checking is flawed. But it seems you're basically correcting unimportant things because they're things you feel like you can 'win' on (and not the actual point I'm making). Do you see what I mean?
Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Do you see what I mean? No. I'm just not countering other things because, as you say, it's opinion and I don't jump on people for their opinions unless they're being utterly ridiculous. You didn't state an opinion, you stated something as an empirical fact, stating that there is no creativity remaining in Nintendo, just a sequel culture. That was not given as an opinion, you were stating that as a fact, and that is why I countered it, because it is not a fact.
Sheikah Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 No. I'm just not countering other things because, as you say, it's opinion and I don't jump on people for their opinions unless they're being utterly ridiculous. You didn't state an opinion, you stated something as an empirical fact, stating that there is no creativity remaining in Nintendo, just a sequel culture. That was not given as an opinion, you were stating that as a fact, and that is why I countered it, because it is not a fact. Tell me how I stated this as a fact? I'm intrigued at how you took it that way. Are you telling me you interpret all language literally like a robot?
Serebii Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Tell me how I stated this as a fact? I'm intrigued at how you took it that way. That is how it is worded. Your entire post is stated as if it's fact. This section accurately describes the problem. Very little imagination left within Nintendo these days, mostly just a sequel culture. While other consoles do sequels, at least between generations we see more of a step up (as well as there being more new kinds of games too). See. Perhaps you should be more concise or add an ", at least in my opinion" at the end if you wish to convey something as an opinion.
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