The Santa Fallacy and its Hazardous Effects on the Minds of Youth

[Ellmeister]

I went to my cousin's today and I genuinely enjoyed pretending Santa was real. Although I always took ages thinking about what I was going to say in case they realise I'm talking rubbish.

 

It brings them so much joy to think that they will be rewarded for being good, I don't see why it should turn into a boring present receiving fest as opposed to something "magical" whilst they are young.

[EEVILMURRAY]

They can play with their batcaves, and their yugioh cards and their power ranger costumes and everything they want. But they will know I got them the presents a Christmas, and it wasn't some stupid old man.

How will you cope with other parents living the lie?

 

You'd have to train your kid to deal with this.

Diageo Jnr: Daddy got me a Chaka Khan CD this Christmas.

Other kid: Santa got me one too, why didn't Santa give you one?

Diageo Jnr: Because he isn't real, it's bullshit. Tell everyone else on the playground.

 

There would be many crying 5* year olds at the end of school that day.

 

 

*whatever.

[EddieColeslaw]

How will you cope with other parents living the lie?

 

You'd have to train your kid to deal with this.

Diageo Jnr: Daddy got me a Chaka Khan CD this Christmas.

Other kid: Santa got me one too, why didn't Santa give you one?

Diageo Jnr: Because he isn't real, it's bullshit. Tell everyone else on the playground.

 

There would be many crying 5* year olds at the end of school that day.

 

 

*whatever.

 

Nah, all of the 5 year olds would just shun Diageo Jnr and make him an outcast for spreading 'lies' about Santa not being real :p

[Diageo]

I have to say, I agree with Diageo's sentiment, I just think he's explaining it like a fucktard.

 

 

 

Any evidence I've seen (and, from a social perspective, my experience with people who've been home-schooled) is that it's bad. Very, very bad.

I'm explaining my opinion like a fucktard? How would you explain it?

 

 

And there's many young children that don't believe in Santa when young and go around telling other kids.

[The Mad Monkey]

I think it's a very sad thing that anyone thinks a child doesn't deserve some fantasy in their life. Real life can be hard for a lot of adults, let alone small kids, let them have their buffer zone before they have to deal with the grim reality of life.

[Paj!]

The reality of Christmas really just being a random exercise in spending money on others for no reason that occurs every year becomes clear soon enough in one's life - let children think it's magical for a little while.

[Diageo]

Are you blind?

 

This is not about fantasy, it's about Santa Claus.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Hmm, well, in psychology class 4 years ago we studied a statistic that said that kids who wheren't brought up on the idea of santa claus/whatever imaginary thing have a significantly lower percentage of emotional/social failure. Whatever that means.

[EEVILMURRAY]

This is not about fantasy, it's about Santa Claus.

So Santa Claus isn't fantasy? Thus you consider Santa to be real. Works for me.

[Serebii]

So Santa Claus isn't fantasy? Thus you consider Santa to be real. Works for me.

If we believe in him, he will exist!

[Ashley]

I was mulling this over and some counter points that aren't really strung together:

 

Santa isn't all about presents, he's about rewards. Obviously when kids are older they know it isn't real but when you're young, particularly very young, to be told you're told "you'll get presents if you're good" its reassuring when you are good. Yes, you'll actually get them regardless and yes in practice it has its murky grey areas but as a child to have that kind of validation is a big help. Its a whole process of child-rearing am I right? Reassuring/reaffirming good behaviour. Yes, kids aren't always perfect but overall.

 

You speak as if finding out Santa isn't real will turn them into Veronica Mars but for the life of me I can't remember having that much agency when I found out. You're at such a young age that you don't really grasp the whole concept of a societal lie, hell I can't even remember thinking "my parents lied". I possibly asked "did you know he wasn't real?" but I'd suspect my thought process was more "oh, he's not real :(" than "my parents lied to me". I don't think a child will see it as a grand betrayal of their trust and a damnation of society when they find out because I don't think they can think/feel that grand as, unless they're older than average when they find out, they only tend to think on a very personal level.

 

As someone said the parents dressing up thing can help. It makes them feel nice/get joy out of seeing the child happy/surprised/whatever and it can build a bond. Years later they can say "remember when I dressed as Santa and you believed it?" Its one of those family anecdotes you roll your eyes at as an adult but it can help build a bond I believe. My father never did anything of the sort and while I don't think it alone would have made us closer it would have been nice to see he made some effort into making us happy. Whereas my granddad used to and that story tends to get trotted out at Christmas. Its a nice Christmas memory.

 

Furthermore you're speaking as if you have complete control. I was reading a study a while ago and a woman said she wanted to not introduce her kids to Disney at all for whatever reasons but she just simply couldn't. Between the Disney learning materials at school, their friends exchanging VHS tapes and their cousins wearing Mickey jumpers etc they were made aware of it. Its similar with Santa. You could tell them that its not real at a young age but at this time of year do you really think a young child wouldn't still believe its real because they see it a lot? I don't know that much about child psychology but is it not possible that the mere overwhelming visual presence of santa will confirm that he's real in a child's mind at a young age? Also, you're acting as if you're the sole parent. What if the mother of the children want to let them believe? Wouldn't it be better to indulge them in a little white lie than a bitter black argument?

 

Aaaaaand I'm sure I had something else to say but I forget ^_^

[Diageo]

You people have to be inventing things I say in your minds, because I just can't understand how you can come up with those things.

 

I never once said kids get angry when they find out. I said I don't want to actively lie to them.

 

I never said I had control over the fact they believe in Santa Claus. I said I would tell them I got them the presents, and of course wouldn't put his name on the presents or tell them to put out cookies.

 

I don't see where you people get that I hate fantasy. That I will somehow prevent them from ever watching christmas films or anything like that.

 

 

So Santa Claus isn't fantasy? Thus you consider Santa to be real. Works for me.

Oh yes, that's exactly what I said.

[Eddage]

So are you just never gonna lie to your kids?

 

If that's the plan then it's not going to happen, you'll eventually lie to them about something, whether you mean to or not, so you might as well embrace some of the better/fun lies...

[Diageo]

Oh I can lie to them all I want. I'm not doing it about Santa Claus though.

 

When I said I don't want to actively lie to them, I meant about Santa Claus. Because I don't want to lie to make my children believe in something. I may lie for other reasons, but not to make them believe in Santa Claus or any other fictitious character.

[Eddage]

So basically the only way to earn your kids love is by telling them you bought them all their presents?

 

Or you're just selfish and don't want to forfeit the credit of buying the presents so that your kids can have a bit of extra fun at Christmas?

[Diageo]

It's not the only way to get their love.

 

You say it's extra fun. I don't think it is. They'll have extra fun with their family. Instead of normal fun with Santa Claus. I'm not going to forfeit credit to fiction because I find that idiotic, distracting, undermining and unproductive. If you think it's selfish then fine.

 

What about when my child comes over to me and says,

 

"Daddy, how come Jimmy got a Playstation 7 and 12 games from Santa even though he's a big meanie and always bullying people?"

What do I say then? He obviously got it because his parents are richer. Does Santa only give good presents to the rich and bad presents to the poor?

[Retro_Link]

Fundamentally I just can't believe you're going to take away a part of the fun and magic of your kids childhoods, just to satisfy your own selfish nonsensical views!

[Diageo]

Fundamentally, I'm not taking fun away from them for my selfish beliefs. They have sense. You just disagree with them.

 

I like this guy's article.

 

Problems with the Santa Claus Myth:

 

Although Santa Claus was originally based upon the Christian figure of Saint Nicholas, a patron saint of children, today Santa Claus is wholly secular. Some Christians object to him because he is secular rather than Christian; some non-Christians object to him because of his Christian roots. He is a powerful cultural symbol which is impossible to ignore, but this doesn’t mean that he should simply be accepted without question. There are good reasons to dispense with the tradition.

Parents Have to Lie About Santa Claus:

 

Perhaps the most serious objection to perpetuating belief in Santa Claus among children is also the simplest: in order to do so, parents have to lie to their children. You can’t encourage the belief without dishonesty, and it’s not a “little white lie” that is for their own good or that might protect them from harm. Parents should not persistently lie to children without overwhelmingly good reasons, so this puts supporters of the Santa Claus myth on the defensive.

Parents’ Lies About Santa Claus Have to Grow:

 

In order to get kids to believe in Santa Claus, it’s not enough to commit a couple of simple lies and move on. As with any lie, it’s necessary to construct more and more elaborate lies and defenses as time passes. Skeptical questions about Santa must be met with detailed lies about Santa’s powers. “Evidence” of Santa Claus must be created once mere stories of Santa prove insufficient. It’s unethical for parents to perpetuate elaborate deceptions on children unless it’s for a greater good.

Santa Claus Lies Discourage Healthy Skepticism:

 

Most children eventually become skeptical about Santa Claus and ask questions about him, for example how he could possibly travel around the whole world in such a short period of time. Instead of encouraging this skepticism and helping children come to a reasonable conclusion about whether Santa Claus is even possible, much less real, most parents discourage skepticism by telling tales about Santa’s supernatural powers.

The Reward & Punishment System of Santa Claus is Unjust:

 

There are a number of aspects to the whole Santa Claus “system” which children shouldn’t learn to internalize. It implies that the whole person can be judged as naughty or nice based upon a few acts. It requires belief that someone is constantly watching you, no matter what you are doing. It is based upon the premise that one should do good for the sake of reward and avoid doing wrong out of fear of punishment. It allows parents to try to control children via a powerful stranger.

The Santa Claus Myth Promotes Materialism:

 

The entire Santa Claus myth is based on the idea of children getting gifts. There’s nothing wrong with getting gifts, but Santa Claus makes it the focus on the entire holiday. Children are encouraged to conform their behavior to parental expectation in order to receive ever more presents rather than simply lumps of coal. In order to make Christmas lists, kids pay close attention to what advertisers tell them they should want, effectively encouraging unbridled consumerism.

 

The Santa Claus “Tradition” is Relatively Recent:

 

Some might think that because Santa Claus is such an old tradition, this alone is sufficient reason to continue it. They were taught to believe in Santa as children, so why not pass this along to their own? The role of Santa Claus in Christmas celebration is actually quite recent — the mid to late 19th century. The importance of Santa Claus is a creation of cultural elites and perpetuated by business interests and simple cultural momentum. It has little to no inherent value.

Santa Claus is More About Parents than Children:

 

Parental investment in Santa Claus is far larger than anything kids do, suggesting that parents’ defense of the Santa Claus myth is more about what they want than about what kids want. Their own memories about enjoying Santa may be heavily influenced by cultural assumptions about what they should have experienced. Is it not possible that kids would find at least as much pleasure in knowing that parents are responsible for Christmas, not a supernatural stranger?

 

Found here.

 

You think you know all because you enjoyed it so much. But you don't take into account that your memories are viewed through rose tinted glasses and perpetuated by cultural norms that Santa Claus is a magical time of a child's life. You think your own experiences speak for all children and because you came out well every one does and there could be nothing wrong with Santa Claus himself. You're stuck in a cultural whirlpool of self-deception.

 

See I can get personal too.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Diageo
Automerged Doublepost

[Paj!]

The importance of Santa Claus is a creation of cultural elites and perpetuated by business interests and simple cultural momentum. It has little to no inherent value.

 

Oh of course! Chidren need to hear about this! What an outrage! Children around the globe will abandon Christmas after this revelation breaks out! They'll be really annoyed at the social elite and Coca-Cola for creating this development-stunting demon in 'Santa Claus"! BASTARDS! The children will surely rise up, realising that the current experience of "Christmas" by the western world is in fact a blight on society and a terrible deception, and they would grow up far better without it.

 

Children don't give a shit, Diageo.

 

See I can get personal too.

 

[Ramar]

I never said I had control over the fact they believe in Santa Claus. I said I would tell them I got them the presents, and of course wouldn't put his name on the presents or tell them to put out cookies.

 

You know, some parents (ie. mine). Put a few presents as from Santa, then put few from them. So whilst I was happy Santa had been, my parents were still getting active recognition for their efforts at the same time.

 

I say this because basically what I'm getting from your whole argument is that you want all the recognition. By not 'lying' to them you get all the praise.

[Mundi]

You think you know all because you enjoyed it so much. But you don't take into account that your memories are viewed through rose tinted glasses and perpetuated by cultural norms that Santa Claus is a magical time of a child's life. You think your own experiences speak for all children and because you came out well every one does and there could be nothing wrong with Santa Claus himself. You're stuck in a cultural whirlpool of self-deception.

 

See I can get personal too.

 

So your saying that EVERYONE here is looking at Santa Clause trough rose tinted glasses and their experience of it is muddled by that.

 

Using your own logic from the many threads you argued about music, if everyone says they had a good experience from it, is it not a good thing?

 

I can't say much when it comes to Santa Clause because his presence where I live is very limited and I don't feel any more or less damaged from the experience when I talk to foreigners where the presence of a Santa Clause is much stronger.

 

The only time I have heard or seen any negative consequences about finding out that Santa Clause is not real is in fiction

 

I believe the damage is next to none because when children are younger they are selfish.

As long as the gifts keeps coming, in the end they will not care.

[Diageo]

Oh of course! Chidren need to hear about this! What an outrage! Children around the globe will abandon Christmas after this revelation breaks out! They'll be really annoyed at the social elite and Coca-Cola for creating this development-stunting demon in 'Santa Claus"! BASTARDS! The children will surely rise up, realising that the current experience of "Christmas" by the western world is in fact a blight on society and a terrible deception, and they would grow up far better without it.

 

Children don't give a shit, Diageo.

 

 

 

Children don't give a shit that large consumption of fast food and sweets is bad for them. Does that mean I should let them eat all they want.

No. Don't be stupid.

 

You know, some parents (ie. mine). Put a few presents as from Santa, then put few from them. So whilst I was happy Santa had been, my parents were still getting active recognition for their efforts at the same time.

 

I say this because basically what I'm getting from your whole argument is that you want all the recognition. By not 'lying' to them you get all the praise.

Sure, ignore everything else I said and focus on that one fact. It's not only about me getting recognition, it's about much more than that.

[Ramar]

Children don't give a shit that large consumption of fast food and sweets is bad for them. Does that mean I should let them eat all they want.

No. Don't be stupid.

 

Harmless Christmas fun =/= potentially life damaging shitty food.

[Diageo]

So your saying that EVERYONE here is looking at Santa Clause trough rose tinted glasses and their experience of it is muddled by that.

 

Using your own logic from the many threads you argued about music, if everyone says they had a good experience from it, is it not a good thing?

 

I can't say much when it comes to Santa Clause because his presence where I live is very limited and I don't feel any more or less damaged from the experience when I talk to foreigners where the presence of a Santa Clause is much stronger.

 

The only time I have heard or seen any negative consequences about finding out that Santa Clause is not real is in fiction

 

I believe the damage is next to none because when children are younger they are selfish.

As long as the gifts keeps coming, in the end they will not care.

I was talking to retro_link.

 

I don't believe it's the same thing. This is nothing like saying music is good because you like it. This is about a deeper meaning with bigger repercussions. Just because in your opinion, no one is affected by Santa Claus, I believe they are. Maybe not dramatically, but in an extent I don't want for my children.

 

Harmless Christmas fun =/= potentially life damaging shitty food.

I don't think it's harmless, do you not get that. And they don't have to be the same because that was not the point. He was saying that children know what is good for them.

[heroicjanitor]

So your saying that EVERYONE here is looking at Santa Clause trough rose tinted glasses and their experience of it is muddled by that.

 

Using your own logic from the many threads you argued about music, if everyone says they had a good experience from it, is it not a good thing?

 

But the people saying music is good are mature enough to know they like it, they aren't told to. He's saying children shouldn't be told things which are false since they are too young to make their own decision. It's almost a religion-like argument, but Santa isn't a religion.

 

I don't think Santa does any harm, I think he brightens up Christmas and makes it a special time, rather than a birthday-like experience. I believe this from my own experiences.

 

Diageo is saying he thinks it's potentially harmful to fill his child's head with these lies. So if you are going to argue with him argue with that. Diageo what harmful effects do you think it will have?