Collateral Murder

[danny]

And I still don't understand why the fuck they shot the van. Seriously, isn't "shooting the medic" the most dishonourable action a soldier can make?

 

As i have said above you dont shoot medics if you know the other side wont shoot your medics. Out there do yu think they gve a fuck about medics or the geniva convention. The rule most soldiers go for out there is make sure the enemy isnt breathing any more. Because thats exactly how they feel about us. Before deploying we are told count your rounds and alays make sure you have one round left. Bassically dont let yourself be taken alive. Because being taken alive be these people is a fate worse than death. These people dont have the same values as say the Germans did, or Argentinians did etc.

 

Even if they were a group of armed insurgents, do you really thin they're going to engage a helicopter they probably can't see well over a kilometre away over a large city which probably has dozens of helicopters going over it every day with small arms and an old RPG?

 

One of the most irritating thing about this whole outcry is that people seem to be almost under the impression that the pilots, like them, were watching this through a nice big laptop screen with nothing else to focus one. Watch it again with the video at normal Youtube size with your screen at an arm's reach, whilst bearing in mind that no one wants to have their name under the headline "armed terrorists allowed to wonder down street whilst being ignored by attack chopper pilots as they mistake Kalashnikov for camera".

 

I'm not saying what was done was right, I'm just saying you people need to think more carefully about what actually happened.

 

As for what was said, "Good Shooting" is a general phrase for when shooting is accurate, and doesn't mean, as some elements of the media would have you believe, "wow, that was great watching you shoot those people!", and everything else was a combination of the pilots believing they'd just engaged insurgents and the general, US military-wide problem of thinking you're in your own action film - a trait anyone who's watched any of the films done by people inbedded with US Marines will have noticed.

 

You are the voice of reason as always.

[MoogleViper]

An absolute fucking disgrace. I thought we were meant to be the good guys. Alright, maybe you might very possibly mistake a camera for a gun, but not one shot was fired at the helicopter. If it ended there I might be able to go fair enough they made a mistake. But then to focus on a wounded person crawling along a pavement and be willing him to pick up a weapon so as you'd have an excuse to shoot him some more is sickening. Then it goes even further; shooting people who are of no immediate threat to yourself while they try to help a seriously injured person...disgusting. Just to put icing on the cake they then have a good old laugh at the fact one of people they just killed gets run over by a tank showing no remorse at all and shrug off injuring two kids as being their fault for bringing them to a "battle".

 

No matter what your opinion on the war as a whole I can't believe anyone could find anything honourable or justified in these actions.

 

I agree with this basically. Yes mistakes can be made and people would be complaining if the pilots had let them go and then the terrorists went on to kill our soldiers. But the fact that he was aching to shoot them and seemed to enjoy it so much was terrible. It takes away any of his credibility and makes it hard to chalk it up to a mistake.

 

Yes people have to die in a war but soldiers shouldn't enjoy killing these people. They certainly shouldn't be wanting to kill somebody for no real reason.

[dwarf]

Shit be fucked up. Sick video. Its not a game.

 

 

Even I like a joke, but come on man.

 

 

 

Get it....come....

x 10

[Fresh]

Shocking.

 

Just saw this on the late news. How people can think, do and say such things is beyond me. While I know these kind of actions are not entirely new it does make be wonder what must go unreported.

[Jonnas]

One of the most irritating thing about this whole outcry is that people seem to be almost under the impression that the pilots, like them, were watching this through a nice big laptop screen with nothing else to focus one. Watch it again with the video at normal Youtube size with your screen at an arm's reach, whilst bearing in mind that no one wants to have their name under the headline "armed terrorists allowed to wonder down street whilst being ignored by attack chopper pilots as they mistake Kalashnikov for camera".

 

I'm not saying what was done was right, I'm just saying you people need to think more carefully about what actually happened.

 

I realize that, and I have given them the benefit of the doubt during the whole thing (especially since I didn't know what RPGs were before Emasher posted that image. And even after I did, I can see where they may have "seen" it), but it sounds like they could've at least avoided shooting at the van. The fact they were trigger-happy just makes things worse.

 

It's been seen that insurgents will collect weapons from sites of attacks on their forces, and it also means denying them a somewhat precious form of transport. Oh, and they, y'know, set up double bombs to injure people with one, then kill those who come to their aid with the second.

 

While this may be a valid point, like weeyellowbloke said, the van was about to leave when they got permission to shoot. Their recklessness lead them to a huge mistake, there's no doubt about it.

 

This whole thing reminds me very much of the Stockwell Station incident - everything I have seen points to the case having been that the people "on the ground" (as it were) did precisely the right thing, and if people higher up the chain of command had done things properly, then the people on the ground would at worst be just doing their job, and at best be heroes.

 

The incident where the British police shot a Brazillian immigrant? This sounds more like the opposite. The men at the helicopter made a big mistake, while the people higher up trusted in their judgement.

 

As i have said above you dont shoot medics if you know the other side wont shoot your medics. Out there do yu think they gve a fuck about medics or the geniva convention. The rule most soldiers go for out there is make sure the enemy isnt breathing any more. Because thats exactly how they feel about us. Before deploying we are told count your rounds and alays make sure you have one round left. Bassically dont let yourself be taken alive. Because being taken alive be these people is a fate worse than death. These people dont have the same values as say the Germans did, or Argentinians did etc.

 

Come on, that's not a valid excuse. If the enemy has no problem shooting your medics, that doesn't give you the right to do the same. It's one thing to be ruthless, and it's another one to act like the people whose morals you so despise.

 

Though The fish did make a good point about that issue.

[danny]

Come on, that's not a valid excuse. If the enemy has no problem shooting your medics, that doesn't give you the right to do the same. It's one thing to be ruthless, and it's another one to act like the people whose morals you so despise.

 

Im sorry but it is an excuse. Our medics were not traditionaly armed with anything except a pistol so they could only defend themselves and there patient. But due to enemy actions (not ours) ths i no longer the case. In the past our medics used to wear the geniva cross. Also this is no longer the case as they will then aim for that person more than anyone else knowing tat once there dead its easier to kill others. Unless they had there hands up or had dropped there weapons and were runing away (realy enemy not civis this is) then all is fair in my eyes.

If prisoners are taken then they should get every right the law allows them. I dont agree with anyone being tortured. But i think a few saps at the time of capture can normally be forgiven as emotions boiling over.

Just remember its very easy to sit behind your screena nd say what should happen. Its very different on thegroud in 40 degree heat carrying your own weight in kit when people are shooing at you and sending chilren armed with explosives to kill you.

[flameboy]

well I'm kinda glad this made it out there...I read wiki-leaks regularly and known that this stuff was on its way for a while. so glad its come for what it exposes.

[Nintendohnut]

I feel slightly sick having watched that, but I'm glad I did. The part that was most harrowing was when the men came to try and save the photographer's life in the van, and they were just so eager to shoot it. Why? Why would it matter if one single man was driven away? Even if he was attacking them, which he wasn't, one man would make barely any difference. They could have let him live, but they were so eager to get permission to kill him.

 

The ridiculous thing is this is actually sickening. These people are ending innocent lives. It doesn't matter that they didn't know it at the time. It doesn't matter that they thought they were being attacked. They are killing people who have done nothing wrong, and who don't deserve to die.

 

 

Just one final thing - danny, I don't think people on here will ever see eye-to-eye with you on topics such as this. That isn't a criticism, as your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's. But don't constantly try to persuade people you're right; the thing I find most frustrating is the way that you always tell us that we don't know what it's like in situations like this. The policeman story: you told us that you'd been in a similar situation/you'd be trained in this, this story: we don't know what it's like on the streets of Afghanistan. Well no, of course we don't. But what I do know for damn sure is that killing an innocent civilian is unacceptable and indefensible, and the fact that this was covered up is, frankly, disgusting. It makes you wonder what else has been covered up in the past.

 

Again, this is just my opinion, and I'm sure it will be disagreed with by some but personally I felt genuinely sick watching the video. Perhaps it should be removed, perhaps it shouldn't. Free speech and all that.

[jayseven]

(no life is innocent)

[Ten10]

It doesn't surprise me that this sort of attitude toward engagement has trickled down to their county police forces. Americans have always been trigger happy.

 

They invented "friendly fire" after all, even firing and blowing us up to oblivion. If only life came with a big X and disabled the trigger then perhaps we wouldn't have situations like this where some sadist guns down a few bystanders.

 

Can't say I like the idea of a country like America being the world's super power. And that is a statement I don't think is debatable.

[jayseven]

Which country should be the superpower? There will always be (at least) one while we live on as a divided species.

[Rummy]

I've only just seen this video. I'd like to think I understand war, and I'd understand this video and how it came about, but what upsets me most about it is knowing that it's a war that WE pushed upon THEM, and that our countries are still there fighting it for whatever goddamn reason they deem good enough, and I can't see any reason good enough for shit like this to have to happen.

[Emasher]

One thing people seem to have forgotten quickly is the Gulf War. Saddam did at that point have Weapons of Mass destruction, and they were taken away from him after the war was won. But there was nothing saying they were all confiscated, or that he wasn't making new ones. While there was what was called a misinterpretation of intelligence on the American point, you have to look at it form both sides.

[Daft]

Couldn't have sorted it out the first time rather than doing an apparently half arsed job?

[Emasher]

The only way to have really sorted it out would probably have been to remove Saddam back then. I'm not really sure why they didn't do that, but I don't have that good a knowledge of the politics of the gulf war.

[Daft]

Yeah, it was partly rhetorical. They should have sorted everything else out the first time but everyone knows this war wasn't about removing a dictator from power or WMDs otherwise it would have been sorted in the first place and why we'd be in North Korea now (You know, having a dictator and getting closer and closer, if not already in possession of, actual WMDs).

[Emasher]

In all honesty, I think its much more likely that the US invades Iran before North Korea. Several American bunker busters have been moved to a british controlled island in the north Indian Ocean. Unless they've found a an Al-Qaeda bunker or something like that, and are getting ready to take it out, I can't see them using them in the wars they're currently fighting. I'm actually curious if one of the reasons for going into Iraq in the first place was to get US troops on either side of Iran in case they had to invade them.

 

But now I'm just speculating.

[Kirkatronics]

This is my oppinion on the video.

I can understand the initial attacks, especially with them thinking they had RPGs.

The attack on the van wasn't justified at all, there was no reason to fire.

 

EDIT: Also, the part where it points out the kids is just making them out to be worse than they are.

They didn't know there were any children, otherwise they would have stated it.