Pestneb Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) Doing an assignment for uni I stumbled upon a site claiming to offer some amazing software for language learning, all for free. I was skeptical at first.. and still am, but I selected a random(ish) language, and have picked up a surprising amount.. considering I was.. slightly influenced by alcohol and sleep deprivation when trying it out, I anticipated poor results. however, the following morning I awoke to thinking "bunâ dimineata" (just realised I ought to explain that is "good morning". weirdly I realised I had remembered everything... also that I was saying good morning to myself. anyway, its possible to make your own lesson sets.. these being a set word/phrase, possibly if appropriate an image, and vocal recording of a native saying the word/phrase since its N-europe, and I presume there are a few languages represented here, I was wondering if a few people here would be interested in a sort of language exchange of sorts.. making lessons for one another on set topics, and then learning languages from each other? I don't know how many people would be up for this at all, but just thought I would put it out there and see what happens. Just thought, putting the web address in would probably count as advertising, so I've just removed it.. but if people are interested I guess I could pm it to them, or admins could give me a green light perhaps... assuming people are interested? since I have permission: http://www.byki.com hopefully it counts as actually being worthwhile. I've read through and it appears making custom lists requires a purchase of the software. I also got the impression you could only practice one language at the time, but I just tested that and nope, I have several now.. although I've heard it is best practice to only learn one new language at a time. Edited April 30, 2009 by Pestneb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Just thought, putting the web address in would probably count as advertising, so I've just removed it.. but if people are interested I guess I could pm it to them, or admins could give me a green light perhaps... assuming people are interested? Presuming its not a personal website and its actually something worthwhile shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Go for it, this is one of my specific interests. I don't believe anything like this will be a substitute for hard graft, but it may well give some people a good start on learning particular languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shino Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 So it teaches pre-made phrases? I don't think that's the best way to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkatronics Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 So it teaches pre-made phrases? I don't think that's the best way to learn. How else can you start? If you just learn words then you cant form correct sentences. Phrases are a good start, then you move onto more complex things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 So it teaches pre-made phrases? I don't think that's the best way to learn. I would agree with this, the most fundamental thing to learning a foreign language is getting a good grasp of the grammar, which I wish the British education system would appreciate. It does depend on whether you actually want to learn the language or just build up a mental phrasebook however, and it's very unlikely that such an activity would do you any harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roostophe Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 If you want to learn a language, it's better to know it thoroughly than to just learn random phrases that could get you through a holiday. It's all well and good if you were to learn how to order a beer in five different languages, but would you know which words in those phrases mean "Could", "I", "Have" "A" "Beer" and "Please"? Chances are: Nah. We all know what each word in "Thank you very much" mean in that phrase and on their own. So, if you were to learn Japanese, wouldn't you say that it's best to know what the words in "Doumo arigatou gozaimasu" mean when you put each of them on their own? I mean, what's 'gozaimasu' when it's at home? This post was partially ripped from some language software I have, except for the last paragraph and this bit. And I'm just trying to come across as knowledgable. I've not even looked at that stuff Pestneb posted yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razz Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 This gives me a chance to curiously peer into Dutch, always wondered what it's like from a linguistic point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 If you want to learn a language, it's better to know it thoroughly than to just learn random phrases that could get you through a holiday. It's all well and good if you were to learn how to order a beer in five different languages, but would you know which words in those phrases mean "Could", "I", "Have" "A" "Beer" and "Please"? Chances are: Nah. We all know what each word in "Thank you very much" mean in that phrase and on their own. So, if you were to learn Japanese, wouldn't you say that it's best to know what the words in "Doumo arigatou gozaimasu" mean when you put each of them on their own? I mean, what's 'gozaimasu' when it's at home? This post was partially ripped from some language software I have, except for the last paragraph and this bit. And I'm just trying to come across as knowledgable. I've not even looked at that stuff Pestneb posted yet. Assuming of course that you should even use all those words, which in many languages you don't have to. Anyway, good luck trying to find a meaning for "gozaimasu" - it means about as much as the word "do" in "I do not." :wink: This gives me a chance to curiously peer into Dutch, always wondered what it's like from a linguistic point of view. As a linguist my professional description of dutch is "like German, but somehow squeakier." :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eenuh Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 As a linguist my professional description of dutch is "like German, but somehow squeakier." :p I find Dutch (or at least Flemish) a lot nicer sounding than German, but I'm probably biased, heh. =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I find Dutch (or at least Flemish) a lot nicer sounding than German, but I'm probably biased, heh. =P Same, but then all such judgements are basically arbitrary. It has very similar syntax to German, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eenuh Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Same, but then all such judgements are basically arbitrary. It has very similar syntax to German, anyway. Oh yeah, it does have quite a few similarities with German, even though I can't speak it and pretty much don't understand it at all. =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Dutch is a lot sexier than it initially sounds or seems. A good friend of mine has a Dutch boyfriend and a few other Dutch friends, and she said to me this one time: "Jim, listen to them speak...it's like they're from another planet." At first, it did sound like Klingon, almost. But, I'm starting to get the hang of it now. Wij sitten op de trein! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 We're sitting on the train? Anyway. I find language acquisiton interesting, but my brain isn't suited for...remembering things. I tend to suck at languages. Where's this link at anyway? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestneb Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) I would agree with this, the most fundamental thing to learning a foreign language is getting a good grasp of the grammar, which I wish the British education system would appreciate. It does depend on whether you actually want to learn the language or just build up a mental phrasebook however, and it's very unlikely that such an activity would do you any harm. Byki has some lists of phrases, but it also has lists of words, which are what I have used so far. I would say the most fundemental thing to learning a foreign language is recognising and reproducing the sounds, no? for most people it is, if not reading, which requires simple word recognition. Grammar comes third for most of us. However, it is important. I shall let byki defend themselves here: byki focuses on "declarative learning," which is learning the words, phrases and other important "language chunks" of your new language. The other big part of language learning is "procedural Learning" which is about the skill of putting all those language chunks together on the fly to make or to understand natural sentences and paragraphs. so no, to develop procedural learning either buy one of their products, or find an alternative is basically what they say. so.. I'm trying out romanian, simply because 1) I have a couple of romanian friends 2) I like its similarities to Latin 3) Its more interesting than italian/portugese/spanish (imo) 4) the verbs get rid of the person. Ie I am = sunt in romanian. no "I". kinda like the french dropping the "je" from "je suis" to make it just "suis". or like us saying "am English" instead of "I am English." I like that. Italian is very tempting as an alternative though... if only because my impression is Italian food > romanian food... We're sitting on the train? Anyway. I find language acquisiton interesting, but my brain isn't suited for...remembering things. I tend to suck at languages. Where's this link at anyway? :p http://www.byki.com Pick French or Spanish on byki, then google free resources.. like podcasts, check wikipedia and google news, obviously in your target language. when you find a word you don't know and can't correctly guess, use babelfish to get a translation, stick it on a flash card. I did that with french, learnt hundreds of words a week. anyway, apparently it takes 30 repetitions for it to stick so :s and then you need to practice.. hence french/spanish probably being a best second language, just because there are plenty of resources to practice with Edited April 30, 2009 by Pestneb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Yeeees! It's one of the only few sentences that I know. I'm getting there. This time next year, I'll be a pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Byki has some lists of phrases, but it also has lists of words, which are what I have used so far.I would say the most fundemental thing to learning a foreign language is recognising and reproducing the sounds, no? for most people it is, if not reading, which requires simple word recognition. Grammar comes third for most of us. This is basically the reason most people never end getting very far with foreign languages. While recognition and pronunciation of words and sounds is undeniably important, grammar is so fundamental to the whole process that without a good grammatical understanding of the language, you won't be able to make any sense out of what you're learning. However, it is important. I shall let byki defend themselves here: byki focuses on "declarative learning," which is learning the words, phrases and other important "language chunks" of your new language. The other big part of language learning is "procedural Learning" which is about the skill of putting all those language chunks together on the fly to make or to understand natural sentences and paragraphs. so no, to develop procedural learning either buy one of their products, or find an alternative is basically what they say. Well, that's mostly just marketing bullshit really. :p Linguistic competence is basically composed of grammatical competence and lexical knowledge, and while it sounds like this product is good for teaching you the latter, I suggest you supplement your grammar with some other study. 4) the verbs get rid of the person. Ie I am = sunt in romanian. no "I".kinda like the french dropping the "je" from "je suis" to make it just "suis". or like us saying "am English" instead of "I am English." I like that. (Generative) linguists call languages that do this pro drop (mainly for theoretical reasons), contrasting with non-pro drop languages like English and French. Spanish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, and Latin are also examples of languages that are pro drop - investigating the linguistic features that permit languages to be like this can get very interesting. It seems to be related to how complete conjugation systems are, but it gets somewhat complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestneb Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 This is basically the reason most people never end getting very far with foreign languages. While recognition and pronunciation of words and sounds is undeniably important, grammar is so fundamental to the whole process that without a good grammatical understanding of the language, you won't be able to make any sense out of what you're learning. Well, that's mostly just marketing bullshit really. :p Linguistic competence is basically composed of grammatical competence and lexical knowledge, and while it sounds like this product is good for teaching you the latter, I suggest you supplement your grammar with some other study. (Generative) linguists call languages that do this pro drop (mainly for theoretical reasons), contrasting with non-pro drop languages like English and French. Spanish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, and Latin are also examples of languages that are pro drop - investigating the linguistic features that permit languages to be like this can get very interesting. It seems to be related to how complete conjugation systems are, but it gets somewhat complex. basically yes, byki is not by any stretch of the imagination a complete solution, but then I'm yet to find one that is. I thought their paragraph basically said, just they used different "technical" terms to the ones you used. They have another product which seems (from their marketing speak!) to be good for the grammatical competence. I will be looking to see how well I can progress with alternative (and free) products before I look into it though. I think you misunderstood me on where I rank grammar. also I think the reason most people in this country never get far with foreign languages is because there is no perceived advantage to it. I'm half french, and it took me losing my life line (my mum, who translated everything for us into English ) to make me realise that actually speaking the language myself may help me out. If I didn't have french family I would never have pursued language as an interest, because frankly the language education I received was appalling. meh I'm tired now, brain has shut down.. hopefully I said what I was trying to say in this post.. :s night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razz Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I think you misunderstood me on where I rank grammar. also I think the reason most people in this country never get far with foreign languages is because there is no perceived advantage to it. I'm half french, and it took me losing my life line (my mum, who translated everything for us into English ) to make me realise that actually speaking the language myself may help me out. If I didn't have french family I would never have pursued language as an interest, because frankly the language education I received was appalling. I can agree with that to be honest because I see it a lot. Many kids in schools in England seem to have the attitude that because English is a widely spoken language, there is no point in other languages, and therefore don't apply themselves. I would say I'm lucky as my Dad's italian and as such I'm bilingual being bought up with both languages. I'd say my french is pretty near fluent as well because I picked it up almost instantly when we started in early primary school. That's not to say you can just pick up a language like that though. I've been doing Japanese at school for 8 years now, and I still cannot for the life of me do it. I really cannot get my head around the grammar. I think this is purely because I'm so hardwired into romance grammar and the english. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarre Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I learnt German a few years back... Romance languages have just never appealed to me. I love English, because it's become a collection of different languages- we have Latin, Romance, Germanic and even Greek and Arabic phrases in there. Romance languages, however, actually have regulatory bodies which deicde what you can and cannot say. I think a particular French one is worried about the 'Americanisation' of French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestneb Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 I learnt German a few years back... Romance languages have just never appealed to me. I love English, because it's become a collection of different languages- we have Latin, Romance, Germanic and even Greek and Arabic phrases in there. Romance languages, however, actually have regulatory bodies which deicde what you can and cannot say. I think a particular French one is worried about the 'Americanisation' of French. France has this, but I wasn't aware of such an organisation specifically for Spanish, Italian Portuguese and Romanian? The French one is worried about everything, keeps them a job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarre Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 France has this, but I wasn't aware of such an organisation specifically for Spanish, Italian Portuguese and Romanian?The French one is worried about everything, keeps them a job I think Italy does as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eenuh Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Dutch is a lot sexier than it initially sounds or seems. A good friend of mine has a Dutch boyfriend and a few other Dutch friends, and she said to me this one time: "Jim, listen to them speak...it's like they're from another planet." At first, it did sound like Klingon, almost. But, I'm starting to get the hang of it now. Wij sitten op de trein! 'Zitten'. You still have much to learn, young Padawan. =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyxis Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I downloaded the Chinese version to rate it and don't really get what the download was for? Is this all flash card based? If so, the flash cards aren't any good and didn't display the pinyin. I also didn't like the woman's accent. I'm not a fan of flash cards. A good text book with audio and an additional grammar book is the best way to learn Chinese. Best books for Chinese: Chinese in Steps 1-3 (book 4 is awful) New Practical Chinese Reader series (5 in total) Routledge's Basic and Intermediate Chinese grammar books. I want to give A Trip to China a try, but I'm currently hooked on NPCR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pookiablo Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Well if anyone wants to chat over PM/MSN in French/German sometime I wouldn't mind - would be good practice for me in fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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