Goron_3 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 No one said that, in fact I suggested the opposite was true. The day Nintendo becomes about shooters and openworld action games just to cater to modern gaming tastes is the day I stop being a Nintendo fan. @Sheikah was arguing that Nintendo iterates and releases the same games all the time, and that this holds them and sales back. I suggested this certainly wasn't the case and even if it were, the competition release the same sequels far more often, and in far worse ways, and it doesn't stop them selling like crazy. With the advent of stunning 1080p graphics, people just want different things and sadly for Nintendo, gaming has moved on from their type of gameplay-first titles. As for diversity, in the next six months the Wii U will have a 2D platformer, strategy adventure, openworld adventure, survival horror, action strategy, action adventure, 3D platformer, kart racer, hack and slash, 3D puzzler, brawler, third person shooter, RPG, level creator and space shooter in their first party offerings. It's tough to get more diverse than that. I never claimed this is what Nintendo should become. I don't even know why you felt the need to bring that up. In terms of varied art styles, look at screenshots on the Mario games on Wii U, Pikmin, Nintendo Land, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Mario Kart, Smash and Yoshi. In terms of the competition releasing the same games again and again, year after year, can you point to examples of Sony and Microsoft have done the same? Whilst I may agree (slightly on the latter), I can't ever recall Sony doing that. Your previous comparisons have been directed at 3rd parties which is really odd.
Aneres11 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 GTA 5, Halo 5, Metal Gear Solid 5, Witcher 3, Forza 6, Batman Arkham 4, Tomb Raider Whatever… Such diversity, such originality. Sorry, but I'm a massive Nintendo fan and I love most of the games they make (though Zelda I just can't get into - I'm weird), but the list you've quoted there actually is very diverse? To me, anyway. Batman is a must have game for me this year, providing it turns out well which I have every faith it will. Tomb Raider was a critical and commercial success and Forza is a brilliant series which is only every other year - enough time to make it fairly different from it's predecessor. Don't mean to get involved as I hate this petty squabbling but your point makes no sense here with that list of games. It is ok to accept that some people like the output from the other consoles you know. Regardless of you thinking they're not particularly diverse or engaging. But that's what's so good about choice, right? : peace:
Eddage Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 GTA 5, Halo 5, Metal Gear Solid 5, Witcher 3, Forza 6, Batman Arkham 4, Tomb Raider Whatever… Such diversity, such originality. But yes, a new Mario Kart or Smash every 6 years is the truly heinous crime, such franchise fatigue!! The trouble, in my opinion, with Nintendo's iterative sequels is their lack of focus on story, therefore they really do start to feel samey. You mention three Witcher games as an example of being boring and repetitive. The thing is though these games tweak and refine the gameplay from version to version (like Nintendo do) but also have MASSIVE expansive stories that you can get completely lost in - something you never get between different versions of Super Mario. The same goes for your Tomb Raiders, Assassins Creeds, GTAs, etc. The only series of Nintendo's that I can really think of with some focus on story is Zelda, but even then the differences between each game aren't that great.
Ronnie Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Sorry, but I'm a massive Nintendo fan and I love most of the games they make (though Zelda I just can't get into - I'm weird), but the list you've quoted there actually is very diverse? To me, anyway. I never said they weren't diverse. The discussion revolved around iterative sequels, and how Nintendo releasing new games in a franchise like Kart or Smash is somehow responsible for franchise fatigue, when developers on Sony and Xbox do it every year, or multiple times a year.
Goron_3 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) On a subject related Wii U VC... Super Mario 64 is simply incredible. The precision and physics engine (particularly the momentum) is so well done and it's astonishing that they got everything SO right on their first attempt. What's even more amazing that they actually went a step further with Sunshine, although that game lacked the polish that their others titles had. I hope we see them push the limits of game design like this again. The widening of input windows and lowering of the skill floor in 3D World really hurt that game for me..why dumb down a physics engine so significantly? Just completed Hazy Mazy Cave..man, getting the 8 red coins on that level is absolutely ridiculous. Worst mission in the game for me. Thankfully everyone else is awesome Oh, and the Wall Jump mechanic totally reminds me of Super Metroid, where you can accidently discover it and start using it in places you weren't meant to. For example, I entered the Ghost World today and used the wall jump to get to the upper floor of the mansion straight away. I absolutely love getting the stars out of order Edit. @Ronnie, you listed 3rd party iterative sequels though, so the comparison makes zero sense. Again, make an appropriate comparison to get the ball rolling. Edited April 30, 2015 by Goron_3
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I never said they weren't diverse. The discussion revolved around iterative sequels, and how Nintendo releasing new games in a franchise like Kart or Smash is somehow responsible for franchise fatigue, when developers on Sony and Xbox do it every year, or multiple times a year. GTA 5, Halo 5, Metal Gear Solid 5, Witcher 3, Forza 6, Batman Arkham 4, Tomb Raider Whatever… Such diversity, such originality. But yes, a new Mario Kart or Smash every 6 years is the truly heinous crime, such franchise fatigue!! I've seen the comparison made between Netlfix and PSNow and I think it's a good one to make. I stream tv (NowTV and Netflix), I stream music (spotify) and I regret absolutely nothing. I'm all for it, it's very good value for money. What excites me most about the PSNow stuff is that the technology is already there and it works. It may or may not work perfectly 100% of the time, but that technology will simply get better and I'm convinced it is the way forward. I remember I originally signed up for Spotify free and songs would initially cut out when I lost connection, but the service is absolutely flawless now. Best tenner a month I spend. I'd be happy for Nintendo to do something similar, or at least offer something subscription based. If they did go down the streaming route, it wouldn't put so much pressure on them to actually put a decent sized HDD in the system to begin with, as both the Wii and WiiU's storage is pathetic out of the box. I've seen tons of people mention on here how they'd sign up for a subscription virtual console, I think it would take off.
Ronnie Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I meant diversity within the series themselves. How the games all play the same way, look the same way etc. Later mention of diversity I assumed was referring to a diverse library of genres.
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I meant diversity within the series themselves. How the games all play the same way, look the same way etc. Later mention of diversity I assumed was referring to a diverse library of genres. Which ones of these games that you mentioned have you actually played yourself? Tomb Raider, for example, is just in a completely different league to its predecessors.
Ronnie Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 If Sheikah is going to argue that Sunshine is similar to Galaxy and Double Dash is similar to MK8, then I can say that GTA V is similar to GTA 4 or COD 9 is similar to COD 7, and Assasin's Creed Unity is similar to... etc etc
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 If Sheikah is going to argue that Sunshine is similar to Galaxy and Double Dash is similar to MK8, then I can say that GTA V is similar to GTA 4 or COD 9 is similar to COD 7, and Assasin's Creed Unity is similar to... etc etc Ok, whatever makes you happy, brah.
Eddage Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 If Sheikah is going to argue that Sunshine is similar to Galaxy and Double Dash is similar to MK8, then I can say that GTA V is similar to GTA 4 or COD 9 is similar to COD 7, and Assasin's Creed Unity is similar to... etc etc Yet you haven't played those games so how can you possibly know? Also I like how you've conveniently ignored my post regarding story being a huge differentiator between these sequels you've never played
Ronnie Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Yet you haven't played those games so how can you possibly know? Also I like how you've conveniently ignored my post regarding story being a huge differentiator between these sequels you've never played Because you don't have to have played COD to see that every COD game is identical with minor changes. Didn't ignore your post, I completely agree with it, but storyline isn't necessary in Mario Kart and Smash, the two more often quoted examples of samey Nintendo games. Zelda alternates between a Groundhog day cycle of the moon falling, to a cel-chaded adventure in a sailboat to a game where you transform into a wolf. And Mario is all about gameplay, and they do something with each installment in that regard all the time (apart from the New series I suppose).
Dcubed Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) Since when did this thread become the catch all Nintendo discussion thread? On a subject related Wii U VC... Super Mario 64 is simply incredible. The precision and physics engine (particularly the momentum) is so well done and it's astonishing that they got everything SO right on their first attempt. What's even more amazing that they actually went a step further with Sunshine, although that game lacked the polish that their others titles had. I hope we see them push the limits of game design like this again. The widening of input windows and lowering of the skill floor in 3D World really hurt that game for me..why dumb down a physics engine so significantly? Just completed Hazy Mazy Cave..man, getting the 8 red coins on that level is absolutely ridiculous. Worst mission in the game for me. Thankfully everyone else is awesome Oh, and the Wall Jump mechanic totally reminds me of Super Metroid, where you can accidently discover it and start using it in places you weren't meant to. For example, I entered the Ghost World today and used the wall jump to get to the upper floor of the mansion straight away. I absolutely love getting the stars out of order Edit. @Ronnie, you listed 3rd party iterative sequels though, so the comparison makes zero sense. Again, make an appropriate comparison to get the ball rolling. Well it probably would've been simply overwhelming had they gone for SM64/SMS style physics in a game like SM3DW. EAD Tokyo's games feature much more compact and tightly focused level designs that revel in per-level gimmicks; much more than what you see in the first two 3D Mario games (which are very sparsely laid out in comparison and feature much fewer moment to moment level mechanics). A game like SM3DW or SMG would be frustrating to play if the physics engine was as momentum based as SM64 or SMS; sort of like what Tetris would be like if it had realistic physics. It's just a matter of design focus. But yes, it's really shocking just how well designed SM64 is; especially for their first bloody attempt!! It broke an obscene amount of ground when it came out (and still does many things that most games today can't even begin to compete with, like Mario's base physics engine) Edited April 30, 2015 by Dcubed
Eddage Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Because you don't have to have played COD to see that every COD game is identical with minor changes. Yeah because COD was the only game you accused of being repetitive... Didn't ignore your post, I completely agree with it, but storyline isn't necessary in Mario Kart and Smash, the two more often quoted examples of samey Nintendo games. Then surely you can understand why people feel they are samey? How many different ways can you drive 3 laps around a track to try and finish top of a 4 race grand prix? Yes, new tracks, new characters, new mechanics but at the heart of it all the same game. That's why I sold Mario Kart 8 a couple of months after I got it because I felt like I had done it all before. Zelda alternates between a Groundhog day cycle of the moon falling, to a cel-chaded adventure in a sailboat to a game where you transform into a wolf. Yet how many times has the gameplay revolved around you collecting three items then witnessing an event and travelling forward in time/warping to the dark world/some other story progression to then collect a few more items (usually seven)? I adore the Zelda games but can still see how some people may feel bored with them. Although I am eagerly awaiting Zelda U since it looks like its going to be a proper departure from the formula. And Mario is all about gameplay, and they do something with each installment in that regard all the time (apart from the New series I suppose). Yes but the gameplay changes aren't drastic, e.g. Mario 3D Land -> Mario 3D World, they added a cat suit... How many times have I beaten Bowser? That is the reason they start to feel samey.
Ronnie Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Yeah because COD was the only game you accused of being repetitive... Ok, GTA, Battlefield, Creed, Fifa, Mortal Kombat, Uncharted, Halo, Metal Gear, Forza, Batman. I accused them of being repetitive when @Sheikah claimed Nintendo does it and that it is bad. Criticising Nintendo is obviously relished and encouraged on here, but the second you criticise the competition people jump down your throat. How many times can you go around killing people in Assassin's Creed or fighting the same characters in Mortal Kombat. Gaming IS iterative these days. Give me Nintendo's approach of releasing a similar Smash or Kart every 6 years than annualised Creeds or CODs.
Eddage Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Ok, GTA, Battlefield, Creed, Fifa, Mortal Kombat, Uncharted, Halo, Metal Gear, Forza, Batman. I accused them of being repetitive when @Sheikah claimed Nintendo does it and that it is bad. Criticising Nintendo is obviously relished and encouraged on here, but the second you criticise the competition people jump down your throat. How many times can you go around killing people in Assassin's Creed or fighting the same characters in Mortal Kombat. Gaming IS iterative these days. Give me Nintendo's approach of releasing a similar Smash or Kart every 6 years than annualised Creeds or CODs. You're missing my whole point about story. People are willing to go around killing people in Assassin's Creed because of the story - a story that spans multiple games, a story that people become invested in. The same for Metal Gear Solid, etc. Even the new Mortal Kombat is meant to have a good solo campaign with a, wait for it, proper story. That is why these sequels don't have the same repetitive feeling even though you are sometimes doing similar things. If Nintendo put more focus into story then people wouldn't have these feelings about their games. Surely this is simple enough to understand?
Goron_3 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Ok, GTA, Battlefield, Creed, Fifa, Mortal Kombat, Uncharted, Halo, Metal Gear, Forza, Batman. I accused them of being repetitive when @Sheikah claimed Nintendo does it and that it is bad. Criticising Nintendo is obviously relished and encouraged on here, but the second you criticise the competition people jump down your throat. How many times can you go around killing people in Assassin's Creed or fighting the same characters in Mortal Kombat. Gaming IS iterative these days. Give me Nintendo's approach of releasing a similar Smash or Kart every 6 years than annualised Creeds or CODs. Again your comparing 1st party output to 3rd parties... A better example would be to compare to 1st party Sony titles. In 2013 Sony released The Last of Us, Puppeteer, Beyond, Sly 4 and GT6, and in 2014 they introduced DriveClub, Knack and a Killzone title. Surely that's pretty similar to Nintendo's output of recent sequels, especially at the expense of new AAA titles? Yes we're getting X but 4 years after the consoles announcement?
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I smell a thread rip. *sits there whistling after realising that he doesn't mod this board*
Ronnie Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 You're missing my whole point about story. People are willing to go around killing people in Assassin's Creed because of the story - a story that spans multiple games, a story that people become invested in. The same for Metal Gear Solid, etc. Even the new Mortal Kombat is meant to have a good solo campaign with a, wait for it, proper story. That is why these sequels don't have the same repetitive feeling even though you are sometimes doing similar things. If Nintendo put more focus into story then people wouldn't have these feelings about their games. Surely this is simple enough to understand? People care about the story in Assassin's Creed? That's news to me. I thought the running joke was that they just care about the gameplay. Why would Nintendo put more focus into story in their games? What games of theirs need more story-telling? Ok, we're just going in circles now. So basically, Nintendo = shit (obv) for always releasing the same game over and over, once every six years. GTA, COD, AC, MGS, Fifa etc, all good. Brilliant in fact. Broken annualised sequels are to be celebrated and I'm sure AC Unity, Fifa 14, COD Modern Warfare will be remembered as utter classics in the next ten years. Original, quality masterpieces with story-telling that will stand the test of time.
Eddage Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 People care about the story in Assassin's Creed? That's news to me. I thought the running joke was that they just care about the gameplay. Why would Nintendo put more focus into story in their games? What games of theirs need more story-telling? Ok, we're just going in circles now. So basically, Nintendo = shit (obv) for always releasing the same game over and over, once every six years. GTA, COD, AC, MGS, Fifa etc, all good. Brilliant in fact. Broken annualised sequels are to be celebrated and I'm sure AC Unity, Fifa 14, COD Modern Warfare will be remembered as utter classics in the next ten years. Original, quality masterpieces with story-telling that will stand the test of time. I never once said Nintendo were shit, I praised their games despite pointing out shortcomings and I never once said all the other games were brilliant. This is why it's impossible to have a discussion with you - you make up bullshit and twist arguments to match whatever ridiculous point you're trying to make.
Agent Gibbs Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 People care about the story in Assassin's Creed? That's news to me. I thought the running joke was that they just care about the gameplay. I liked the story up to a point in Assassin's Creed 3 and i loved it in 4 On the subject of Virtual Console, I want Super Mario Sunshine!
markderoos Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) Isn't it just a matter of taste? Some people like story over gameplay and other people the other way round. Some people like sportsgames, some like platformers, other like shooters or puzzlegames. Some like short burst games, others love long lasting RPG's. I don't get the constant fights on here when in my eyes it has to do with preferences. Current platform and software sales tell me both PS4 and (to a lesser extent) XBox One cater to a larger audience. That should in no way be a reason to try and convince people with a different preference in gaming that their taste is worth less then your own. I think that counts for both parties in this far too long lasting discussion by the way. Just accept en respect that people have different tastes and don't try to convince them that your opinion is a fact. Edited April 30, 2015 by markderoos
Ronnie Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Sheikah said Nintendo release identical sequels all the time. I suggested the big AAA games are far worse offenders. That's all I was saying.
markderoos Posted May 1, 2015 Posted May 1, 2015 He finds Nintendo's franchises repetitive, you find AC and the lot more repetitive. It's still both a matter of opinion. I don't think you should try and pursuade one another that your opinion is worth more. In the end everybody should buy and play games they like, no matter what anybody else thinks of that. It's not a popularity race, is it?
dazzybee Posted May 1, 2015 Posted May 1, 2015 'Quality' is also not the only determinant of what keeps games exciting and engaging. That's what my point has always been, nothin' more. I'm honestly not having a go here. I'm just explaining why I don't feel the same about most of their games these days, and why I think they're not striking it off as well with others. I agree with this, there are certain things you can appreciate the craft of , or know they're very good, but they just don't engage you, I think that a lot about films, music and games too. I guess at times it just feels like you use the lack of success as a way of batting back the quality argument when they're disconnected.
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