Ashley Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 They could have got rid of the Bowser filler clones kids...
Serebii Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Koopalings are awesome. If anything, it's criminal that it took so long for them to come here.
Ashley Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 They're literally indistinguishable from each other. As half-way bosses they're fine, as roster fodder they're a pain.
Dcubed Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) TBH, I think that everyone here ragging about the lack of Gamepad use with MK8 are shouting at the wrong game here. Nobody really complained about the lack of GBA-GCN connectivity in MKDD or touch controls in MKDS or the lack of motion-only stuff in MK Wii... Mario Kart is a series that takes advantage of new hardware features but in a way that doesn't necessarily define the game itself (not unlike Smash Bros really). The only exceptions to this are SMK (Mode 7, that one's obvious) and MK64 (3D graphics, again an obvious forward direction for the series as you could now have track designs that take advantage of verticality). Usually MK games make use of new hardware features in less obvious ways than you'd expect. Super Circuit makes use of the fact that each individual game cart was personal, so that's why they allowed trading of ghost data over link cable; likewise Double Dash made use of the GCN's LAN capabilities to have more players as well as the analogue shoulder buttons for more subtle turning control (as well as the enhanced horsepower to enable more characters onscreen and more complex level design as well as an actual realistic physics handling model - that is still totally unique in the series!) Mario Kart DS made use of the map on the touch screen for when you get hit by the blooper item (the idea being that you would make use of the map to find your way while you can't see properly) and it took advantage of the DS' bigger save space on the game card to save custom decals (as well as touch controls for drawing), not to mention the obvious addition of online play and 8 player local wireless. Mario Kart Wii was designed much like SSBB in that it was meant to be customisable to fit however the player wanted to play, but you still had things like the addition of Miis, the trick system (which was awkward to pull off on the GCN or Classic Controller and would've been designed differently if it were designed for those controllers first and foremost - as it was changed in MK7), the ability to save far more ghosts, better online connectivity, the Mario Kart Channel etc... Mario Kart 7 was much more about convenience than anything else really as it streamlined everything about Wii - befitting the pickupandplay nature of handheld play. The touch screen use was more pragmatic than anything else (much like it is in MK8), as was the use of the gyro. SD Card support was a big focus too as the limits on ghost data saving were finally lifted completely and as such, time trials became a bigger focus than ever before. Otherwise it was a logical succession from MKDS with enhancements to presentation, online play etc. And now MK8 is focused on making use of everything about the Wii U except for the Gamepad itself. Miiverse, HD graphics, the many multiple control schemes on offer, the ability to have patches/game updates delivered over Spotpass, online video sharing/streaming, companion apps etc. It might not be a good look from a PR perspective, but it's no different from the approach that the Mario Kart team have taken with every game in the series really Edited May 18, 2014 by Dcubed
Ashley Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) I wholeheartedly disagree And that's what makes the world beautiful TBH, I think thin-eryone here ragging about the lack of Gamepad use with MK8 are shouting at the wrong game here. Nobody really complained about the lack of GBA-GCN connectivity in MKDD or touch controls in MKDS or the lack of motion-only stuff in MK Wii... Mario Kart is a series that takes advantage of new hardware features but in a way that doesn't necessarily define the game itself (not unlike Smash Bros really). The only exceptions to this are SMK (Mode 7, that one's obvious) and MK64 (3D graphics, again an obvious forward direction for the series as you could now have track designs that take advantage of verticality). Usually MK games make use of new hardware features in less obvious ways than you'd expect. Super Circuit makes use of the fact that each individual game cart was personal, so that's why they allowed trading of ghost data over link cable; likewise Double Dash made use of the GCN's LAN capabilities to have more players as well as the analogue shoulder buttons for more subtle turning control (as well as the enhanced horsepower to enable more characters onscreen and more complex level design as well as an actual realistic physics handling model - that is still totally unique in the series!) Mario Kart DS made use of the map on the touch screen for when you get hit by the blooper item (the idea being that you would make use of the map to find your way while you can't see properly) and it took advantage of the DS' bigger save space on the game card to save custom decals (as well as touch controls for drawing), not to mention the obvious addition of online play and 8 player local wireless. Mario Kart Wii was designed much like SSBB in that it was meant to be customisable to fit however the player wanted to play, but you still had things like the addition of Miis, the trick system (which was awkward to pull off on the GCN or Classic Controller and would've been designed differently if it were designed for those controllers first and foremost - as it was changed in MK7), the ability to save far more ghosts, better online connectivity, the Mario Kart Channel etc... Mario Kart 7 was much more about convenience than anything else really as it streamlined everything about Wii - befitting the pickupandplay nature of handheld play. The touch screen use was more pragmatic than anything else (much like it is in MK8), as was the use of the gyro. SD Card support was a big focus too as the limits on ghost data saving were finally lifted completely and as such, time trials became a bigger focus than ever before. Otherwise it was a logical succession from MKDS with enhancements to presentation, online play etc. And now MK8 is focused on making use of everything about the Wii U except for the Gamepad itself. Miiverse, HD graphics, the many multiple control schemes on offer, the ability to have patches/game updates delivered over Spotpass, online video sharing/streaming, companion apps etc. It might not be a good look from a PR perspective, but it's no different from the approach that the Mario Kart team have taken with every game in the series really That might well be a true and valid point, but I think people are discussing it because it's another brick in the wall known as "what do we really need the GamePad for?" Since launch, it's only been integral for a very small number of Nintendo games (NintendoLand and Party U for example) while most have used it, but at a fairly minimalistic level (3D World, this, Zelda) that while it added flourish and some ease, hardly required the GamePad. While every game doesn't need to push it, to have so few games integrate it fully suggests to the public it's a price increasing pack in with little in-game use and for developers suggests there's no reason to try. Yes, Nintendo has promised to use it more in the future and hopefully that should change things, but right now... the GamePad feels similar to Kinect. And my person opinion about it's usage in this game is that it hampers the experience. By trying to force some usage out of it they've taken away some key elements of the series. Namely the on-screen map! And unfortunately Nintendo has yet to give me reason to believe that they'll patch it in, but I hope that they do. Edited May 18, 2014 by Ashley Automerged Doublepost
Dcubed Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) And that's what makes the world beautiful That might well be a true and valid point, but I think people are discussing it because it's another brick in the wall known as "what do we really need the GamePad for?" Since launch, it's only been integral for a very small number of Nintendo games (NintendoLand and Party U for example) while most have used it, but at a fairly minimalistic level (3D World, this, Zelda) that while it added flourish and some ease, hardly required the GamePad. While every game doesn't need to push it, to have so few games integrate it fully suggests to the public it's a price increasing pack in with little in-game use and for developers suggests there's no reason to try. Yes, Nintendo has promised to use it more in the future and hopefully that should change things, but right now... the GamePad feels similar to Kinect. And my person opinion about it's usage in this game is that it hampers the experience. By trying to force some usage out of it they've taken away some key elements of the series. Namely the on-screen map! And unfortunately Nintendo has yet to give me reason to believe that they'll patch it in, but I hope that they do. From the way that Kosuke Yabuki put it in an interview a few weeks ago, it sounds like they were planning on getting rid of the map anyway, Gamepad or not... We’ve changed the style of Battle mode for Mario Kart 8 to use circuits that lots of people can play on. Players won’t know when a rival will appear from around a corner, which will bring a new sense of excitement and strategy to this mode. In terms of rules, we designed it for playing with 12 players, including the CPU. In the beginning, you have to defeat the CPU players and earn your score, and towards the end it becomes a battle between just human players. That’s the real thrill of it! It should also be a fresh experience for users to be able to race backwards around the circuits they are familiar with. I’m sure there will be a few people who aren’t so sure about us moving away from how we’ve done things previously, but I hope they try it out for themselves first. I’m sure it will be a new experience for everyone, [and] like no other battles in Mario Kart before. I don't think they would've incorporated the map, even if there was no Gamepad... I do agree that it's a bit of bad timing here, but it's good really that the designers don't feel forced to make use of the Gamepad outside of basic stuff if it doesn't fit their vision of the game. It's not like there aren't a good number of games that make great use of it, but it's more a matter of a lot of 1st party games (that don't use the Gamepad in a fundamental way) that are hitting in quick succession; so it gives that bad impression at a bad time... Edited May 18, 2014 by Dcubed
S.C.G Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 I don't think that this game ever really needed to take full advantage of the Gamepad but I do feel that after launch Nintendo should patch in the option of having the map on screen, times for races in GP displayed 'somewhere' and possibly even a proper trophy presentation screen. Aside from that, I can't wait to play it at launch just as I can't wait to see what Gamepad utilising games they will surely have prepared for us at E3 along with more staple classics of course. For now though, roll on 30/05/14! : peace: (*29/05 for ShopTo orders) *Assuming they don't screw up with the 'free t-shirt' situation, managing to delay posting of the game.
Ashley Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 From the way that Kosuke Yabuki put it in an interview a few weeks ago, it sounds like they were planning on getting rid of the map, Gamepad or not... I don't think they would've incorporated the map, even if there was no Gamepad... But that's just the battle mode he refers to, which makes sense. It's not in GP which is quite frustrating.
Dcubed Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) But that's just the battle mode he refers to, which makes sense. It's not in GP which is quite frustrating. If that element of surprise is a big focus in the battle mode, then it's not hard to believe that they wanted a similar feeling in the VS mode. It's not like it's something that they don't understand the use for (after all, every single previous MK game has an onscreen map... in both VS AND Battle Mode...), or even something that would be difficult or take long to implement, but rather it's probably just a deliberate design decision because they wanted to bring about a more surprising and strategic feeling to the gameplay. It's just one of those usual Nintendo oddities with their games. Like the coins you pick up; you would think that they would keep them in every game, but instead they just come and go as the designers please... It does seem to give the Gamepad player an interesting advantage over the others too. Maybe that was another idea they were going for, a subtle handicap of sorts for more novice players... Edited May 18, 2014 by Dcubed
Ashley Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 But the map adds strategy to gameplay, removing it just means you're racing blindly. I can't see any justifiable reason to have excluded it other than "we wanted to". Plus it's still on the GamePad. If it was completely removed that'd be one thing, but they've simply moved it to the most inconvenient place and only given it to one player. If they thought there was a reason they could have made it an option and track its usage online to make an informed decision about what fans want for the next game.
Dcubed Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) But the map adds strategy to gameplay, removing it just means you're racing blindly. I can't see any justifiable reason to have excluded it other than "we wanted to". Plus it's still on the GamePad. If it was completely removed that'd be one thing, but they've simply moved it to the most inconvenient place and only given it to one player. If they thought there was a reason they could have made it an option and track its usage online to make an informed decision about what fans want for the next game. Taking it away adds a new element of strategy/mindgames that they've never had before in the series. They've done the whole map thing 7 times before after all... They obviously had a vision for the game as a whole and felt that the onscreen map didn't fit what they wanted to do with this game (though they seem to have kept it on the Gamepad to offer a handicap advantage, which is an interesting element of asymmetric gameplay too, if only a subtle one). Nintendo EAD's designers generally prefer to eschew options in favour of a specifically designed and tailor made experience (that's also why their games generally lack multiple difficulties and stuff like New Game + too). Other designers like Yoshio Sakamoto, most of the designers at Intelligent Systems and especially Masahiro Sakurai (who absolutlely LOVES options and the ability for the player to define their own way of playing) take a very different approach though and generally like to include lots of different gameplay options, custom creation tools (map editors, character design tools etc), multiple difficulties, multiple endings, New Game + and that kind of stuff. It's just a matter of different designers having their own preferred way of designing games Edited May 18, 2014 by Dcubed
Ashley Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Not that I don't respect your opinion or anything (so please don't read it as such), but I'd like to hear what you think of the map thing a few weeks after launch. Curious about it if that's okay?
Serebii Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Well I never use the map so I don't care if it's there or not :p
Dcubed Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Not that I don't respect your opinion or anything (so please don't read it as such), but I'd like to hear what you think of the map thing a few weeks after launch. Curious about it if that's okay? Of course I'm interested in how the game will feel without it myself. It's a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but it's the little things like that that make each MK game interesting Especially the new battle mode. I've been disappointed by the last two MK games in that regard for similar reasons (I HATED the re-spawning mechanic and the time limit; took all of the tension and mindgames out of the battle mode and just turned it into an item spam fest MK7 thankfully got rid of the forced team battles but it still kept the other stuff I disliked about MKWii's battle mode) so I'm really happy to see them return to having limited balloons and one life For the record, I think that MK64 had the best battle mode (Those infinitely bouncing green shells and the bomb buggy make ALL the difference! ), followed by MKDS>SMK>MKDD>MKSC>MK7>MKWii Edited May 18, 2014 by Dcubed
Fierce_LiNk Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Personally, I don't use the map all that much. But, it makes zero sense to take it out. Occasionally I'll glance at it to see how far ahead I am of the person behind me. I just don't get why it's removed from the tv screen...why not just simply give us an option where we can decide where the map gets displayed? There's quite a lot of "little" problems with this that seem annoying more than anything, nothing really game breaking I guess. Still, I do wonder what goes on at Nintendo HQ sometimes as they do make some baffling decisions. The character roster, the lack of GamePad usage, the split-screen on GamePad screen, voice-chat not in game, etc. I'm semi-looking forward to it, but it's not the Mario Kart it could have been. It could have truly been a killer title with all of these features.
Ville Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Yeah it seems like they only want to do it their way and that's it. Why not give players the flexibility to choose what features to implement or not? If you have voice chat, have to option to turn it off; if you have a map on the screen, make it possible to display that on the gamepad or not at all etc. I mean it's not exactly brain surgery...plus different people have different preferences. In Monster Hunter for example you can choose what to display on the screen and what on the gamepad, lots of different combinations. I chose to display everything on the screen, and appreciated the flexibility very much. Simple as that...
Fierce_LiNk Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Yeah it seems like they only want to do it their way and that's it. Why not give players the flexibility to choose what features to implement or not? If you have voice chat, have to option to turn it off; if you have a map on the screen, make it possible to display that on the gamepad or not at all etc. I mean it's not exactly brain surgery...plus different people have different preferences. In Monster Hunter for example you can choose what to display on the screen and what on the gamepad, lots of different combinations. I chose to display everything on the screen, and appreciated the flexibility very much. Simple as that... That's the kind of flexibility that I was hoping the GamePad could provide. That way you can save the on-screen stuff that can clutter up the telly and put all of that on the GamePad screen. It just seems such an obvious usage of it and it would be using the screen in a useful way.
Serebii Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 That's the kind of flexibility that I was hoping the GamePad could provide. That way you can save the on-screen stuff that can clutter up the telly and put all of that on the GamePad screen. It just seems such an obvious usage of it and it would be using the screen in a useful way. Isn't that what they're doing here...
Fierce_LiNk Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Isn't that what they're doing here... No, because they're not giving gamers that option to customise things to how they want to play. You should be able to decide where you want the information to go. Taking it off the tv screen disadvantages all of the other GamePad-less gamers. If there was some sort of way you could say to them, "right, do you want the map or not, we can turn it on or off, or move it to my screen because I want it," that would be better. Again, it's the same with the voice-chat. By taking it out of the in-game section completely, you're forcing the choice amongst gamers. Having the choice is far, far better than getting none at all. The reasons behind their choices are also flimsy at best and it really shows how out of touch Nintendo is with the modern gamer.
Dcubed Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Yeah it seems like they only want to do it their way and that's it. Why not give players the flexibility to choose what features to implement or not? If you have voice chat, have to option to turn it off; if you have a map on the screen, make it possible to display that on the gamepad or not at all etc. I mean it's not exactly brain surgery...plus different people have different preferences. In Monster Hunter for example you can choose what to display on the screen and what on the gamepad, lots of different combinations. I chose to display everything on the screen, and appreciated the flexibility very much. Simple as that... Sticking to the one set design means that they can take advantage of the lack of a map into the course design itself. They might design the new courses in such a way that there are lots more twists and turns than normal, or multiple floors where you can't see the other players in immediate sight, or have shortcuts where you go through different paths or pipes that take you to different parts of the track so that your opponent wont know where you currently are... (these are just some general examples off the top of my head, I have no idea how they're actually taking advantage of it in MK8 itself, but these are just some ways that they could make use of it as an example) If the map was just a toggle on&off then you couldn't make use of these design aspects when designing the new tracks as it would completely undermine the design... The voice chat thing is still stupid though. It would make no difference to the gameplay itself if they had voice chat while you're racing so they should've just included an option for that... Going option heavy and option light are both valid forms of game design. Neither is inherently "better" than the other. A game like Zelda could never be made in the same way as something like Smash Bros (with its heavy focus on gameplay customisation) or Bravely Default for instance Edited May 18, 2014 by Dcubed
Ronnie Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Well this thread has turned into a barrel of laughs, and not at all nitpicky.
Glen-i Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Not that I don't respect your opinion or anything (so please don't read it as such), but I'd like to hear what you think of the map thing a few weeks after launch. Curious about it if that's okay? I know this comment isn't aimed at me, but the only time I ever found myself looking at a map in Mario Kart was on DS and 7. And that was only when I got hit with a blooper (Which I felt ruined the point of that item). In every other game, the on-screen map was so small and undetailed, I found it completely useless. So I'm not gonna miss it one bit.
Dcubed Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 I know this comment isn't aimed at me, but the only time I ever found myself looking at a map in Mario Kart was on DS and 7. And that was only when I got hit with a blooper (Which I felt ruined the point of that item). In every other game, the on-screen map was so small and undetailed, I found it completely useless. So I'm not gonna miss it one bit. The reason why that item existed in the first place was to encourage you to look at the bottom screen map though... If anything, it was MKWii that missed the point (but the ink spatter was less pronounced in that game, making it easier to see where you were going when you got blasted with it anyway... balance! - shame that they didn't apply that to the bikes to the same extent though :p)
Glen-i Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 The reason why that item existed in the first place was to encourage you to look at the bottom screen map though... If anything, it was MKWii that missed the point (but the ink spatter was less pronounced in that game, making it easier to see where you were going when you got blasted with it anyway... balance! - shame that they didn't apply that to the bikes to the same extent though :p) I still think the Blooper was useless in the handheld games. When did you ever get that item and think "Oh neat, this will give the people ahead of me a hard time"? At least in Wii, there was a chance that a ink splodge would cover up an obstacle/item, causing someone to hit it.
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