Skin Colour, Races and Racism

[Will]

7 hours ago, Animal said:

manager shouted "GOT YOU, YOU BLACK BASTARD!" and then looked straight at me and said "No offence".

That’s crazy, can’t believe there are people (both the manager and the other staff) with so little awareness of what they’re saying.

7 hours ago, Animal said:

I think if I'm truly being honest here, apart from the obvious shit that I've had over the years, the thing that truly bothers me is the "Equal Opportunities" forms. I understand them but it's quite rare to actually find a box for "Mixed (Please specify). I ticked "White" and "Black Caribbean" for my job at the shoe shop and she asked "You've ticked both?" and I said "Yeah. Nothing against you but I'm tired of not being able to choose "Mixed" because it's not in there. I'm a mixed race man. I'm not just White and I'm not just Black Caribbean either" and she actually smiled, laughed and said "Ha! 'Equal Opportunities' my arse" and years later, I'm still there and the new forms have been updated to include Mixed people. I doubt it had anything to do with me but it's just nice to see it finally being recognised.

In Singapore, this goes a step further and is actually part of your official documentation. It then plays into things such as houses you want to buy and other general life things that they decide what you are entitled to based on the race you have documented. I recently registered a child and put their race as “mixed” which was incorrect as that does not exist in their system, you have to pick from 5 or 6 very specific ones they have available with no flexibility. Really annoyed me!

6 hours ago, bob said:

1) Stop everyone saying it, and eventually it dies out. I guess there are hundreds of words like this throughout history that we don't use anymore, and thus don't have any power behind them.

2) Reclaim the word in a positive way until the meaning no longer works as an insult. The gay community successfully reclaimed the word 'queer' this way for example.

Trying to reclaim the 'n' word while at the same time stopping others from using it seems to be an unworkable combination of the two, where you end up with the word still having the power to insult, whilst remaining a common word. You end up in a ridiculous situation where you have a sliding scale of skin colour, where you have some level of melanin where you differently become allowed to say a word.

I also remember that time a black rapper got a white girl up on stage to sing along to one of his songs, and then it got all awkward when she got to a lyric with the 'n' word and said it along with him, but the crowd reacted negatively, and the rapper backtracked etc.

I think you’re right in very general terms - it does seem quite unworkable to have a particular word that is OK for one group of people to use and be completely unthinkable for another group. There has to be some consistency in how words can be used even just looking at it from a historical recording perspective. When it comes to this word and the connotations behind it that’s something very difficult to do. 

3 hours ago, Jonnas said:

(On a side-note, the idea that racism is "Prejudice + Power", or else it doesn't count, is bullshit. Power, prominence, and influence affects how much harm one's particular brand of discrimination brings, but evidently, a victim of racism has to deal with a whole spectrum of offences and disrespect.)

I actually quite liked that as a definition. The people in the US/UK who say white people suffer from racism too always sounded a bit ridiculous to me but I didn’t have a good way to say exactly why. Looking at it from this angle gives a good way to see it imo. Living in Asia there are always people defining me by my whiteness in a very casual way that if said to a black person elsewhere I would definitely consider to be racism. The difference is that they hold no power over me and nothing in my life could even come close to being impacted by it. It’s stupid, but it doesn’t make me think I have a reason to say I’ve been racially abused.

[Beast]

8 hours ago, will' said:

That’s crazy, can’t believe there are people (both the manager and the other staff) with so little awareness of what they’re saying.

Here's the craziest thing: they did. It wasn't the first time I've had incidents like that. The manager, admittedly, was a one-off but she stood up for me when a customer started being racist towards me when a guy came in saying he didn't want to be served by my kind and didn't even want to acknowledge me. She said that if I wasn't good enough, nobody else in the store was and he would stand in the queue and wait until someone served him but then was about to leave. Before he left though, the guy demanded head office's number to file a complaint about the shop. The manager denied him the number and told him to find it himself but the assistant manager, standing next to her, overrode that and gave it to him (but she didn't really like me anyway). The worst I had in the shop was the supervisor that I worked alongside of. He was terrible. He used to come out with nasty things like he would line Muslims up and shoot them, he thought black people and white people should stick to their own, nicknamed me Sandy (which I never understood until much later) and was saying how black people are unattractive. I mean, don't get me wrong when I say I did nothing previously, we had words. I even pointed out that I couldn't believe he was saying this stuff to me, of all people, and he was like "Nah, you're alright, you're one of the good ones" and I'm like "Oh wow, thanks(!)" but the sarcasm wasn't detected. One day I just completely snapped and grabbed him by the throat and threatened him because it got bad and told him about himself. I'm really not at all a violent person but he got to me badly. He apologised then and even apologised later. Thinking back now, I should've reported him but then what evidence did I have? Only one other person saw this happen and one other person knew he was the way he was and she was Black too but she shrugged it off because she didn't see how bad he got. Sounds weird but he isn't actually a terrible person- he's just completely uneducated when it comes to stuff like that (but then I suppose most racists are). We both say hello when I go into the shop and stuff but very recently, I didn't actually acknowledge how really bad it was until now. Don't forget, this was only 5 years ago as well.

At the same time that happened, I had a bit of a racist incident happen in a card and gift shop. My two friends worked there as the manager and assistant at the time and I applied for a job as I had worked for the company previously. She came out and said something along the lines of "I had to keep my eye on you, I thought you'd rob the place because...well..." and then looked at me. Now, bear in mind, that I was wearing a smart shirt, smart trousers, hair was neat and black shoes as I had been trying to look for another job (funnily enough to get out of the one above) and I was acting completely normal so because my mind was already insinuating everything, I left it. My manager friend insisted I went out with him to the shops so I did and he said "I just witnessed everything she has said just now. Do you want me to report it?" and I said "I wasn't sure if I was being a bit sensitive" and he said "No way, we don't condone that. Do you want to take it further?" and I said I did because I was genuinely disgusted. Anyway, after about a week, she spun the tale of we all tried to get her out so I could have her job and two other members of staff WHO WEREN'T THERE backed her up and then put in a complaint about my friends over something completely different and turned out to be false. So what happened was my friends, doing the right thing, got warnings for something completely different that turned out to be false, and the girl, who said that to me, got nothing and is actually still at her job to this day. I phoned up head office asking if the matter had been resolved and all I got was "It has been handled, we can't tell you what has happened". As a stand on principle, I've never gone into the shop again because I'm not supporting a company who would brush it over so easily.

It's weird because over the last 10 years, I've faced it an awful lot and just never clicked on to how much I've seen it. I've had little incidents and then I've had blatant incidents. Even my mindset has changed. Like, I went through a moment where, because of the forms and had nothing to tick, I considered myself as White even though I knew I wasn't. It wasn't until I was older where I thought "Why should I only tick this box when it's not who I am? Why am I even thinking like this?" and ticked them both. I'm obviously mixed race, I knew I was mixed race, but because of my friends always telling me they never saw me as brown and thought of me as white (not in a nasty way), I kind of started believing it. Sounds so strange now I say it but it's true. But I think it was due to the fact I never really had a connection to my mother's side of the family and the fact I grew up in a predominantly white area that I never even saw myself as that. I call myself mixed race now though because it's been brought to light so many times over the last near-10 years.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Animal

[Rummy]

Ahhh what a great convo! Been enjoying it. Not got a lot of time to reply proper right now but theres something I think called 'The school that tried to end racism' on C4 tonight at 9pm(actual live TV alololol what a square). I saw one ad earlier in the week; looked mildly Jane Elliott style but not really - but it could be curious. I think they seperate white and non-white kids then get them to reflect on things of their heritage culture etc(primary age or close into early secondary it seemed).

Poss worth a watch. I shall try to catch it. Also gonna post up some replies to some of the above later too hopefully!

 

EDIT: Mate. This is SO on point of what we need right now. Honestly make sure you guys watch this - the light of hope is within our youth.

[Ronnie]

So Black Pound Day is apparently a thing now and I don't get it. I obviously understand the Black Lives Matter campaign but this? It makes no sense to me. Why not treat black people the same way you treat everyone else? Then the world would be a much better place. But no, we're now told to treat black people as "different", and there's never been more division as there is now. It's so dumb and things like this just shine a spotlight on this imaginary line society has created 

[Goafer]

It's highlighting black businesses and encouraging people to explore different options. How can that possibly be a bad thing? No one is forcing you to. It's like a "community highlight" day, highlighting options you may not have considered.

[Beast]

It's weird because I didn't actually know this was a thing until I saw it on here. I'm in two views about it but mostly leaning on it being kind of counter-productive. Whilst I think it's a positive thing, as @Goafer indicated, I can also see @Ronnie's point of view too. Obviously it would be great for businesses to have a bit of a boost BUT I wouldn't want anyone to hire me as a Personal Trainer purely based on my skin colour, I personally don't think that would be productive to what I want out of this world. I would rather them hire me because they want to, I'd want them to hire me because they may see my results and see that I'm capable and skilled in that area and I could possibly make an impact in their lives. I don't know, it just feels a little bit like people are participating in it to feel good about themselves rather than doing it because it would benefit them (if that makes sense...I really am trying to word this as best as I can). Basically, I just want to be treated equally by everyone with no special treatments. If a white/Asian/Indian/Chinese/Japanese man was better than me at doing my job, I'd fully expect you to go to him.

I do think the same thing as @Ronnie in the respect that this whole thing can cause more division, which is honestly something I said could possibly happen since the protests happened here.

Hopefully I made a bit of sense, lmao.

[Ronnie]

3 hours ago, Goafer said:

It's highlighting black businesses and encouraging people to explore different options. How can that possibly be a bad thing? No one is forcing you to. It's like a "community highlight" day, highlighting options you may not have considered.

And you don't find that in the least bit condescending towards black people? "Here guys here's a special day, juuust for you!"

As for encouraging people to explore different options, I do that anyway when I shop, I don't care about the colour of someone's skin.

It's pathetic, and utterly counterproductive. We should be breaking down division, not encouraging it with nonsense like this.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Ronnie

[Goafer]

59 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

And you don't find that in the least bit condescending towards black people? "Here guys here's a special day, juuust for you!"

As for encouraging people to explore different options, I do that anyway when I shop, I don't care about the colour of someone's skin.

It's pathetic, and utterly counterproductive. We should be breaking down division, not encouraging it with nonsense like this.

No not really. It's the same as any marketing day. Out of curiosity, if you oppose patronising "special days", do you also oppose black history month, mother's/father's days and any other day that celebrates a certain demographic?

Good for you that you shop around. A lot of people don't, or don't even think about it. Again, I can't possibly see how something that might encourage a bit of diversity can possibly be seen as "pathetic".

It's easy to say things akin to "I don't see colour", but a chipper attitude isn't enough to fix things. Things need to change in a societal level and "be nice" just won't cut it.

Sure, a day or two of free advertising for minority businesses won't change the world overnight, but if minority owned businesses get a small boost and are more visible to the general public, it's a start.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Goafer

[Jonnas]

On 25/06/2020 at 1:26 AM, will' said:

I actually quite liked that as a definition. The people in the US/UK who say white people suffer from racism too always sounded a bit ridiculous to me but I didn’t have a good way to say exactly why. Looking at it from this angle gives a good way to see it imo. Living in Asia there are always people defining me by my whiteness in a very casual way that if said to a black person elsewhere I would definitely consider to be racism. The difference is that they hold no power over me and nothing in my life could even come close to being impacted by it. It’s stupid, but it doesn’t make me think I have a reason to say I’ve been racially abused.

Power/prominence in society affects how strong one's racism/prejudice can be once they engage in it. There is a difference between white people thinking black people are untrustworthy and, say, Indian people thinking the same: when looking for jobs, there is a strong likelihood your potential boss and/or workplace is predominantly white, and whatever preconceived view white people have of you will influence that relationship. White people's prejudice costing a minority a job is a more likely event than Indian people's prejudice costing that same minority a job, if only because white people are more common. On the other side of the spectrum, whatever prejudices Indian people have against white people are unlikely to affect their ability to find jobs. In the end, "power" is just an indicator of how much one's racism harms people, not on whether it exists or not.

The issue with thinking that you need power to be racist, is that it doesn't address racism between minorities (and it's troublesome if it does: we don't need a hierarchy of "Which race has power, in which order?"). It also promotes the "trap" that minorities can act nasty towards the majority, despite that being a very bad idea for discourse in general (I remember Anita Sarkeesian using the argument to justify her own sexist remarks against men).

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

And you don't find that in the least bit condescending towards black people? "Here guys here's a special day, juuust for you!"

As for encouraging people to explore different options, I do that anyway when I shop, I don't care about the colour of someone's skin.

It's pathetic, and utterly counterproductive. We should be breaking down division, not encouraging it with nonsense like this.

I think you're overestimating how much of a boon a day makes. Unless black people get the day off work or something, these are usually just a marketing and/or awareness thing.

What I do know is that things like Pride Month and Black History Month have encouraged a few youtube channels I follow to make videos focusing on queer and African-focused topics on those respective dates. If those months weren't around, maybe they wouldn't prioritise those topics. If having a celebratory month encourages people to talk and learn more about a neglected demographic and/or sub-culture, I think the impact is more positive than not.

Just saying, I don't think Father's Day has brought division between fathers and non-fathers. It's only meant to promote fatherhood, and discussions on what that means or entails.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Jonnas

[Ronnie]

22 minutes ago, Goafer said:

Out of curiosity, if you oppose patronising "special days", do you also oppose black history month, mother's/father's days and any other day that celebrates a certain demographic?

Black history month is at least educational and Mother's/Father's day isn't remotely the same situation as "hey, buy from black people because let's treat them as special and different from the rest of us for this one day", and I hope you can appreciate that.

20 minutes ago, Goafer said:

It's easy to say things akin to "I don't see colour", but a chipper attitude isn't enough to fix things. Things need to change in a societal level and "be nice" just won't cut it.

So you're saying that subconsciously teaching people to treat black people differently is the way forward? And that highlighting that division by shining a spotlight on the fact that black people are different is a good thing? I couldn't disagree more. We're supposed to be breaking down barriers, not putting them up.

26 minutes ago, Goafer said:

Sure, a day or two of free advertising for minority businesses won't change the world overnight, but if minority owned businesses get a small boost and are more visible to the general public, it's a start.

So you're saying that these so called "minority businesses" need help? Bit of a generalisation.

10 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

What I do know is that things like Pride Month and Black History Month have encouraged a few youtube channels I follow to make videos focusing on queer and African-focused topics on those respective dates. If those months weren't around, maybe they wouldn't prioritise those topics. If having a celebratory month encourages people to talk and learn more about a neglected demographic and/or sub-culture, I think the impact is more positive than not.

It's tricky because I can obviously see the benefit of educational things like this. From my personal pov, I'm gay and I find the whole Pride month thing a bit embarrassing but I appreciate that's an unpopular opinion. I wish gay people would just be treated the same way as straight people in this country, and to not constantly be reminded that gay people are considered different.

But I still consider the above months you mention to be different than "Hey give a few quid to black people on this day" like they're some kind of charity.

 

[Goafer]

11 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Black history month is at least educational and Mother's/Father's day isn't remotely the same situation as "hey, buy from black people because let's treat them as special and different from the rest of us for this one day", and I hope you can appreciate that.

I think you're interpreting it all wrong/twisting the message. It's not "Buy from black people because they're special", it's "Rather than your usual habits, why not check out some black sellers/authors/suppliers etc to support the black community?". No one's forcing you to "buy black" so to speak, it's just reminding people that they're there.

10 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

So you're saying that subconsciously teaching people to treat black people differently is the way forward? And that highlighting that division by shining a spotlight on the fact that black people are different is a good thing? I couldn't disagree more. We're supposed to be breaking down barriers, not putting them up.

No, I'm saying that consciously people need to address the subconscious racism and bias that currently exists. White people have a societal head start and until a conscious shift is made, treating everyone equal won't change that. Racism isn't always a conscious process. It requires definite, conscious action to force people to rethink their habits and how it may perpetuate bias. 

10 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

So you're saying that these so called "minority businesses" need help? Bit of a generalisation.

I can't comment myself, as I've never been a black business owner. But if the black person who created it deems it necessary, I'll trust his judgement. My own opinion is that black and minority people are more likely to come from a poorer background, so may not have the same resources to set up and market a business as a white person would. By giving black and minority businesses a bit of free advertising, it could help level the playing field and bring us one step closer to actual equality.

 

TLDR: When something is unequal, giving both sides the same treatment doesn't fix it. Redressing the balance does and in this case it means giving black and minority businesses a bit of free advertising IMO.

 

 

 

[Beast]

45 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

From my personal pov, I'm gay and I find the whole Pride month thing a bit embarrassing but I appreciate that's an unpopular opinion. I wish gay people would just be treated the same way as straight people in this country, and to not constantly be reminded that gay people are considered different.

 

And this is exactly how I feel about the whole situation right now with everyone making up different things. At the very core of it, I don't want people to see my skin colour as different and to not have a constant reminder that it is. Quite honestly, this past month or so has made me feel more different than ever before and honestly, it's depressed me a little because I've thought back on a lot of stuff that's happened to me over the years and realised how much people see my colour before seeing me. It's genuinely put me a little on a downer, which is not like me. (Also, by the way, one of my best friends who is a gay man hates Pride month with a passion because he finds it cheesy and, in his words, "overly stereotypical" so you're not alone).

I am so torn with the whole Black Pound Day thing because I find myself agreeing with everyone's point.

Personally, I find Black History Month and "Black Pound Day" to be two different things (although I haven't heard an awful lot about Black History Month in recent years). As @Ronnie has stated, one is educational and can be used to teach people and it would surely make more sense to have Black Pound Day in Black History Month (although I've just heard it's supposed to be happening on the 27th of every month?). Although I think it's great that local and small businesses would be getting exposure, I can't help but feel it's almost like it's out of pity because of what's going on or charity to make others feel good about themselves as opposed to helping a small organisation owned by a minority. I like the fact that people are starting to become more interested in anti-racism, of course I do, but the thing I fear (and the thing that has already happened) is that it's more of a fashion thing than anything. I mean, look at "how you participate" in Black Pound Day. You buy from the business, post a picture of the purchase on social media and hashtag "Black Pound Day". Whilst I understand that social media is made to share and spread the word and can help the business, I can't help but feel when I read about hashtags and stuff that it feels very much like a fad. It feels like one of those posts that says "Like if you're not a racist" or something. Maybe I've been reading too much into it or what have you but I just can't help but feel like it.

I do also agree with @Goafer where he said about checking out black authors and such to support the community because I do believe it's important to get everybody's perspectives on different lives and how people feel. I'm not saying I'm against the whole "look for a black business" thing but I am against someone buying from them purely because they're black, if that makes sense. I don't know what to think.

What I do know is that you're both coming at this from a good place, which genuinely makes me happy.

 

[Ronnie]

49 minutes ago, Goafer said:

"Rather than your usual habits, why not check out some black sellers/authors/suppliers etc to support the black community?". No one's forcing you to "buy black" so to speak, it's just reminding people that they're there.

But why?

Why would I do that? I get that it's an optional thing, but it just seems pointless at best, counter-productive at worst.

(I'd typed out the above before reading the rest of your post which goes into more detail, still not convinced but I can see your argument more now. I get what you're saying about it helping (potentially) less well off businesses but that seems a separate issue to me.)

49 minutes ago, Goafer said:

No, I'm saying that consciously people need to address the subconscious racism and bias that currently exists

I can understand that but I don't think moves like Black Pound Day are the way to do that, and whilst I obviously can't speak to it myself, I can imagine many would find it pretty patronising and made to feel like a charity case. It's the same way when I pass by a sign at the local bank that says "we support the LGBTQARFFS+ community" I feel patronised. But again, unpopular opinion I'm sure, I think a lot of people these days want to be made to feel special, social media has a big part to play in that.

32 minutes ago, Animal said:

I don't want people to see my skin colour as different and to not have a constant reminder that it is. Quite honestly, this past month or so has made me feel more different than ever before

Exactly.

There hasn't been this much of a racial divide in decades. The sides feel like polar opposites right now and that's just sad, and I find it's being perpetuated on a daily basis with things like this that are frankly dripping with virtue signalling a lot of the time. Maybe not the creator of Black Pound Day but people like Etsy sending out emails telling people to buy stuff from black creators and the like. A lot of it just feels fake to me, which doesn't help.

@Goafer will I'm sure say that this heightened division is a necessary step for long term equality but I just don't see it. I think things were organically getting there before all this blew up. Yes systemic racism in the US police is a big problem, hence black lives matter, but all the stuff on the periphery is doing more harm than good imo.

32 minutes ago, Animal said:

(Also, by the way, one of my best friends who is a gay man hates Pride month with a passion because he finds it cheesy and, in his words, "overly stereotypical" so you're not alone).

Good to know! Your friend sounds like a smart guy.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Ronnie

[Nicktendo]

1 hour ago, Goafer said:

White people have a societal head start and until a conscious shift is made, treating everyone equal won't change that.

This is nonsense. Class, culture and work ethic have far more to do with how well you do in society, not colour. 

Asians earn more per capita than any other race in the USA, with those of Indian heritage topping all other ethnic groups. So saying white people have a head start is bollocks. 

The same is true in the UK https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest

Institutional racism in the U.S and the U.K has been over for years. That doesn't mean that people can't be racist, and many certainly are. But compare that to the 50s. Progress is being made, and there is still a long way to go, but you can't end it in a day. I think this whole movement is going to end up having the opposite effect that it desires. 

The main problem, as I see it, lies in culture, and I'm not referring specifically to "black" culture here. The link between being raised in a single parent home, regardless of race, is one of the biggest factors in determining success in life. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/demographics/families-and-households/latest No surprise that those high-earning British Asians have the lowest rates of lone parenthood. Black Brits have the highest. 

Ask yourself who's more likely to be successful - a hard-working black female from a middle-class two parent family, or a weed-smoking lazy white boy from a rough London council estate whose father's gone AWOL? Race doesn't even come into it. 

Maybe before handing out a special day to people to make them (and white people by proxy) feel good about themselves, we should actually get to the root of the issue of poverty, be it white, black or any ethnic group. Of course that would require undoing 30 years of telling people to "just do whatever you want, screw personal responsibility", rewriting marriage and benefit laws and would most certainly be absolutely, 100% racist. Just like celebrating people because of the colour of their skin. 

Britain is not a racist country and neither is America. Being treated equally, regardless of background, is enshrined in law. A conscious shift does not need to be made because the data shows that "white people" do not have a head start. 
If you want to see real institutional racism, real police brutality and real oppression of certain groups, go to pretty much any other country on earth. 

[Will]

2 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Power/prominence in society affects how strong one's racism/prejudice can be once they engage in it. There is a difference between white people thinking black people are untrustworthy and, say, Indian people thinking the same: when looking for jobs, there is a strong likelihood your potential boss and/or workplace is predominantly white, and whatever preconceived view white people have of you will influence that relationship. White people's prejudice costing a minority a job is a more likely event than Indian people's prejudice costing that same minority a job, if only because white people are more common. On the other side of the spectrum, whatever prejudices Indian people have against white people are unlikely to affect their ability to find jobs. In the end, "power" is just an indicator of how much one's racism harms people, not on whether it exists or not.

I definitely see your point here. I would say the issue you run into is having a massively wide definition of what racism is, with a huge overlap on prejudice and I’m not sure you can easily work on either of them like this. By putting power on the other side of the equation you get a clearer delineation between the two and don’t have racism being something any joker can pull up as something they’ve suffered from. 

2 hours ago, Jonnas said:

The issue with thinking that you need power to be racist, is that it doesn't address racism between minorities (and it's troublesome if it does: we don't need a hierarchy of "Which race has power, in which order?"). It also promotes the "trap" that minorities can act nasty towards the majority, despite that being a very bad idea for discourse in general (I remember Anita Sarkeesian using the argument to justify her own sexist remarks against men).

This part I don’t think is as valid. On each point: 

“it doesn't address racism between minorities” - it does, it just defines it as prejudices rather than racism.

“we don't need a hierarchy of "Which race has power, in which order?"” - Definitely not, you just need to know who has historical power and continues to benefit from it - it isn’t any of the minorities.

“It also promotes the "trap" that minorities can act nasty towards the majority, despite that being a very bad idea for discourse in general” - How exactly does it do that? It’s not saying that all other abuse and prejudice is fine apart from this specific part of it we call racism. It’s all wrong, including this specific part we define as racism.

2 hours ago, Ronnie said:

It's tricky because I can obviously see the benefit of educational things like this. From my personal pov, I'm gay and I find the whole Pride month thing a bit embarrassing but I appreciate that's an unpopular opinion. I wish gay people would just be treated the same way as straight people in this country, and to not constantly be reminded that gay people are considered different.

1 hour ago, Animal said:

And this is exactly how I feel about the whole situation right now with everyone making up different things. At the very core of it, I don't want people to see my skin colour as different and to not have a constant reminder that it is. Quite honestly, this past month or so has made me feel more different than ever before and honestly, it's depressed me a little because I've thought back on a lot of stuff that's happened to me over the years and realised how much people see my colour before seeing me. It's genuinely put me a little on a downer, which is not like me

Wouldn’t it be better to acknowledge these differences but for that to be totally OK and not something to judge the character of your person by? If we wipe out recognition of all the differences we have we may as well all go about wearing grey suits being totally boring. At the extreme end I think it would marginalize people even more to get to a point where we just ignore all differences and consider everyone the same.

Sorry to hear about how you feel over the past month, @Animal. Do you think the current highlighting of these issues is at least working in a positive way?

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

@Goafer will I'm sure say that this heightened division is a necessary step for long term equality but I just don't see it. I think things were organically getting there before all this blew up. Yes systemic racism in the US police is a big problem, hence black lives matter, but all the stuff on the periphery is doing more harm than good imo.

I think this is quite a common view, but imo wrong. Things were easier to ignore before because things were “fine” - now we’re talking about it and realizing everything isn’t “fine” and it’s quite difficult for a lot of people to come to terms with. All of the initiatives taking place are not about driving divisions. It’s about highlighting differences, educating people and allowing everyone to live together no matter their background or choice of life to lead. It’s very easy to say “I’m not a racist” or “I don’t see colour” or “I don’t judge you by your sexual orientation”, but actually working towards a society where these things don’t matter is not as easy as that.

2 hours ago, Goafer said:

Lot’s of things

I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said on the topic. I hope more people are starting to think like you after the events of recent months.

[Rummy]

Ronnie you remain the fool you always insist on being.

BLM is about highlighting systemic biases. The economic system is one if the most fundamental in the world and has a clear bias.

Suggesting we help blacl businesses etc. by putting money in their pockets(ie the money that makes the world go round) given they are constantly robbed and disadvantaged by the system is not a bad thing.

 

Unless you're white and suddenly scared Black People are getting power in one of its rawest forms in society especially in a time of pretty dire global economic positions - the power of money.

 

Can't say I expect less of you though. You basically came in here and tried to 'All Lives Matter' the convo. So I think on that front here with you I am done. Also enjoy YOU being the one who thinks he has the write to decide what black folk may or may not find condescending...rather than letting them tell you themselves...

 

Back to earlier stuff @Jonnas appreciate much of your response - but to clarify I was talking a bit lightly(no indians have really about faced me after finding out :p) and I had framed a lot of my post lightly conversationally to aim it towards @will' in part but also for other 'privileged white folk who feel they dont understand/see it'(as it were :p) - I imagine the bits of subtle racism both within and between ethnicities may not be something often seen/experienced by those in such a position.

 

[Rummy]

On 25/06/2020 at 8:06 PM, Rummy said:

Ahhh what a great convo! Been enjoying it. Not got a lot of time to reply proper right now but theres something I think called 'The school that tried to end racism' on C4 tonight at 9pm(actual live TV alololol what a square). I saw one ad earlier in the week; looked mildly Jane Elliott style but not really - but it could be curious. I think they seperate white and non-white kids then get them to reflect on things of their heritage culture etc(primary age or close into early secondary it seemed).

Poss worth a watch. I shall try to catch it. Also gonna post up some replies to some of the above later too hopefully!

 

EDIT: Mate. This is SO on point of what we need right now. Honestly make sure you guys watch this - the light of hope is within our youth.

Did anyone manage to catch this btw? Year 7 kids. Both episodes on 4od/All4 catchup. The School That Tried to End Racism - highly highly recommend it for any and all skin colours! Seeing both white and non-white kids in the same situations essentially was quite curious. It isn't Brown Eyes Blue Eyes and definitely a VERY different tone from Jane Elliott but it was a great watch; felt quite hopeful after it too. Did give @MoogleViper a shout about it dunno if he watched yet tho...

[Will]

39 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Asians earn more per capita than any other race in the USA, with those of Indian heritage topping all other ethnic groups. So saying white people have a head start is bollocks. 

The same is true in the UK https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest

Asians in the US also have the highest level of inequality, with most of the wealth seeming to come from foreign born immigrants rather than Americans, (Source). In the UK there seems to be some level of the same thing though less pronounced. In either case the success of one race does not remove the benefit of being white. There is still a level of inequality in both societies that needs to be addressed.

41 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Institutional racism in the U.S and the U.K has been over for years. That doesn't mean that people can't be racist, and many certainly are. But compare that to the 50s. Progress is being made, and there is still a long way to go, but you can't end it in a day. I think this whole movement is going to end up having the opposite effect that it desires. 

An institution is just a collection of people. If enough members of an institution are racist then that institution will be racist too. I think there has been quite a lot of news about the American police recently that would attest to this. You don’t have to have a written agenda of racism for an institution to not be racist. Even just continuing to benefit from previous racist policies should be seen as not doing enough to address the balance. 

I don’t think anybody should be too proud of the progress that has been made on this. Personally I think if you take the 50’s as the example then the fact we’re as we are now, 70 years later, is pretty shit to be honest.

46 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

The main problem, as I see it, lies in culture, and I'm not referring specifically to "black" culture here. The link between being raised in a single parent home, regardless of race, is one of the biggest factors in determining success in life. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/demographics/families-and-households/latest No surprise that those high-earning British Asians have the lowest rates of lone parenthood. Black Brits have the highest. 

Ask yourself who's more likely to be successful - a hard-working black female from a middle-class two parent family, or a weed-smoking lazy white boy from a rough London council estate whose father's gone AWOL? Race doesn't even come into it.

It’s definitely a huge problem, but who’s most likely to be in the worse situation? The histories of each race in Britain are very different and lead to very different positions in society in the present. If we truly had equality then none of these differences would exist.

48 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Britain is not a racist country and neither is America. Being treated equally, regardless of background, is enshrined in law. A conscious shift does not need to be made because the data shows that "white people" do not have a head start. 

I think you’re just ignoring the issue. Just because we’ve got laws to stop these things doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I also think you’ve misinterpreted your data as for the most part it’s quite clear there is a huge advantage in being white in western society. It’s not about some particular race doing well, it’s about always feeling safe and having whatever opportunity you want - something white people benefit from every day.

50 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

If you want to see real institutional racism, real police brutality and real oppression of certain groups, go to pretty much any other country on earth.

Which countries would you recommend? I completely agree with the point, just interested who you’d put up as examples.

[Goafer]

52 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

This is nonsense. Class, culture and work ethic have far more to do with how well you do in society, not colour. 

You're right, it does. But as the stats I posted show, minorities are more likely to be born into a "lower class" and have less opportunities. They're still recovering from the racism of the past.

52 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Institutional racism in the U.S and the U.K has been over for years. That doesn't mean that people can't be racist, and many certainly are. But compare that to the 50s. Progress is being made, and there is still a long way to go, but you can't end it in a day. I think this whole movement is going to end up having the opposite effect that it desires.

Just because the actual racism is over (which I'd argue isn't the case, based on the police treatment of black suspects vs white, amongst other things), doesn't mean the effects aren't still being felt. And saying things were worse before (or elsewhere for that matter) doesn't make things great now.

52 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Ask yourself who's more likely to be successful - a hard-working black female from a middle-class two parent family, or a weed-smoking lazy white boy from a rough London council estate whose father's gone AWOL? Race doesn't even come into it. 

I'd argue this case is wholly irrelevant. You've picked very specific, hypothetical examples. Of course a middle class person is going to do better than someone with the odds against them. That's not the point. The point is how likely you are to be born into either of those scenarios.

52 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Britain is not a racist country and neither is America. Being treated equally, regardless of background, is enshrined in law. A conscious shift does not need to be made because the data shows that "white people" do not have a head start. 
If you want to see real institutional racism, real police brutality and real oppression of certain groups, go to pretty much any other country on earth. 

Again, just because it's worse elsewhere, doesn't mean things are perfect here. You just need to read about the treatment of black people by police to see that things are far from great.

 

Also, as a general point about this thread and not aimed specifically at anyone: calling things "nonsense", "bollocks", "pathetic" or "fools" is just abrasive and argumentative. Try to keep things civil, yeah?

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Goafer

[Will]

1 minute ago, Rummy said:

Did anyone manage to catch this btw? Year 7 kids. Both episodes on 4od/All4 catchup. The School That Tried to End Racism - highly highly recommend it for any and all skin colours! Seeing both white and non-white kids in the same situations essentially was quite curious. It isn't Brown Eyes Blue Eyes and definitely a VERY different tone from Jane Elliott but it was a great watch; felt quite hopeful after it too. Did give @MoogleViper a shout about it dunno if he watched yet tho...

I’ve seen the first episode and thought it was great, going to watch the second episode today and come back on here with some comments. My main takeaways so far are they it highlights society in general in a very interesting way, in that nobody sees themselves as a racist and does try to be equal, all while enjoying the benefits that their (white) race brings to them.

Really looking forward to the next episode.

[Sheikah]

This is nonsense. Class, culture and work ethic have far more to do with how well you do in society, not colour.

And what about black people? You think white people don't have a societal head start over black people? You think black people have the same chance of going on to earn as much money as white people given they are more likely to be born into more deprived areas? Same chance to go on to be Prime Minister or President? Same chance to not be killed by police?

[Will]

3 hours ago, Rummy said:

Did anyone manage to catch this btw? Year 7 kids. Both episodes on 4od/All4 catchup. The School That Tried to End Racism - highly highly recommend it for any and all skin colours! Seeing both white and non-white kids in the same situations essentially was quite curious. It isn't Brown Eyes Blue Eyes and definitely a VERY different tone from Jane Elliott but it was a great watch; felt quite hopeful after it too. Did give @MoogleViper a shout about it dunno if he watched yet tho..

Just finished watching it and found the second episode even better than the first, I’d thoroughly recommend that everyone gives it a watch.

I think it confirms a lot of what you’ve been saying, @Rummy - start with self education and build an understanding so that all of us as individuals can play our part in breaking down the barriers we have in society and progressing.

I hope that more schools take on this sort of approach of actually talking about these issues and highlighting that racism and privilege exist, even though we think of ourselves as existing in a society that has already dealt with all of these things. Even these kids in a very multiracial school showed biases so for anyone to say society has got racism sorted out is totally bonkers.

[Nicktendo]

6 hours ago, will' said:

Asians in the US also have the highest level of inequality, with most of the wealth seeming to come from foreign born immigrants rather than Americans, (Source). In the UK there seems to be some level of the same thing though less pronounced. In either case the success of one race does not remove the benefit of being white. There is still a level of inequality in both societies that needs to be addressed.

Inequality is also massively prevalent in white populations in the US and UK. The relative success of Asian communities shows that neither country is racist, or that they are only racist against some non-whites, which is unlikely. Again, foreign born or not, success is related to culture and attitude, not race. 

Quote

An institution is just a collection of people. If enough members of an institution are racist then that institution will be racist too. I think there has been quite a lot of news about the American police recently that would attest to this. You don’t have to have a written agenda of racism for an institution to not be racist. Even just continuing to benefit from previous racist policies should be seen as not doing enough to address the balance. 

As I mentioned, people can be racist. If someone experiences racism through an institution, they have the law on their side for protection. As for the police being institutionally racist. Blacks are actually less likely to be killed by police, despite black males committing proportionally more crime and having more interactions with police.

6 hours ago, will' said:

I don’t think anybody should be too proud of the progress that has been made on this. Personally I think if you take the 50’s as the example then the fact we’re as we are now, 70 years later, is pretty shit to be honest.

Such sweeping change doesn't happen overnight. I would argue these things take generations to be fully eradicated, which is unfortunate, but also human nature. It's not perfect, but Western society has made huge strides to address issues of racism and has been largely successful so far, as evidenced by the data. Compare the incomes of different races at 10 year intervals since the 50s and it will be clear that racial barriers to success have been removed. 

6 hours ago, will' said:

I think you’re just ignoring the issue. Just because we’ve got laws to stop these things doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I also think you’ve misinterpreted your data as for the most part it’s quite clear there is a huge advantage in being white in western society. It’s not about some particular race doing well, it’s about always feeling safe and having whatever opportunity you want - something white people benefit from every day.

How am I ignoring the issue? I'm offering an alternative viewpoint that is backed up by the data. How exactly have I misrepresented it? If institutional racism existed, whites would clearly be at the top. This isn't the case. The issue is not race, it's a variety of other factors, which historical racism can play a role in, but not the main one. The police data from the US and UK shows that black people do not need to feel singled out by police. This is a cultural problem again, where hating and fearing the police are often values widely held among some certain minority communities. 

6 hours ago, Goafer said:

You're right, it does. But as the stats I posted show, minorities are more likely to be born into a "lower class" and have less opportunities. They're still recovering from the racism of the past.

The founding idea behind the US is that with hard work and the right attitude, people can change their circumstances in a generation. This also largely rings true in the U.K. Yes, being born poor can affect your chances of success, much more than race, but anyone can still become successful or rich, regardless of skin colour. Having two parents in the household is much more important than ethnicity in defining your chance of success. 

6 hours ago, Goafer said:

Just because the actual racism is over (which I'd argue isn't the case, based on the police treatment of black suspects vs white, amongst other things), doesn't mean the effects aren't still being felt. And saying things were worse before (or elsewhere for that matter) doesn't make things great now.

Things are better than ever before. As for treatment by the police, see my earlier point. 

6 hours ago, Goafer said:

I'd argue this case is wholly irrelevant. You've picked very specific, hypothetical examples. Of course a middle class person is going to do better than someone with the odds against them. That's not the point. The point is how likely you are to be born into either of those scenarios.

I picked an example which said class and family structure is more important than race in defining success. Being born poor is a disadvantage for anyone, but one that can be changed, again, with hard work and the right attitude. 

6 hours ago, Goafer said:

Again, just because it's worse elsewhere, doesn't mean things are perfect here. You just need to read about the treatment of black people by police to see that things are far from great.

I never claimed things were perfect. The treatment of black people by police is not an anomaly. They are afforded the same treatment as anyone else. 9 unarmed black people were killed by US police in 2019. Statistically and proportionally fewer than white people. Where's the racism? No black people in the U.K were killed by police in 2019. So despite commuting a proportionally higher number of crimes, they are less likely to suffer from police brutality than any other race. Why are other races not being targeted by police if this is a problem? Again, it's a cultural issue, not a racism issue. 

5 hours ago, Sheikah said:

And what about black people? You think white people don't have a societal head start over black people? You think black people have the same chance of going on to earn as much money as white people given they are more likely to be born into more deprived areas? Same chance to go on to be Prime Minister or President? Same chance to not be killed by police?

People who are born middle class have a societal head start over working class people. A black person has gone on to be president and they statistically less chance of being killed by police. The issue is not race. 

6 hours ago, will' said:

Which countries would you recommend? I completely agree with the point, just interested who you’d put up as examples.

Most Eastern European counties are far more racist than Western ones, socially and institutionally. Their views on immigration are 50 years behind the US and UK and the default view among many people is that non-white = bad / suspicious. Hungary and Romania have extremely huge issues with Roma people. Russian police use racial profiling to target people of Central Asian origin and society as a whole is deeply rooted in racism towards immigrants. China is an extremely racist country, especially towards Black people. This was highlighted by them being prevented from entering certain spaces and being locked down at home during the early days of COVID-19. Absolutely disgusting how they were being treated, purely for being of African origin. You've lived in Japan, how would you say you fared as a white person there? Were you afforded the same treatment as a native Japanese?

6 hours ago, Goafer said:

Also, as a general point about this thread and not aimed specifically at anyone: calling things "nonsense", "bollocks", "pathetic" or "fools" is just abrasive and argumentative. Try to keep things civil, yeah?

I apologise for that, it was uncalled for. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Nicktendo

[Will]

56 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Inequality is also massively prevalent in white populations in the US and UK. The relative success of Asian communities shows that neither country is racist, or that they are only racist against some non-whites, which is unlikely. Again, foreign born or not, success is related to culture and attitude, not race.

I just don’t get how you can use this one example and claim racism isn’t a problem in either country. Do you think the millions of people getting behind BLM and other initiatives have got it all wrong?

56 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

As I mentioned, people can be racist. If someone experiences racism through an institution, they have the law on their side for protection. As for the police being institutionally racist. Blacks are actually less likely to be killed by police, despite black males committing proportionally more crime and having more interactions with police.

I guess if you take the view that police treat black people better than they treat other races then you can make the argument that the law is on your side in issues concerning racism. From what I see it would appear that that is not the case though. In the UK black people are likely to receive longer sentences for the same crime as white people. Where are you taking these stats from? It seems to be a very different position to what is mostly being reported right now.

56 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Such sweeping change doesn't happen overnight. I would argue these things take generations to be fully eradicated, which is unfortunate, but also human nature. It's not perfect, but Western society has made huge strides to address issues of racism and has been largely successful so far, as evidenced by the data. Compare the incomes of different races at 10 year intervals since the 50s and it will be clear that racial barriers to success have been removed. 

We’ve had generations haven’t we? If you take a generation to be 30 years then that’s 2 (and change) since 1950 and 6 since slavery was abolished in the 1830s. Shouldn’t this be long enough? Is income by race the only measure we need to judge this by? I would disagree that racial barriers to success have been removed simply because you have some examples of some people being able to earn a little more than white people.

56 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

How am I ignoring the issue? I'm offering an alternative viewpoint that is backed up by the data. How exactly have I misrepresented it? If institutional racism existed, whites would clearly be at the top. This isn't the case. The issue is not race, it's a variety of other factors, which historical racism can play a role in, but not the main one. The police data from the US and UK shows that black people do not need to feel singled out by police. This is a cultural problem again, where hating and fearing the police are often values widely held among some certain minority communities. 

You’ve taken one data point and declared racism solved.

Personally I think that the fact I’m white has been hugely beneficial to me, if only for the reason I’ve never had to worry about this sort of thing.

I think the last part of this is quite racist in itself, you’re basically saying some minorities have a cultural problem because of their views on the police - and you think we don’t have an issue with racism?

56 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

The founding idea behind the US is that with hard work and the right attitude, people can change their circumstances in a generation. This also largely rings true in the U.K. Yes, being born poor can affect your chances of success, much more than race, but anyone can still become successful or rich, regardless of skin colour. Having two parents in the household is much more important than ethnicity in defining your chance of success. 

The American Dream for the most part doesn’t exist. Yes it’s technically possible to change your circumstances in a generation, but it’s also possible that you’ll win the lottery - it doesn’t happen for most people. Just because the possibility of something exists doesn’t mean everyone is starting from a level playing field and their are no barriers to success. Just because there may be bigger problems doesn’t mean others don’t exist.

57 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Most Eastern European counties are far more racist than Western ones, socially and institutionally. Their views on immigration are 50 years behind the US and UK and the default view among many people is that non-white = bad / suspicious. Hungary and Romania have extremely huge issues with Roma people. Russian police use racial profiling to target people of Central Asian origin and society as a whole is deeply rooted in racism towards immigrants. China is an extremely racist country, especially towards Black people. This was highlighted by them being prevented from entering certain spaces and being locked down at home during the early days of COVID-19. Absolutely disgusting how they were being treated, purely for being of African origin. You've lived in Japan, how would you say you fared as a white person there? Were you afforded the same treatment as a native Japanese?

From what I can tell those countries have laws against racism, so by your earlier arguments couldn’t you just take it as there are some racist people but it’s not really a problem as the law protects people from it? Of course it’s much worse in those places than the US/UK, but I don’t think you can say we’re doing OK because some other countries are worse.

My experience in Japan as a white person was great, I was treated like a VIP by most Japanese people. As a non-Japanese I didn’t always get the same treatment or eligibility for things as I wasn’t entitled to them - that was never related to my race though. 

[Ronnie]

13 hours ago, Rummy said:

Ronnie you remain the fool you always insist on being.

Isn't personal abuse against the forum rules? Can't say I'm surprised it's coming from you. 

13 hours ago, Rummy said:

Can't say I expect less of you though.

Right back at you.

13 hours ago, Rummy said:

Also enjoy YOU being the one who thinks he has the write to decide what black folk may or may not find condescending...rather than letting them tell you themselves...

Unfortunately I don't have a the phone numbers of every black person in the world for them to tell me themselves. All I can do is suggest arguments (not tell) as part of a debate, on a message board, meant for discussion and to be a talking point. Who'd have thought. 

From my own personal experience if someone started a "give some money to businesses run by gay people, they could use the extra help" I would feel patronised. I'm not one of these people who likes to be treated as different and special, but I guess some do.

13 hours ago, Rummy said:

So I think on that front here with you I am done.

I'll try and sleep easily tonight.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Ronnie