New Sonic (Rumour)

[nekunando]

I didn't find myself liking Sonic Generations much either, @Retro_Link, but then I haven't been particularly impressed with a Sonic game since the Mega Drive days I kinda enjoyed Sonic 4 on WiiWare but I just can't get excited for any Sonic game these days..

[Josh64]

And personally, I really enjoyed Heroes and it reviewed well enough too (the GC version anyway) - it seems to generate retrospective hate for some reason I've never been able to identify.

 

I loved it back in the day, have you been back to it recently though?

 

I played through it again last year and my gosh, it's just so glitchy, the jumping often messes up, I found myself just falling through things a lot of the time and the camera was something else entirely.

 

I still love it for what it is though, and nothing will beat the theme

[Retro_Link]

Worst 'music' ever...

 

	Audio

 

I didn't find myself liking Sonic Generations much either, @Retro_Link, but then I haven't been particularly impressed with a Sonic game since the Mega Drive days I kinda enjoyed Sonic 4 on WiiWare but I just can't get excited for any Sonic game these days..

Yeah I've never really been a fan of 2D Sonic, I loved the 2 Adventure games though, so I'm willing to give 3D Sonic a chance; but I'm still a bit hit and miss on the series it seems.

[Captain Falcon]

I loved it back in the day, have you been back to it recently though?

 

I played through it again last year and my gosh, it's just so glitchy, the jumping often messes up, I found myself just falling through things a lot of the time and the camera was something else entirely.

 

I still love it for what it is though, and nothing will beat the theme

 

Not super recently, probably about 12 months ago after I played through Generations and did a bit of dipping into past titles. I don't seem to recall that many issues with it that weren't already there the first time around. Trying to hit certain things with Sonic's Tornado Spin was always a bit suspect in parts when it was life or death and they could be a bit tighter to control but I knew those issues existed back in the day too.

 

 

Plus, how could people not be impressed with the Casino stages. When I heard of Adventure and it's Casinopolis, I imaged this vast connected network of 3D tables and platforming challenges, like Casino Night from Sonic 2 but in 3D, yet it was nothing of the sort. Sonic Heroes comes along and bam, sometimes iffy table physics aside, it does a great way of showing it how it should have been.

 

 

And Retro, you don't have to use the skills if you don't want to - if it feels like too much hard work, just ignore them until the end and you unlock the really special skills that you might actually want to play with that you will be glad are optional. I beat the game without using any of them easily enough.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Captain Falcon

[Jamba]

 

And personally, I really enjoyed Heroes and it reviewed well enough too (the GC version anyway) - it seems to generate retrospective hate for some reason I've never been able to identify.

 

Sonic has a serious issue constantly when it comes to gameplay balance. It's called unfair death syndrome and it was rife in Heroes. I've never played a Sonic game that I have refused to ever play again apart from Heroes and I hated after about 15 mins of playing it. Sloppy camera work, completely broken gameplay and just generally awful and cringe-worthy.

 

I'm worried about this game, the fact that Unleashed has been linked to it does not bode well despite Colours and Generations being mentioned. Frankly the whole thing sounds like SEGA still not having a clue where to take this series. Everywhere from his duplicitous character writing to ridiculous inclusions of silly irrelevant gameplay.

 

You know what everyone remembers from Unleashed? That the Werehog sections were complete crap on every level. Stop it with accessorising the experience and make a substantial and entertaining game.

 

Adventure 1 is great with some important downfalls but the majority of the actual game bits of the game were excellent because they were distilled and focused.

 

Can't believe they are still pulling this crap....

[Josh64]

Not super recently, probably about 12 months ago after I played through Generations and did a bit of dipping into past titles. I don't seem to recall that many issues with it that weren't already there the first time around. Trying to hit certain things with Sonic's Tornado Spin was always a bit suspect in parts when it was life or death and they could be a bit tighter to control but I knew those issues existed back in the day too.

 

 

Plus, how could people not be impressed with the Casino stages. When I heard of Adventure and it's Casinopolis, I imaged this vast connected network of 3D tables and platforming challenges, like Casino Night from Sonic 2 but in 3D, yet it was nothing of the sort. Sonic Heroes comes along and bam, sometimes iffy table physics aside, it does a great way of showing it how it should have been.

 

Yeah, it's those issues that stuck out to me, I don't know why but I didn't really notice them the first time I played it but perhaps I was just too impressed to be playing Sonic (it was the first Sonic title I owned)

 

I love the music in the casino levels! I remember them being pretty tricky but yeah, they're great. Like I said, I love most of the game, I just wish it was a bit more solid!

 

[Retro_Link]

I still love it for what it is though, and nothing will beat the theme

Yeah this was/is incredible...

 

 

 

What I always wanted from a Sonic was a game staring Sonic, Tails and Knuckles that you could use to play the same levels (not all at once like in Heroes) and different routes would be open for each character i.e. Knuckles could glid over gaps/climb/punch through walls that Sonic would have to go around and under etc... and tails could fly over sections etc...

 

It actually sounds like we may be getting something like that (finally for me!)... except there seems to be 7 other characters along for the ride unfortunately! Why it can't just be one character per 'type' I don't know. Every time Sega... so close, but then you go and throw something else in there.

[Captain Falcon]

I'm worried about this game, the fact that Unleashed has been linked to it does not bode well despite Colours and Generations being mentioned. Frankly the whole thing sounds like SEGA still not having a clue where to take this series. Everywhere from his duplicitous character writing to ridiculous inclusions of silly irrelevant gameplay.

 

You know what everyone remembers from Unleashed? That the Werehog sections were complete crap on every level. Stop it with accessorising the experience and make a substantial and entertaining game.

 

Adventure 1 is great with some important downfalls but the majority of the actual game bits of the game were excellent because they were distilled and focused.

 

Can't believe they are still pulling this crap....

 

 

But the day time levels of Unleashed are good, HD version anyway... they just needed to slow his accelaration a touch and put the homing attack back on the Jump button where it belonged. But once you got used to that, those levels were pure exhilaration and absolutely fundamental to the success of Colors and Generations in terms of identifying their core gameplay - how Sonic runs and jumps through levels and how those levels are made up.

 

If people remember the Werehog, that's really unfortunate and unfair. And whilst I suspect I'm coming across as a fanboy here, I don't think the werehog was the abomination some people claim. Was it completely unnecessary? Of course it was. Was it bad? Not really. It was just a bit dull and out of place but certainly not on the same level as Big the Cat's fishing levels. It could have been so much worse than it was.

 

Again, it depends which version you played as it was more "enjoyable" on the HD machines that saw less time spent in that form and actually gave you many more moves and combos to try. The very last level had you swapping between Sonic and the Werehog during the actual level to create a really interesting and challenging finale.

 

Colors and Generations were fairly substantial for 3D platformers that has you covering so much ground and there is no reason for this not to be. I don't see them as puling any crap just yet and the past two games suggest they have no intention of it either because they finally learned after the last time they did try it with Unleashed.

[Magnus]

It could have been so much worse than it was.

Now there's a quote they should put on the cover! :p

[Wii]

The following info supposedly comes from an inside source...

 

- SEGA to reveal a new Sonic the Hedgehog game next month

- won’t be announced until mid-February

- due out on Wii U, PS3, 360, 3DS, PS Vita, PC, and “Next gen” consoles

- console, PC and PS Vita versions will be identical aside from the graphical differences

- 3DS version will be another Sonic Rush styled game

- console version of this new game will be sticking with the recent formula

- gameplay switches between full 3D movement and 2D side-scrolling sections

- multiple routes through a stage

- incentive to play through all routes

- each route in a stage will lead to one of two or three exits

- the end of each will take you to a different stage

- you will always end up at the same final stage, though

- working to make at least 20 different stages, not including boss battles.

- begin the game with Sonic and unlock other characters to play as by completing stages

- example: you might unlock Knuckles in any one of three stages. Sometimes, if you already have a character that would be unlocked first, a different one may be unlocked.

- roughly 10 different characters to play with

- no new characters

- each character will have their own skills

- example: Sonic and Shadow not being able to make it up a wall, while Tails can easily fly up there or Knuckles can climb

- stages can be replayed with any character of your choice

- 3DS info: “similar in idea, but smaller in scope”

- devs are trying to fit all of the characters into the 3DS game, but it will feature far fewer stages

- 3DS still features many paths through stages

- 3DS will only ever branch off into 2 stages

- been in the works since before Sonic Generations

- due out this Fall/Autumn, or at the latest, Winter

 

Just to flesh out that rumour. It's from the same source but it's expanded a little bit.

 

http://www.sonicstadium.org/2013/01/rumour-sega-to-announce-new-sonic-game-next-month/

[Jamba]

 

If people remember the Werehog, that's really unfortunate and unfair. And whilst I suspect I'm coming across as a fanboy here, I don't think the werehog was the abomination some people claim. Was it completely unnecessary? Of course it was. Was it bad? Not really. It was just a bit dull and out of place but certainly not on the same level as Big the Cat's fishing levels. It could have been so much worse than it was.

 

When the big feature of your game needs to be completely overlooked, despite it being half of the game, to get to the good bit then you have a serious priority problem.

 

Big the Cat levels were a silly (in a good way for me) departure that you could play at almost any point in the game. You can't avoid the Werebollox.

 

Don't get me wrong about Generations and Colours. Not played them myself but meant to be great games and Sonic being back on form.

[Josh64]

Yeah, I didn't play much of Unleashed simply because of the Werehog sections. They weren't particularly bad, they just didn't fit into a Sonic game at all and totally killed the pacing of the game. The day stages were awesome though!

 

And I was on the fence about the book but after Captain Falcon introduced me to the special edition I just couldn't resist!

 

 

I was also really feeling in the mood after seeing a video of Bentley Jones sing Dreams of an absolution live. That song is just amazing, so it's kind of a shame it was for Sonic 2006 :p Silver is still a beast though, they need to include him in a decent game, I actually liked his sections (for the most part) in '06

 

EDIT: I can't sleep and god damn, this music! Back to Generations I go

 

Edited January 31, 2013 by Josh64

[Zechs Merquise]

I can't understand why anyone would have high hopes for a new 3D Sonic game. At best they have been 'good', but never spectacular. I'd say the best in recent times has been Colours - but even that wasn't up to AAA standard!

 

I think Sonic's only chance of redemption is to approach it in a fresh way. When Mario moved from 2D to 3D the game play changed, Nintendo didn't simply try to replicate the 2D game play in a 3D world.

 

The problem with Sonic is that developers have always tried to simply put what worked in 2D on the Megadrive into 3D - and it's not working.

 

As broader commentary I think Sonic is an apt mascot for SEGA as his decline is mirrored in virtually everything they do. I simply don't feel they have kept up with the pace of game development and haven't adapted well to the changing marketplace - classics like Sonic, Nights, SEGA Rally etc all had their best outings generations ago.

 

Unlike Nintendo who seem to be able to constantly revamp their key properties - Metroid, Mario, Zelda - and keep them fresh, SEGA's key properties just seem to get more stale and redundant over time. Sadly even when SEGA return their franchises to their roots - Sonic 4 for example - they are still poor.

 

With Nintendo releasing NSMB, when SEGA didn't do a disc based 'NEW' Sonic game in the classic vein is beyond me. It's not just their development skills that have fallen from grace but also their business skills. I'd bet my house on it that a 'NEW' Sonic game done like NSMB on a disk bringing back classic Sonic game play in 2D but with beautiful new graphics would have done more for the franchise than any of their poor to middling attempts at a 3D Sonic.

[Cube]

I can't understand why anyone would have high hopes for a new 3D Sonic game. At best they have been 'good', but never spectacular. I'd say the best in recent times has been Colours - but even that wasn't up to AAA standard!

 

I'd take Colours and Generations over Mario Galaxy any day.

[Zechs Merquise]

I'd take Colours and Generations over Mario Galaxy any day.

 

That may well be your preference. But commercial and critical performance of the two games in question are world's apart. At one time the two franchises competed as the two premier gaming franchises. Whilst a new 3D Mario is still met with huge anticipation, the opposite is true of a 3D Sonic - because those games are middling to decent at best.

 

You're always going to find the odd person who prefers what is clearly an inferior item of a superior one. But claiming any of the 3D Sonic games are anywhere near as good as the 3D Mario games is like claiming that the Phantom Menace is a better film than Goodfellas - to claim so would make you a laughing stock.

[Cube]

Neither 3D Sonic or post-N64 Mario comes close to matching Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie, but I'd argue that Generations and Galaxy are fairly similar in quality.

[Zechs Merquise]

Neither 3D Sonic or post-N64 Mario comes close to matching Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie, but I'd argue that Generations and Galaxy are fairly similar in quality.

 

I think that argument would be laughed at if I'm being brutally honest. We're talking about comparing the most critically acclaimed game of all time which has an average critic score of 97.64% to a game with a critical average of less than 79% - which is decent but hardly head turning. What's more Galaxy has performed admirably selling over 10 million units whereas Generations has not broken a million units on any platform as of yet.

 

Whilst any single critical score can on its own be meaningless, a critical average of over 97% from 78 critics is impressive to say the least. Whatever you preference is, it is clear that Mario Galaxy was a revolutionary game that pushed the boundaries of what gamers expected and took the whole genre to new heights. The same certainly can't be said for Sonic Generations.

 

Whilst some people may well be getting a hard-on at the thought of a new 3D Sonic, it's most likely more down to a mixture of wishful thinking and nostalgia than any proven track record of recent games being the AAA titles they once were.

[Cube]

Whilst some people may well be getting a hard-on at the thought of a new 3D Sonic, it's most likely more down to a mixture of wishful thinking and nostalgia than any proven track record of recent games being the AAA titles they once were.

 

It's much more likely that the people getting excited for this are the people who enjoyed the recent Sonic games.

[Shorty]

Generations was an enjoyable fare but marred with some strange decisions and featuring some of the series worst levels, for some reason. To put it in the same league as Galaxy is... an absolute joke.

 

The series is due a redesign/reboot akin to the first appearance of Sonic in SA1, and needs to be written by someone with half a brain, and the level design needs re-imagining from scratch. How many Sonic games will you play with 10m wide paths with boosts and homing attack jumps? Splitting the 3D with psuedo-2D sections as in Colours, as well as releasing STH4 and Generations, was nice but essentially admits they weren't able to come up with a good way to suitable translate the mechanics into 3D that actually surpassed the 2D games.

 

Basically, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is still the best Sonic game ever and that's a shame.

[Kagato]

I also love me my sonic games and have to be a sonic fanboy!!!

 

Sonic Adventure 3 please. Thanks!

 

Sorry dude, Sonic Unleashed was called Sonic Adventure 3 in Japan so its unlikely you will see a third entry in the west. I dare say we will see a new 3d Sonic at some point but the "adventure" name has likely been shelved.

 

edit - gah! ignore the above, looks like they relabled it world adventure prior to release

[Retro_Link]

I can barely bring myself to play Sonic Generations because of the awkwardness of that game (in fact I've stopped in favour of The Unfinished Swan and now Heavy Rain).

 

Mario Galaxy I couldn't put down. :p

[Jonnas]

I think Sonic's only chance of redemption is to approach it in a fresh way. When Mario moved from 2D to 3D the game play changed, Nintendo didn't simply try to replicate the 2D game play in a 3D world.

 

The problem with Sonic is that developers have always tried to simply put what worked in 2D on the Megadrive into 3D - and it's not working.

 

Funny, this is very far from the truth. Sonic Adventure has very little to do with the Mega Drive games, gameplay-wise. The original games were about momentum, and controlling the speed that came from it. Sonic Adventure is about mach speed sections where you barely control Sonic's speed, clunky overworlds, with sudden genre shifts whenever you changed characters (unlike the 2D games. When you controlled a different character, gameplay would stay essentially the same)

 

Sonic's decline in quality came from the developers forgetting what worked in 2D, not the opposite.

 

(Even more funny, Super Mario Galaxy is actually the one that plays like a 2D Mario replicated in a 3D world.)

 

Unlike Nintendo who seem to be able to constantly revamp their key properties - Metroid, Mario, Zelda - and keep them fresh, SEGA's key properties just seem to get more stale and redundant over time. Sadly even when SEGA return their franchises to their roots - Sonic 4 for example - they are still poor.

 

1. Sonic 4 didn't really return to its roots (not Episode 1, at least). It was a superficial return at best, and played more like the Sonic Rush series (which is essentially high-speed gameplay in 2D. No momentum or precise speed control)

 

2. Sonic was never criticised for being stale. Entries were criticised for being poor, badly done, gimmicky, pointless and/or unfinished (among others) but staleness was never among the complaints. Which aspects do you feel were stale, exactly?

 

3. Sega's other series are definitely stale. Most of them haven't had new entries in years, no wonder they're stale

 

With Nintendo releasing NSMB, when SEGA didn't do a disc based 'NEW' Sonic game in the classic vein is beyond me. It's not just their development skills that have fallen from grace but also their business skills. I'd bet my house on it that a 'NEW' Sonic game done like NSMB on a disk bringing back classic Sonic game play in 2D but with beautiful new graphics would have done more for the franchise than any of their poor to middling attempts at a 3D Sonic.

 

I am glad they didn't do it. Sonic 4 got enough backlash as it was, imagine if it was a full retail game. Episode 2 actually managed to be closer to the MD games thanks to the feedback.

 

On the other hand, Sonic Unleashed finally introduced a well-received gameplay engine, perfected by Sonic Colours. That's more progress and evolution than whatever Sonic 4 or NSMB attempted.

 

That may well be your preference. But commercial and critical performance of the two games in question are world's apart. At one time the two franchises competed as the two premier gaming franchises. Whilst a new 3D Mario is still met with huge anticipation, the opposite is true of a 3D Sonic - because those games are middling to decent at best.

 

You're always going to find the odd person who prefers what is clearly an inferior item of a superior one. But claiming any of the 3D Sonic games are anywhere near as good as the 3D Mario games is like claiming that the Phantom Menace is a better film than Goodfellas - to claim so would make you a laughing stock.

 

Really? You're going to try and discredit his opinion? That's your first reaction?

 

Out of curiosity, have you even played Colours or Generations?

[Cube]

Mario Galaxy I couldn't put down. :p

 

I suppose I should probably finish Mario Galaxy before I say it isn't as good. Some of the stars may be more like SM64.

[Josh64]

The problem with Sonic is that developers have always tried to simply put what worked in 2D on the Megadrive into 3D - and it's not working.

 

As broader commentary I think Sonic is an apt mascot for SEGA as his decline is mirrored in virtually everything they do. I simply don't feel they have kept up with the pace of game development and haven't adapted well to the changing marketplace - classics like Sonic, Nights, SEGA Rally etc all had their best outings generations ago.

 

Unlike Nintendo who seem to be able to constantly revamp their key properties - Metroid, Mario, Zelda - and keep them fresh, SEGA's key properties just seem to get more stale and redundant over time. Sadly even when SEGA return their franchises to their roots - Sonic 4 for example - they are still poor.

 

With Nintendo releasing NSMB, when SEGA didn't do a disc based 'NEW' Sonic game in the classic vein is beyond me. It's not just their development skills that have fallen from grace but also their business skills. I'd bet my house on it that a 'NEW' Sonic game done like NSMB on a disk bringing back classic Sonic game play in 2D but with beautiful new graphics would have done more for the franchise than any of their poor to middling attempts at a 3D Sonic.

 

Sonic games have only started to work since they have been taking what's good from the 2D games and putting them in a 3D world. Can you remember the hub worlds in Adventure? They were horrific.

 

Colours and Generations were fantastic, and I didn't play 2D Sonic games back in the day, I downloaded them on VC a few years ago, so I'm not blinded by nostalgia to see that the recent 3D games are better than the MegaDrive ones (though I'll accept that that's more opinion than fact :P)

 

And as has been stated, Sonic becoming stale was never a problem, it was possibly SEGA's intense desire to make sure they weren't stale that killed them - terrible gimmicks (along with crappy cameras and shoddy engines.)

 

I don't want to start a war here but Zelda has arguably been stale since Wind Waker. Not bad, but certainly the same old.

 

And I agree that a 2D Sonic in the same way as NSMB would have sold well but if it was anything like NSMB then it would have no doubt been an incredibly dull experience. The two Galaxy games and 3D Land are fantastic (and yes, better than recent sonic games :P) but the NSMB series is dire.

[Captain Falcon]

I think people seem to under some illusion that Sonic games used to sell by the metric shit ton when talking about recent sales figures.

 

After starting seperately, Sonic 1 was packed in with the MD and only as a result did it hit 15m. Sonic 2 went on to do 6m as a standalone Sonic game and represents the best seller of the lot by some margin. He's never come close to the sales success of Mario and using misinterpretations of past success to judge current performance is a terrible yarkstick.

 

Sonic 4 Episode 1 was like NSMB - it featured old school, basic, level designs with crap controls which is NSMB all over. Sonic 4 sold about as well as NSMB deserved to do but ultimately, the Mario brand is much stronger. Episode 2 got the Sonic physics spot on (or near as damn it) but an iffy team mechanic and a third of the game spent underwater soured the experience. Episode 1's levels with 2's physics would have been a pretty good throw back.

 

 

Mario 64 changed the way Mario played from his 2D games but the next 4 3D games have seen him try to get closer and closer to the 2D way of his games. I've always admired the fact that ST wanted to recreate the 2D experience in 3D as best as they could and stuck to their guns. Certain sacrifices have been made along the way and it's a shame they've felt pressurised to add more characters as a means of extending play time. Yes we'd all like the games to be longer and Sonic only but that would put so much stress on the dev team that they'd never have been making their money back with sales. It's only now, at the end of the Wii and the HD machines life that we're getting the right balance of Sonic gameplay in his own games... and people still moan they are too short. Level for level, a Mario game doesn't come close to using the same number of assets as a Sonic game does.

 

And he certainly doesn't need another reboot, that's for sure. They rebooted him with Adventure 1, then tried again with Sonic 06. Unleashed marked a reboot of the core gameplay and Colours marked a significant change in terms of story telling. As Josh says, he seen too many changes already and now they are more settled than ever concerning his gameplay, people are calling for more changes.

 

I'm not entirely sure what people want/expect from a 3D possible is even possible or even if they really know themselves but it always annoys me when people keep riding past games for not meeting criteria that still remains fairly undefined.