Ville Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Very good points, people. Like @pratty said, Nintendo's princesses are saying more about princesses than women...i.e. they're royalty, not professional fighters. Pretty much the same in Mario games too, the king and royal guards (Toads) are always pretty darn useless, leaving all the work for Mario and Luigi... @Jonnas Yeah, I agree, Sheik and Tetra are kind of wasted potential, since they could obviously handle themselves. I think Nintendo are quite lost themselves with these double identities, trying to give Zelda something to do yet always reverting her back to the princess role in the end. Kind of the same as in SS: Zelda does go on her own journey in the game, but we don't really see anything of that. Would've been cool to play as her and see how she handles the same situations where Link uses mainly force. Yes, Zelda is not as strong a fighter in the series as Link, but it doesn't mean she couldn't help in her own way... Actually, this is what we have already seen in the latest Zelda games. In ST, Zelda does remain active throughout the game, and in SS she goes on to help Link in her own way, i.e. remaining active in the background. Still, the problem with the Zelda franchise as a whole is that Zelda herself is valuable, and thus will always get targeted by the villain. She either holds one part of the triforce or acts as a key to unlocking it, so what can you expect. I mean it's called Legend of ZELDA for a reason...Just compare to Link, whose value in the beginning is pretty much 0 (peasant, kokiri kid), until he starts training and showing he can fight the evil forces... About Starfox Adventures...man, this game had some potential, but the Starfox-franchise glued on top of it ended up costing it. It's a cool-looking game with incredibly monotoneous combat, but still fun until the end moments of the game, where the original plots are just brushed aside and Starfox villains get inserted in the game in a way that is just moronic and downright insulting towards the player. So yes, I think it was just Nintendo wanting to plaster on the SF franchise. And since none of the SF-4 are female, it's pretty obvious that the protagonist was going to be a male (well Fox, since he's the hero in the series anyway). I don't know what kind of plot and game structure the original Dinosaur planet had, but it probably didn't include two main characters. Thus Krystal got brushed aside with nowhere to go...
Cube Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 To be honest I really can't remember Ocarina all that well, I can't really remember how she acted after capture She was stuck in a crystal. She was essentially "frozen in ice". So there was nothing she could do.
Agent Gibbs Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 She was stuck in a crystal. She was essentially "frozen in ice". So there was nothing she could do. And when freed and the castle was collapsing, she followed like like a cowering little girl, this former sheika ninja type who allegedly led the resistance to gannon, its so disgustingly out of character its untrue
Cube Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 And when freed and the castle was collapsing, she followed like like a cowering little girl, this former sheika ninja type who allegedly led the resistance to gannon, its so disgustingly out of character its untrue Nintendo women can't do anything when you can identify them as female.
Jonnas Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 But hey I could be wrong, I've enjoyed the debate, it's cool if we differ and can agree to disagree. I agree to this, and I appreciate this debate of ours But there are still a couple of things I think we're arguing differently. To be honest I really can't remember Ocarina all that well, I can't really remember how she acted after capture, however could it be that you're overestimating the capabilities of Zelda? She was a Sheikah, or at least pretended to be, and the gossip stones do refer to her as a tomboy, but prior to her capture does the game actually depict her has handling actual danger the way you expect her to? After all she is fearful of Ganondorf, if she was so supposedly bad ass why not just take him on? The game does say that she is more than her "elegant image" but I'm not convinced her character does a complete 180 degree shift when she is captured. She's no delicate flower but equally no fearless warrior, and being captured by Ganondorf and made to feel helpless will certainly knock the confidence out of someone. My only issue is definitely the way she escapes the castle and still acts like a princess who's never stepped outside of her castle. If she really was this, I'd have no issue (just like I have no issue with Ashley from Resi 4), but this is not the character we've seen so far. I'm talking about Sheik of course, child Zelda was just that, and the one I'd expect would act like Peach. Afterwards, her character grew as Sheik, we knew she lived like a fugitive for years. We see her pull off a few physical stunts. But after we rescue her, it's like she regressed to her child self. Even if Zelda is made to fit the damsel role against an established un-damsel character, is it really sexist? It's easy to hypothetically say the games wouldn't depict a male character the same way as Zelda, but why would they, if the game has a male protagonist, typically played by a male player? Donkey Kong Country 2 did just that, actually. A male character previously shown as capable acts as the damsel. And it's silly, just an excuse to not have DK as the main character. Even Cranky makes fun of it. Other games also have male leads out to rescue a brother or a friend, but those aren't going against any previous characterization. Is that sexist? I'm not sure it is. Just because a game has an active male hero and a passive female damsel, it isn't making the sexist statement that woman cannot be heroes. It's simply saying on this occasion the hero is male, and the absence of an active female companion/damsel isn't sexist either. If the woman is passive from the beginning, I don't think it's sexist, either. Said woman could be a man and not a thing changes. And it would actually be far more simple for the Nintendo to just depict Zelda as weak and frail from start to finish, so I think it's actually to Nintendo's credit that they don't. As you said it's not sexist that women can't win the race, it's that sexist that they're not given the opportunity to run. Now I would say that not showing a woman running isn't the same as saying women cannot run, however, to me Nintendo do show Zelda (and Krystal) as a fairly active and capable character ("running the race" so to speak) prior to the events of the game where they are captured, it is at this point where the male protagonist takes over from her. I think I should make myself clearer: when I said that the woman wasn't trying to win, what I meant was that she was given the opportunity, but willingly quits. In OoT, the analogy goes that Zelda is given the opportunity to compete, and give Link or Ganondorf a decent run for their money. But she decided to sit down for the last lap, instead of trying to finish it. In WW, she stops to rest, then has a last go for it. In TP she's the referee and in ST she's in charge of Link's water bottles. This analogy is getting weird, I admit. Zelda may well unintentionally appear to reinforce a general pre-existing notion that women are ultimately incapable of looking after themselves without the help of men, but what are we do? Never have woman rescued by man ever again, for fear of reinforcing a stereotype? Better to counter that notion in other games, which Nintendo do with Metroid. The best option is to let action girls be action girls and damsels be damsels. It's really just that. It's true no damsel was needed, but as I explained it's a device used for motivation, so adding a damsel increases motivation, it's lazy and overdone but it seems to work. I do think there's a greater case with Starfox Adventures to be made about the objectification of the damsel and the female as prize, because they make it clear that Fox fancies her. It's a very simple and un-subtle motivation, but I do wonder how harmful and sexist it really is. Would they hypothetically depict a male character like Krystal against a female protagonist? Perhaps not, but then again maybe men and woman are motivated by different things. I don't believe that the decision to replace Krystal with Fox itself was a sexist one. I think they just saw an opportunity to use an established IP, and then subsequently built the game around the male protagonist of Fox instead. They might well have also concluded that a male protagonist would be better suited for the market, but I think if Fox was woman they might well have still replaced Krystal. Valid points all around.
pratty Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 It probably goes without saying at this point, but just incase people haven't played Ocarina yet - SPOILERS AHEAD! I just rewatched the scene where Sheik reveals herself as Zelda and is captured, and the escape from the tower on youtube, and it just goes to show how much perception plays in this kind of debate. The strong implication made in the reveal scene is that the only reason Ganondorf hasn't captured Zelda for the last 7 years is because she has been hiding as Sheik. Pretty much as soon as she reveals herself to be Zelda, Ganondorf takes her by surprise and doesn't give her a chance. Is it sexist that the writers didn't give her a chance against Ganondorf? I don't think so. I don't beleive they're obligated to show Zelda taken in a struggle, it was only her disguise as Sheik, not her "Sheikah skills", that prevented Ganondorf from capturing her earlier, the writers never depicted her as a match for Ganondorf, nor were they ever obligated to. Absolutely they could have depicted her has being able to give Ganondorf a run for his money but I think the idea is to make Ganondorf look strong, to show the player they're up against someone really powerful and fearsome. It's a bit of an ego rub to tell they player you're the only person that can stop him. Equally even if Zelda is suppposed to be this feisty character at heart, being taken by surprise creates a good excuse to still have her captured so the damsel in distress device can be put into effect. I would also say that, in my opinion, Zelda does play an active role, in her princess guise, at the end of the game. It is Zelda that instructs Link to follow her, she leads the way down and opens the doors for Link, which presumebly he can't. She doesn't fight the Stalfos or whatever they're called. Could she have? Assuming that Zelda/Sheik knew how to fight perhaps she could have, however she didn't have a weapon unlike Link, and it would have made no sense for the writers to have conveniently given her one when she has been captured. Could Link have given her a weapon, maybe but could the game engine have shown them fighting side by side? Even if it could maybe maybe it would have taken a lot of programming effort, far simpler to have Zelda protect herself with her shield and let Link handle it, the game is about the player saving the day after all. I think we have to remember we're talking about a game and that comes with some limitations and other things to consider, unlike a simple piece of fiction. Perhaps that's why Zelda doesn't use her magic or what ever she has to fight the stalfos, if she just destroys them with her magic then what does that leave for the player to do? Then during the second fight Ganon she plays an active role, locating the sword for Link and trapping Ganon with her magic, allowing Link to stike him with the sword, before she and the other ages trap Ganon in some portal or whatever. I really didn't see the frailty that some of you guys were talking about. As for the gasping, again it's perception, where they gasps of surprise, or gasps of fear? Ganon returning at the end was surprising, and so what if they were gasps of fear? She should fear Ganondorf, she's been hiding from him for 7 years. Honestly guys I don't think the depiction of Princess Zelda was that bad at all, far from disgusting. Even if we say she didn't use her magic earlier to fight, or didn't do her ninja acrobatics on the way down the tower, wouldn't we just be talking about plot holes rather than sexism? I do take on board what Cube said about when you can identfiy Zelda as female (although there are useful obviously female Nintendo characters), but that only holds water when the characteristics and capabilities of Zelda are different when she is Sheik and when she is Princess Zelda, and I'm not conviced they are. Obviously her mannerisms are different as Sheik but they're probably part of her disguise. As for her being less active in other games. Well they're mostly different Zeldas, and just because a game does not have an active female character, it isn't necessarily making a declaritive statement that females can't be active characters.
Jonnas Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) I definitely think there's not much else to argue right now without repeating points ad nauseum. It's been a good debate, though. I really didn't see the frailty that some of you guys were talking about. As for the gasping, again it's perception, where they gasps of surprise, or gasps of fear? Ganon returning at the end was surprising, and so what if they were gasps of fear? She should fear Ganondorf, she's been hiding from him for 7 years. She gasps every time an enemy or a falling piece of debris is near her. Edited March 20, 2013 by Jonnas
Agent Gibbs Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Another perspective on the video part 1 and one from a backer of hers
Happenstance Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Women in the video games industry related: You have to wonder how Machinima thought this would go down considering everything thats gone on lately. Including the complaints from GDC parties just last week. I am surprised though just how many people in the Youtube comments are also against it considering that is usually pretty much the worst place on the Internet.
heroicjanitor Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Women in the video games industry related: You have to wonder how Machinima thought this would go down considering everything thats gone on lately. Including the complaints from GDC parties just last week. I am surprised though just how many people in the Youtube comments are also against it considering that is usually pretty much the worst place on the Internet. What the actual fuck, I spent the first two minutes thinking this video was satirical but it never got to the point where they laughed at it. I thought the commentator was going for South Park style.
Cube Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Episode 1 was "playing Mario Kart with a wedgie". How the hell does that YouTube show exist?
MoogleViper Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Women in the video games industry related: You have to wonder how Machinima thought this would go down considering everything thats gone on lately. Including the complaints from GDC parties just last week. I am surprised though just how many people in the Youtube comments are also against it considering that is usually pretty much the worst place on the Internet. Apparently that video is set to private. What did I miss?
Cube Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Apparently that video is set to private. What did I miss? You can never delete from the internet:
MoogleViper Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 You can never delete from the internet: "The internet ..." This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by machinima.
Debug Mode Posted April 7, 2013 Author Posted April 7, 2013 Machinima should really just give up, people will just keep uploading it, no matter how stupid it is
Rummy Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 Does anybody know what's happening with this, like what the release schedule is and stuff? I had assumed it'd be more regular, but as far as I can see there haven't been any newer videos to the series yet?
Cube Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 Considering how long the first one took....two episodes a year?
Agent Gibbs Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 I was also wondering where the next one of these was, what could possibly be taking so long? didn't she promise to have completed them all and have DVD's out by now?
MoogleViper Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 You guys need to be a little easier on her. It's not as if she can afford to do this full tim- -oh...
Magnus Posted May 28, 2013 Posted May 28, 2013 I can just imagine you twirling your mustache and laughing maniacally as you posted that.
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