The big filesharing debate

[Ten10]

Technically speaking, and I'll tread lightly in case someone feels the need to blow my head off. Every time you watch or listen to something on youtube your browser is downloading a COPY to your browser's cache. That is why more often than not any content you've already seen is still viewable when your browser is working offline. As a proof of concept firefox users can type about:cache in their browser address bar and then list disk cache device. Then it would simply be a case of finding the said .tmp file and changing the extension to .flv

 

Edited September 28, 2009 by Ten10

[danny]

Technically

 

Technically being the key word. Yes it does download but its not really the same as 'downloading' torrents.

[Ten10]

Technically being the key word. Yes it does download but its not really the same as 'downloading' torrents.

 

Although it may not be the same as downloading a torrent, the concept remains the same. Taking a copy of a file and storing it for your own use. Although it may not be intentional this is how it works.

 

Then it comes down to where do we draw the line, because instead of downloading music using torrents you could just go on you tube and convert the file to mp3. Artist still isn't getting any money as they've already been paid anyway. And the fact that you were listening to the file on youtube in the first place means you probably never had any intention of buying it either.

 

I know a few young people who due to their limited knowledge just use the recording function of their phones to record the music they listen to off youtube and MTV. Maybe we should prosecute them too. Since they haven't paid for their copy of the music either. I Think the most ridiculous thing about the whole file sharing debate is the fines and sentences. More value is put on a stinking .mp3 data file consisting of 1's and 0's than say a person's life.

 

Throwing this into the mix: http://www.prefixmag.com/news/seven-crimes-that-will-get-you-a-smaller-fine-than/32033/

I think my fav is no. 2 where it would be cheaper to steal the actual CD and get caught than have the RIAA on your ass.

[Emasher]

Personally, I'm strongly against piracy.

 

Most people (especially kids) don't understand that its wrong to download a file you haven't paid for. And there isn't a way of solving that problem without creating at least 10 more worse ones.

 

The main problem is the system itself. For music anyway. Perhaps the record companies have to start allowing free downloads, and making their money from advertisements and things like that. They might not make 99 cents per song, but they might make a bit more than they are, as long as people downloaded from the official sites. And they could charge something for higher quality files and stuff like that. Making money through advertising has seemed to work with TV shows, although, that industry has always made their money through adds.

 

At the end of the day, as long as the artists are making money off of you getting entertained by their work, that's what matters.

[Raining_again]

The thing is no matter what the government does, piracy is here, and its not gonna leave. Whether it be in the market stalls, copying your mates CD, or downloading off the web. Its here to stay.

 

I don't see that much of an issue downloading music. I have done, but its once in a blue moon. I do download a lot of anime (and to be honest I'm not actually sure of the full legalities)

 

Its like the same as the alcohol issues (in this country especially) you can ban cheap booze, you can slap more tax on, you can outlaw it completely, but people will still drink, and still become alcoholics.

[Wesley]

SNIP

 

You're right about most what you're saying, but all this demonstrates is that there needs to be a system in place that isn't this black and white: If you copy this file you go to jail.

 

But here's my few thoughts:

 

Although it may not be the same as downloading a torrent, the concept remains the same. Taking a copy of a file and storing it for your own use. Although it may not be intentional this is how it works.

 

The concept is the same except the source of the torrent provides no income for the artist, where the other source (YouTube) does. Also, the last sentence really invalidates the argument in my opinion: "intentional".

 

And the fact that you were listening to the file on youtube in the first place means you probably never had any intention of buying it either.

 

This is a huge jump you're making...

 

More value is put on a stinking .mp3 data file consisting of 1's and 0's than say a person's life.

 

I don't think anyone really thinks that. But the problem is that you can use that argument for everything. Really an item in a shop that I'm about to steal consists of molecules and atoms, I can't believe you're placing them higher than my life! I'm awaiting some science person to explain that molecules and atoms don't mean that.

 

Throwing this into the mix: http://www.prefixmag.com/news/seven-crimes-that-will-get-you-a-smaller-fine-than/32033/

I think my fav is no. 2 where it would be cheaper to steal the actual CD and get caught than have the RIAA on your ass.

 

Well there are a lot of laws in this country that don't always compare well. You hear on the news all the time how someone who goes down for being a kiddy-lover gets less than this person, and who got more than that person, etc. When laws are made they aren't simply compared with others. I'm sure the law will change, especially as time and attitude change. But, also, do remember that these fines aren't just automatic, there still are judges involved.

[danny]

More value is put on a stinking .mp3 data file consisting of 1's and 0's than say a person's life.

 

But that could be said for anything. If i went and stole a car more value is put on a load of nuts and bolts than my life.

I just dont see how people can justify it to be any different to stealing anything else. (i dont buy in to this whole not a physical thing crap.)

[Sanchez]

I pay £10 a month for access to Spotify and I would stop pirating completely if I could access it on my phone (coming soon) and 360 and if it had even more selection. I'm a huge pirate but I still buy CD's that I really like and go to gigs from my favourite bands.

 

Personally I believe file sharing helps artists more than it hurts them. The artists that complain about file sharing are generally the talentless hacks and the most popular. Pirates generally have a much more diverse and elitist taste and their filesharing goes a long way to help smaller, talented bands. Many upcoming artists use filesharing networks (which are generally full of music lovers) for publicity now.

 

Ultimately file sharing isn't something you can stop, and the music industry would be better off adapting with services like spotify. Punishing pirates (who studies have shown often spend the most on music) is only hurting themselves.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Sanchez

[Goafer]

I'm a huge pirate

 

[Ten10]

But that could be said for anything. If i went and stole a car more value is put on a load of nuts and bolts than my life.

I just dont see how people can justify it to be any different to stealing anything else. (i dont buy in to this whole not a physical thing crap.)

 

I'm not trying to justify the act of stealing. I just think in terms of the law for certain things the priority is somewhat off balance. Where would someone get the $2 million to pay a fine. I doubt that the artists will see any of it should she ever get round to paying a sizeable amount.

 

Its not like she made millions from building up an illegal empire. I would understand these fines and jail sentences if she were a drug baron. It just seems as if the legal system has piracy out of perspective with all the other crimes that go on in our world.

[Nicktendo]

I am without a doubt that this logic would stand up in court. I'm off to steal a Ferrari.

 

 

On a side note: Welcome to capitalism. I believe that answers your question.

 

Excuse me for playing by the rules of a system which has been forced upon me and in which I am tricked into thinking I am free. I'd better stop thinking for myself and play by the rules before the 'man' comes and locks me up... Of course I'm not going to steal a Ferrari, mainly because I don't want or need a Ferrari (neither do I want to defeat the object of a vehichle, a box with wheels that gets the subject from A to B, to double-up as status symbol to make up for my lack of personality/manhood). I just choose to distribute my limited income fairly to the people I feel deserve it more. If you actually read what I said previously- I give the bands that I like MORE support buy not buying their CD and cutting out the useless middle-man, another 'great' effect of capitalism.

 

In esscene I do not believe it is stealing, and there is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. Without the Internet I wouldn't have discovered 90% of the bands I enjoy listening to (a great deal of whom promote illegal downloads), hence not attending their shows, buying their products and financially supporting them. Freedom of information is one of the greatest things the Internet has brought us and typical right-wing types with thier assortment of censorship and greed hats on want to take that away from the vast majority so that John P. Middleman who works in advertising for a large record company gets a 'fair deal' instead of contributing something productive to society. All he does is thinks of ways to sell the masses the next James Blunt record.

 

It's this simple: There is a music revolution going on right now. There are far too many people illegally downloading music for anyone to stop them all, and if they do the people will simply find another way. It's up to the music industry to embrace it. Music has been overpriced for far too long so that needless profits can line the pockets of the people who don't care and don't matter. Sure, capitalism has been imposed on me and countless other people, but when people realise how flawed it is, they change it from the ground up and there is nothing that the people at the top can do, because the people at the bottom are to many.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Nicktendo

[Happenstance]

Excuse me for playing by the rules of a system which has been forced upon me and in which I am tricked into thinking I am free. I'd better stop thinking for myself and play by the rules before the 'man' comes and locks me up... Of course I'm not going to steal a Ferrari, mainly because I don't want or need a Ferrari (neither do I want to defeat the object of a vehichle, a box with wheels that gets the subject from A to B, to double-up as status symbol to make up for my lack of personality/manhood). I just choose to distribute my limited income fairly to the people I feel deserve it more. If you actually read what I said previously- I give the bands that I like MORE support buy not buying their CD and cutting out the useless middle-man, another 'great' effect of capitalism.

 

In esscene I do not believe it is stealing, and there is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. Without the Internet I wouldn't have discovered 90% of the bands I enjoy listening to (a great deal of whom promote illegal downloads), hence not attending their shows, buying their products and financially supporting them. Freedom of information is one of the greatest things the Internet has brought us and typical right-wing types with thier assortment of censorship and greed hats on want to take that away from the vast majority so that John P. Middleman who works in advertising for a large record company gets a 'fair deal' instead of contributing something productive to society. All he does is thinks of ways to sell the masses the next James Blunt record.

 

It's this simple: There is a music revolution going on right now. There are far too many people illegally downloading music for anyone to stop them all, and if they do the people will simply find another way. It's up to the music industry to embrace it. Music has been overpriced for far too long so that needless profits can line the pockets of the people who don't care and don't matter. Sure, capitalism has been imposed on me and countless other people, but when people realise how flawed it is, they change it from the ground up and there is nothing that the people at the top can do, because the people at the bottom are to many.

 

Im really enjoying reading your posts, they make me chuckle

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Well, Diageo, if we had a cloning machine, we could clone all the bread we want and give it to the poor. Though with the egoistic, capitalistic minds of modern day society, they'd quickly use the cloning machine to screw everyone up even more badly for their own personal gain.

 

Isn't watching or listening to something on YouTube just as illegal, provided the copyright-holders didn't put it up themselves?

[Mr_Odwin]

Mixtapes? Just as illegal, but we all love them, and have made them, yeah?

 

Buying a second hand CD off eBay? Why not just pirate. The artist doesn't get a cut this time!

 

Money saved by pirating music? Do we all hoard it thinking "ha ha now I'm rich!" or does it go to other entertainment industries?

[danny]

I'm not trying to justify the act of stealing. I just think in terms of the law for certain things the priority is somewhat off balance. Where would someone get the $2 million to pay a fine. I doubt that the artists will see any of it should she ever get round to paying a sizeable amount.

 

Its not like she made millions from building up an illegal empire. I would understand these fines and jail sentences if she were a drug baron. It just seems as if the legal system has piracy out of perspective with all the other crimes that go on in our world.

 

Yeah i will give you that. The sentances i have seen in the press have seemed totally slanted when compared to many other crimes. But then i think many crimes arnt punished anywhere near enough. But yes unless people were burning these cds and selling them at a large profit the fines imposed do seem excessive.

 

Excuse me for playing by the rules of a system which has been forced upon me and in which I am tricked into thinking I am free. I'd better stop thinking for myself and play by the rules before the 'man' comes and locks me up... Of course I'm not going to steal a Ferrari, mainly because I don't want or need a Ferrari (neither do I want to defeat the object of a vehichle, a box with wheels that gets the subject from A to B, to double-up as status symbol to make up for my lack of personality/manhood). I just choose to distribute my limited income fairly to the people I feel deserve it more. If you actually read what I said previously- I give the bands that I like MORE support buy not buying their CD and cutting out the useless middle-man, another 'great' effect of capitalism.

 

In esscene I do not believe it is stealing, and there is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. Without the Internet I wouldn't have discovered 90% of the bands I enjoy listening to (a great deal of whom promote illegal downloads), hence not attending their shows, buying their products and financially supporting them. Freedom of information is one of the greatest things the Internet has brought us and typical right-wing types with thier assortment of censorship and greed hats on want to take that away from the vast majority so that John P. Middleman who works in advertising for a large record company gets a 'fair deal' instead of contributing something productive to society. All he does is thinks of ways to sell the masses the next James Blunt record.

 

It's this simple: There is a music revolution going on right now. There are far too many people illegally downloading music for anyone to stop them all, and if they do the people will simply find another way. It's up to the music industry to embrace it. Music has been overpriced for far too long so that needless profits can line the pockets of the people who don't care and don't matter. Sure, capitalism has been imposed on me and countless other people, but when people realise how flawed it is, they change it from the ground up and there is nothing that the people at the top can do, because the people at the bottom are to many.

 

My bold your not playing by the rules thats the point. The rules are simple what you are doing is illegal dont kid yourself its anything else.

Your posts make me laugh to so filled with hope for the wide world. You just havent had it crushed out of you yet. There is time though.

Capitalism isnt imposed on you. You are free to go to a non capitalist country thats one of the perks of this freedom you are talking about.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Mixtapes? Just as illegal, but we all love them, and have made them, yeah?

 

Buying a second hand CD off eBay? Why not just pirate. The artist doesn't get a cut this time!

 

Money saved by pirating music? Do we all hoard it thinking "ha ha now I'm rich!" or does it go to other entertainment industries?

Hang on, buying a second hand CD isn't illegal, is it? The ownership of the paid product is simply transferred, hence it's just as legal as me buying a second hand car, right? Or am I missing something?

 

Yeah i will give you that. The sentances i have seen in the press have seemed totally slanted when compared to many other crimes. But then i think many crimes arnt punished anywhere near enough. But yes unless people were burning these cds and selling them at a large profit the fines imposed do seem excessive.

 

 

 

My bold your not playing by the rules thats the point. The rules are simple what you are doing is illegal dont kid yourself its anything else.

Your posts make me laugh to so filled with hope for the wide world. You just havent had it crushed out of you yet. There is time though.

Capitalism isnt imposed on you. You are free to go to a non capitalist country thats one of the perks of this freedom you are talking about.

There is nothing wrong with being a dreamer, is there?

[Nicktendo]

My bold your not playing by the rules thats the point. The rules are simple what you are doing is illegal dont kid yourself its anything else.

 

So if, for example let's say 10% even 5% of the population break these rules (3 million UK citizens). Are they ALL going to get fined/locked up? Who is going to enforce that on so many people... The army?

 

Your posts make me laugh to so filled with hope for the wide world.

Sorry for being a positive person. Maybe we should just invade Iran to shut them up and make them go away? You agree..?

 

You just havent had it crushed out of you yet. There is time though.

Well I'm in my mid 20's now and I'm yet to meet a person intelligent enough to persuade me otherwise. (It doesn't help when people like yourself regularly make spelling and grammar errors. Like, really regularly.) But then, ironically, the nature of capitalism is to crush the spirit of the person, forcing them to submit and fit the mould.

 

Capitalism isnt imposed on you. You are free to go to a non capitalist country thats one of the perks of this freedom you are talking about.

I was born here, therefore for at least 18 years capitalism has been enforced on me. There are no countries on this earth that promote non-totalitarian, non-corrupt, non-capitalist regimes. But as soon as one pops up I'll be sure to look it up, thanks. I'm sure they would let me access music in the way that was best for the artist.

[danny]

Hang on, buying a second hand CD isn't illegal, is it? The ownership of the paid product is simply transferred, hence it's just as legal as me buying a second hand car, right? Or am I missing something?

 

There is nothing wrong with being a dreamer, is there?

 

I dont thin you are missing anything. I think there argument is that they are selling a product and that means it can be sold on again. Although he want saying it was illegal just that the artist didnt get a cut. But they have already had there cut from the cd.

 

No theres nothing wrong with being a dreamer but it just makes me smile. Like awww isnt that cute lol.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

No theres nothing wrong with being a dreamer but it just makes me smile. Like awww isnt that cute lol.

I do find that mildly offending. So we should all just shut up and stay put and accept how things are, no matter how bad? I don't think so.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Well, Diageo, if we had a cloning machine, we could clone all the bread we want and give it to the poor.

That chap Jesus did just that.

 

It's clear proof that the Bible says downloading MP3's is ok.

[danny]

So if, for example let's say 10% even 5% of the population break these rules (3 million UK citizens). Are they ALL going to get fined/locked up? Who is going to enforce that on so many people... The army?

 

 

Sorry for being a positive person. Maybe we should just invade Iran to shut them up and make them go away? You agree..?

 

 

Well I'm in my mid 20's now and I'm yet to meet a person intelligent enough to persuade me otherwise. (It doesn't help when people like yourself regularly make spelling and grammar errors. Like, really regularly.) But then, ironically, the nature of capitalism is to crush the spirit of the person, forcing them to submit and fit the mould.

 

 

I was born here, therefore for at least 18 years capitalism has been enforced on me. There are no countries on this earth that promote non-totalitarian, non-corrupt, non-capitalist regimes. But as soon as one pops up I'll be sure to look it up, thanks. I'm sure they would let me access music in the way that was best for the artist.

 

No i think the army are plenty busy as it is. Infact local councils have been told that they or the armed forces in general are no longer the 4th emergency service.

 

Invade Iran? Youve lost me are the downloading a lot of torrents or something?

 

Yes my spelling and grammer are bad but i dont care, its an internet chatroom. I still earn enough money to be able to buy CDs should i wish to. Which is more than you can by the sounds of it. Theres more to life than spelling and grammer.

 

Well if your in your mid 20s you have around 7 years to have a good look around. There are some non capitalist countrys. Ok they may have some flaws but hey there not capitalist right so that must be a good thing.

[S.C.G]

I do find that mildly offending.

 

I'd class it as being condescending so you've every right to feel offended Imo.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

This topic has veered waaaaay off-course now... I suggest either everything that can be said on the matter has already been uttered and the thread can be locked or we turn this topic back around pretty sharpish and stop with the needless mud-slinging.*

 

*I don't include everyone in this statement but you know what I mean, this kind of thing happens way too often.

 

Theres more to life than spelling and grammer.

 

Evidently...

Edited September 28, 2009 by S.C.G
Automerged Doublepost

[Cube]

Mixtapes? Just as illegal, but we all love them, and have made them, yeah?

 

Ripping a CD onto your computer/mp3 player is also illegal in the UK (until they get around to filing the form that will make it legal...probably when CDs are dead).

[CoolFunkMan]

The point is, filesharing is always going to be there, no matter what anyone does. Yes, I do download music and other media, but that's just because it's so easy, and I don't want to pay unreasonable prices for items.

 

In terms of music though, illegal downloading is technically better for bands as artists. If it wasn't for filesharing, I wouldn't even know of half the bands in my music collection. I do end up buying albums of bands I end up liking a lot, and going to thier gigs, but wouldn't have done without the filesharing networks. If the government were to totally clamp down on this whole issue, it could actually damage the industry moreso, as it'd become harder for the consumer to discover new bands. In reality, the record labels get the majority of the profits in album sales, and the bands get more profits from gigs/merch. Yes, loosing a sale still looses a band money, but only a fraction of what they'd get compared to selling a gig ticket, or t-shirt.

 

Infact, speaking of the whole Lily Allen issue, Matt Bellamy of Muse responded to her blog post (before she got busted.) Yes, I know I'm mentioning Muse again, and I know some peeps here aren't fond of them, but Matt Bellamy makes some really interesting points:

 

Lily

My current opinion is that file sharing is now the norm. This cannot be changed without an attack on perceived civil liberties which will never go down well. The problem is that the ISPs making the extreme profits (due to millions of broadband subscriptions) are not being taxed by the copyright owners correctly and this is a legislation issue. Radio stations and TV stations etc have to pay the copyright owners (both recording and publishing) a fee for using material they do not own. ISPs should have to pay in the same way with a collection agency like PRS doing the monitoring and calculations based on encoded (but freely downloaded) data. Broadband makes the internet essentially the new broadcaster. This is the point which is being missed.

 

Also, usage should have a value. Someone who just checks email uses minimal bandwidth, but someone who downloads 1 gig per day uses way more, but at the moment they pay the same. It is clear which user is hitting the creative industries and it is clear which user is not, so for this reason, usage should also be priced accordingly. The end result will be a taxed, monitored ISP based on usage which will ensure both the freedom of the consumer and the rights of the artists - the loser will be the ISP who will probably have to increase subscription costs to compensate, but the user will have the freedom to choose between checking a few emails (which will cost far less than a current monthly subscription) and downloading tons of music and film (which will cost probably a bit more than current subscription, but not that much more).

 

We should set up a meeting with Lord Mandelson as he is on this issue at the moment, I'm sure he would meet us for breakfast!

 

His points make a lot of sense tbh.

[danny]

Ripping a CD onto your computer/mp3 player is also illegal in the UK (until they get around to filing the form that will make it legal...probably when CDs are dead).

 

Are you sure? I always thaught under the data protection act you were legaly allowed to make one copy of any media you purchased. As long as it was as a back up or a working copy. And that you didnt distrabute or edit the data.