The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Wii U / Switch

[drahkon]

13 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I'm wondering if they could use the BotW engine to create a more traditional style Zelda game.

They should use the engine to create a Pokémon game.

[Pestneb]

I agree to an extent on the progression, I think that was very organic, not just the powering up of link but also picking up tricks, ways of doing things etc.
Personally I found several areas naturally kept me out by just being really tough to get through... I probably COULD have done it from the start, but it would have been so much work... so there were paths of least resistance.. because tough enemies couldn't be everywhere and because they moved those paths were themselves organic. You had your own adventure. I really appreciated that element of the game.

I don't think the balance was poor, but I think that depends on how the game was approached. I think the linear narrative driven half is the part that could have been strengthened, but the whole point of this game was more the sandbox elements. But yes, if there had been perhaps a bit more information.. I mean seeing a lot of bits, I just wanted to know what they were, why they were there. In the desert for example, those (7/12??) statues.. they felt more like they deserved a dungeon to me, or some sort of focus, a story around them. Like the Yiga clan or whatever they were called... that sidequest I think was good, even the 8th/13th statue quest, although a bit more backstory again would have been appreciated by me. Having said that, perhaps dlc will fill the gap...

 

[Ronnie]

I'm surprised to see so little credit being given on here to how Nintendo reinvented the openworld game, not sure why people seem to fixate on the negatives instead of celebrating the genre shifting positives. So there aren't lots of cut scenes, it's not that kind of game and shouldn't be played as one.

[drahkon]

52 minutes ago, Pestneb said:

I don't think the balance was poor, but I think that depends on how the game was approached. I think the linear narrative driven half is the part that could have been strengthened, but the whole point of this game was more the sandbox elements.

 

Yeah, Nintendo didn't strike a good balance between freedom in gameplay and linear narrative. It would've been easy to achieve, in my opinion.

Quests that progress the plot or give a much deeper understanding of Hyrule's history, characters, etc. These could've been optional, as well, so they don't interfere with the exploration aspect.

[Pestneb]

Just now, drahkon said:

Yeah, Nintendo didn't strike a good balance between freedom in gameplay and linear narrative. It would've been easy to achieve, in my opinion.

Quests that progress the plot or give a much deeper understanding of Hyrule's history, characters, etc. These could've been optional, as well, so they don't interfere with the exploration aspect.

I think people who took more of a freedom approach probably are the ones who are happier. Personally I took the game for what it was and wasn't approaching it expecting a Zelda game. Tbh I don't tend to like Zelda games so much, the whole reason I bought the game was just as an open world game.

For me, I'd have appreciated having a storage room for my meals in my house!! And... maybe in the post game dlc (dlc 2 is postgame right?) an ability to clear Hyrule of enemies without blood moons respawning them - a definitive clearance! and I mean.,. the Yiga clan... how many times do I need to kill them? the random fights just got annoying after a while, I'd often just teleport to the closest shrine/beacon just to avoid them

I still haven't completed the game yet, I think I left it at a point where I just had to get Ganon, but I was looking for shrines and koroks before I did that.. and now life has gotten too busy, I don't think I'll touch the game for a few months (or ever?? :s)
But I definitely found that they got a great balance on the exploration... in the sparse towns I felt totally safe, but once you wonder out things get a bit trickier. I'm also still finding little nooks and crannys I'd somehow not spotted/not remembered, so that's cool too. In the metroid games as an example, I never really invested much in the story tbh, so I don't think the narrative missing is a huge loss for me. Although I can see it would have made sense of what I was doing... making it into perhaps more of a "quest" than just a simple adventure.

[drahkon]

2 minutes ago, Pestneb said:

I think people who took more of a freedom approach probably are the ones who are happier. Personally I took the game for what it was and wasn't approaching it expecting a Zelda game.

I stand by what I said months ago: If this wasn't a Zelda game I would've probably enjoyed it more. It would've needed lot more lore and plot progression, but even if it only was a new IP it would've been more enjoyable to me. Certain aspects of the game should be ditched, as well, but I won't go into it again.

Thing is: I expected a Zelda game, because...well, it's called The Legend of Zelda And it didn't feel like one.

[Ronnie]

What does it matter what title the game has. The game is the game, one that's gotten perfect scores pretty much everywhere and will walk the GOTY awards later this year.

"plot progression" would have ruined the open ended nature of the game. There was plenty of plot, you just had to look for it.

[S.C.G]

19 minutes ago, drahkon said:

I stand by what I said months ago: If this wasn't a Zelda game I would've probably enjoyed it more. It would've needed lot more lore and plot progression, but even if it only was a new IP it would've been more enjoyable to me. Certain aspects of the game should be ditched, as well, but I won't go into it again.

Thing is: I expected a Zelda game, because...well, it's called The Legend of Zelda And it didn't feel like one.

It definitely feels like a Zelda game to me, just a different breed of one but I respect your opinion.

In some ways it is very unlike Zelda games of the past, a lot of it you can put down to the "breaking of conventions" theme which runs deep.

Again, I won't go into it... I did produce most of the main site review (with some help which I'm grateful for) so I feel like I've lived inside that game for a while, I definitely love it and stand by the score but after a few months, I can see how certain aspects could be improved for future releases.

It's definitely an important entry for the series, I can't wait to get back into the game world again when the rest of the DLC hits and I feel that Zelda will have a fantastic future if Nintendo can leverage the excellent engine they've created for Breath of the Wild, in the right way for any potential sequels or indeed utilising it for any new IP's is also something I would welcome.

One way or another though, it has definitely been a success on some level.

Edited August 5, 2017 by S.C.G

[drahkon]

12 minutes ago, S.C.G said:

It definitely feels like a Zelda game to me, just a different breed of one but I respect your opinion.

Different strokes, I guess

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In some ways it is very unlike Zelda games of the past, a lot of it you can put down to the "breaking of conventions" theme which runs deep.

Indeed. And for me it's too much unlike past Zelda games.

Nintendo did a good job creating something new, even though I don't like a lot of what they incorporated into the game, but it would've benefited from being a new IP. For me at least.

Or, as mentioned many times, flesh out the lore and story. Zelda has sooooo much potential in regards to its history (in-game history).

Edited August 5, 2017 by drahkon

[Grazza]

9 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I couldn't disagree more. 1. It was an adventure game that allowed you to create your own plot, with plenty of backstory thrown in for good measure.

 

Backstory was fine.  There really wasn't a plot though - changes of circumstance; one thing leading to another.

 

It's no coincidence OOT is a fan favourite when you have memorable scenes such as the meeting with young Zelda, or how once you take the Master Sword you're transported to a time when Ganondorf has taken over and things are very different.  Similar situation with Wind Waker: infiltrating the Forsaken Fortress, putting the pearls in the statues and making the Tower appear, the battle with the Helmarok King, Valoo rescuing you... etc.

 

9 hours ago, Ronnie said:

2. Very little sense of progression? Did you want "You've reached Level 37!" type messages that pop up at arbitrary points? The progression was tied to how much stronger you were becoming, be it through the weapons you were finding, the Champion spells you were learning and the amount of hearts/stamina you were collecting.

 

And when a weapon breaks, you're back to square one.  It wasn't a substitute for powering up your swords and shields in earlier games.  Fair point about the Champion's skills though.

 

9 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Not sure what you mean by a poor balance of linearity v exploration. The whole point is you could do whatever you want, that's what made the game so special. If you want narrative based, cutscene-heavy linear experience, there are a dozen other Zelda games like that and the vast majority of AAA release out there.

 

What I mean is that there was a massive, disproportionate amount of land to explore for every one significant location.  Furthermore, these locations were not even used to stage events.

 

It's not necessarily about cutscenes.  Remember that bit in Twilight Princess where you have a duel with King Bulblin - is that a cutscene or an event?  I'd say it's simply something happening in the environment.

[Glen-i]

4 hours ago, drahkon said:

They should use the engine to create a Pokémon game.

There's a special place in Poké Hell for you.

[drahkon]

17 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

There's a special place in Poké Hell for you.

Why?

[Glen-i]

5 minutes ago, drahkon said:

Why?

Just my sarky way of saying I don't like the idea of an open world Pokemon too much. I just don't like open world games.

[drahkon]

19 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Just my sarky way of saying I don't like the idea of an open world Pokemon too much. I just don't like open world games.

There's a special place in openworld hell for you.

[Hero-of-Time]

Cool video. Confirms that another Zelda art book is on the way very soon and that it focuses on BOTW.

Also, Link gets the WW lobster top in the 2nd DLC pack. Was this already known?

[killthenet]

2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Also, Link gets the WW lobster top in the 2nd DLC pack. Was this already known?

Yeah, it was announced a couple of weeks back when Anouma gave a few more details on the Champions Ballad. It might have actually been announced at this event but you might not have picked up on it until the new translation that went up today. 

Even though I love Breath Of The Wild it definitely doesn't quite feel like a Zelda game because it doesn't feature the typical 'getting stronger' progression through the game and the lack of more conventional dungeons was disappointing to me but what it tries to do it does really well and still has all of the charm that was present in a game like Wind Waker and I've never had so much fun just traversing the world in a game. 

[Hero-of-Time]

For those of us who thought the game was less than stellar, Destructoid have written quite a lengthy article about how they think BOTW is very overrated. While it does turn into a rant at times, the article is still a good read. He highlights many of the issues that a few of us on here had when playing and completing BOTW, so I can totally sympathise with his overall feeling towards the game.

HERE

 

 

[drahkon]

16 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

For those of us who thought the game was less than stellar, Destructoid have written quite a lengthy article about how they think BOTW is very overrated. While it does turn into a rant at times, the article is still a good read. He highlights many of the issues that a few of us on here had when playing and completing BOTW, so I can totally sympathise with his overall feeling towards the game.

HERE

Such a weird article. Regarding content it's spot on, but the wording sometimes makes it sound like rant, as you said. However, I do agree with a lot what has been said in the article. A couple of quotes that nail how I feel about certain aspects of the game:

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Put simply, Breath of the Wild lacks charm, character, personality, or that "Zelda magic."

It's what I've said the moment I finished the game

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Rounding out the generic go-to Legend of Zelda cast is Ganon, who has absolutely no presence in the game whatsoever.

100% agree. Ganon is there but at the same time isn't. He's one of the most boring villains in any game I've ever played because he doesn't interact with you.

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None of the NPCs in the game are really affected by what's transpiring, and no side quests are about helping someone negatively affected by Ganon or his purple goo. Hateno Village was completely unharmed, but Kakariko, Zora Domain, Death Mountain, Gerudo Town, and RIto Village likewise seem unaffected. Some of the NPCs in those towns speak of how the Divine Beasts make life hard but you don't really witness it. Kids are frolicking about in undamaged cities while they have plenty to eat and drink. 

Another reason why I think Ganon is a dumb villain. Yes, the world is in ruins but the village(r)s are all basically unaffected.

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Breath of Wild has its NPCs, but they are bland and as memorable as my ex-girlfriends' birthdays. They don't have unique characteristics, designs, or problems. Looking like they were born out of some generator rather than a human, they send you on shallow fetch quests. Collect 55 rushrooms. Tame that horse. The rewards are almost always just rupees, ingredients, or more generic breakable weapons.

Exactly my thoughts about quests...BotW has the same "tropes" that any other open world game has...

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The game feigns difficulty in the first few hours (only as far as combat is concerned, not puzzles). But very quickly as you get used to the controls and mechanics you can take on any of the repeat enemies and Bokoblin skulls aside from Lynels. But you quickly stop raiding camps and just avoid enemies in general, just as you slowly lose interest in exploring every ruin, because there is no suitable reward.

 

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Even beginners are able to dispatch Guardians in the Major Tests of Strength, while sponges are the worst way to create difficulty and "progression."

The game is absolutely not hard. Nothing in this game is difficult.

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On top of that, the final boss feels almost as uninspired as the blights. There is no play on expectations or any sense of theatrics or any sort of speech; it's just a weird creature that you'd expect. He doesn't hold a candle to Wind Waker's nor Ocarina of Time's Ganondorf/Ganons, Majora's Mask, Zant, or Demise.

A little more about how boring Ganon is. He's just there to serve as the final boss. And my god, what a boring final boss that was...

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The world is wide as an ocean but deep as a puddle with nothing worthwhile outside the major zones that would be in the game even if it weren't open world (Kakariko, Zora's Domain, Gerudo, Death Mountain, Rito Village, Hateno).

The most apt description of how I feel about BotW's world.

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Just as the four Divine Beasts are all themed the exact same way, so too are all 120 shrines, which people praise as better than themed and unique dungeons with unique bosses for some sick reason. All have the exact same aesthetic, same music, and same lack of connection to game's world.

! Some shrines are interesting but the fact that all are basically the same makes them tedious to do, in my opinion. And with the bonuses you can get via cooking getting heart containers and stamina upgrades is actually not needed.

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but breakable weapons is not a fun concept at all. It's tedious and makes finding and collecting new weapons completely moot because "well I'll be able to use this for a few seconds til it breaks."

You all know how much I hate breakable weapons

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Climbing and watching the stamina bar is not fun, and it's downright annoying when it begins to rain. Call it a mechanic or whatever you want but it's not fun. It feels like they added a ton of mountain ranges just to pad the game length and justify a stamina meter when flatter land would have been just as acceptable

My thoughts exactly.

 

And the following is the most important one:

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It's time to stop using "open world" and "you can go anywhere" as inherently positive concepts, criticizing anything that is even slightly linear. Linearity allows developers to deliver you all the best content in a exciting and logical progression.

This is why I think Horizon: Zero Dawn nails the "open world" and "linearity" concepts and by that I mean how the devs perfected the balance between those two. You can explore the world as you wish, fight monsters, collect items, find out more about what happens in the past without progressing the story, etc. And the quests (main and side quests) are a beautiful mix of linearity (i.e. they progress the story and "force" you to advance once you start them) and freedom (i.e. you can approach fights however you want).

 

Before some people bring out the pitchforks again: It's a good game, I never denied that. It's just overrated.

To be honest, it's a shame that this is going to win every GotY award this year because quite frankly it doesn't deserve it. Or to be more precise: Those who give the awards should think more critically about this game and give other games a chance. It will never happen, though. And if it does it's going to be clickbait

[Hero-of-Time]

1 minute ago, drahkon said:

To be honest, it's a shame that this is going to win every GotY award this year because quite frankly it doesn't deserve it. Or to be more precise: Those who give the awards should think more critically about this game and give other games a chance. It will never happen, though. And if it does it's going to be clickbait

It will be interesting to see how things play out in a few years. From my own experience i've already seen more and more people starting to pick up on the faults of the game now that the zeitgeist is over. Again, as you said, it's a good game but there seems to be more and more people starting to come around to the opinion that the game is not worthy of the praise that was lavished upon it. Still, I imagine either this or Mario Odyssey will win GOTY for most places.

Ever since finishing the game i've thought it would be interesting to see just what kind of reception this would have been given had the Zelda name not been attached to it. I'm of the firm belief that it would not have been given as much praise and that certain things about the game, namely a lot of things Destructoid talked about, would have been criticised by many more outlets.

[Happenstance]

That article lists a lot of my feelings towards the game as well.

[drahkon]

2 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Still, I imagine either this or Mario Odyssey will win GOTY for most places.

What I've seen from Mario Odyssey so far (which isn't much) I'd say that this will probably be a much better GotY contender in my opinion. (by the way: What do you think of Odyssey so far?).

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Ever since finishing the game i've thought it would be interesting to see just what kind of reception this would have been given had the Zelda name not been attached to it.

To be frank, I always wonder what the reception to many things Nintendo did/does would be if it wasn't Nintendo. They do get criticized for their online situation but I think they should get much much more...And again, people, don't come at me with a knife. Nintendo has done a lot of good things with the Switch (even though I don't like much about it) and the DS...

[Hero-of-Time]

1 minute ago, drahkon said:

What I've seen from Mario Odyssey so far (which isn't much) I'd say that this will probably be a much better GotY contender in my opinion. (by the way: What do you think of Odyssey so far?).

I'm looking forward to it but I haven't seen anything outside of the E3 trailer. Like I done with BOTW, I don't want to see much from the game and just want to go in fresh. I agree with you though in that MO looks to appeal a lot more to me and what I want out of a game than BOTW ever did.

[Pestneb]

9 hours ago, killthenet said:

it definitely doesn't quite feel like a Zelda game because it doesn't feature the typical 'getting stronger' progression through the game and the lack of more conventional dungeons was disappointing to me but what it tries to do it does really well and still has all of the charm that was present in a game like Wind Waker and I've never had so much fun just traversing the world in a game. 

there is a getting stronger progression, it's just natural. As you defeat stronger enemies they drop stronger shields/weapons which make defeating other enemies easier (or in my case at least, possible! :D) Also with hearts and knowledge/possession of stronger meals and potions, and simply knowing the game better. I actually think that side is done really well.
 

I have to confess... I'm not a huge fan of Zelda, the dungeons thing is a strange complaint to me.. the shrines SHOULD fill that void, but I do agree... there is something different, and I can't put my finger on it.

I feel BotW has less charm than wind waker, but I find it far more fun traversing it's world. I wonder what WW would feel like with this engine (with the respawning of enemies, cooking, weapons etc) Obviously it would need several key adjustments... and perhaps a bit more development on water combat? (I personally wouldn't enter lizalfos infested waters :D)

[Hero-of-Time]

New update has hit.

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Version 1.3.1
We have fixed the issue in Pack 1: The Master Trials of the Expansion Pass, in which defeating certain enemies for Kilton was not counted toward completion when playing in Master Mode.
In-game items can now be obtained from launching the software from certain articles distributed through a new News channel ("The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild – Tips from the Wild") which can be accessed through News on the Home menu.
This channel is expected to open on 8/9/2017.
Depending on your game progress and location, certain items may not be obtainable.
Various fixes to improve gameplay.

 

[Ronnie]

That article could be written for every single succesful video game. Every critically acclaimed game can be torn apart if you look closely enough. Again it hunts down negatives, ignoring what the game has done to breath life into an over-saturated genre.

11 hours ago, killthenet said:

Yeah, it was announced a couple of weeks back when Anouma gave a few more details on the Champions Ballad. It might have actually been announced at this event but you might not have picked up on it until the new translation that went up today. 

Even though I love Breath Of The Wild it definitely doesn't quite feel like a Zelda game because it doesn't feature the typical 'getting stronger' progression through the game and the lack of more conventional dungeons was disappointing to me but what it tries to do it does really well and still has all of the charm that was present in a game like Wind Waker and I've never had so much fun just traversing the world in a game. 

It has a progression system, it's just integrated into the gameplay more and doesn't rely on the tired arbitrary levelling up mechanic present in most other games. As Peer on NVC put it a while back the whole game is a quest for confidence, you're roaming the world making yourself stronger in an effort to take Ganon on.