Origins of the Universe

[Shino]

Explain by what you mean by that.

 

It means you didn't choose to believe in god or Christian-ism, neither did your parents or grandparents, you were thought to believe in it (not you specifically, but mr-paul at least).

[UK]

It means you didn't choose to believe in god or Christian-ism, neither did your parents or grandparents, you were thought to believe in it.

 

A few years ago, maybe; now, I am Christian by my own accord.

 

My grandfather is a Jew, so my Mum wasn't forced into anything.

 

fact is, I could become an athiest if i wanted too, but I justsee no meaning of life as an aethiest.

 

I mean, some don't believe in life after death and crap, and it just seems so pessimistic

[Slaggis]

A few years ago, maybe; now, I am Christian by my own accord.

 

My grandfather is a Jew, so my Mum wasn't forced into anything.

 

fact is, I could become an athiest if i wanted too, but I justsee no meaning of life as an aethiest.

 

I mean, some don't believe in life after death and crap, and it just seems so pessimistic

 

So because I am an aethiest have no meaning to my life? *Goes and kills himself*

[Mr-Paul]

It means you didn't choose to believe in god or Christian-ism, neither did your parents or grandparents, you were thought to believe in it (not you specifically, but mr-paul at least).

 

I have chosen. I could have chosen not to believe, many people with a Christian upbringing will then decide they don't believe, but I am old enough to have made my own decision on what I believe. I have chosen to believe in christianity myself, but have decided that being a practicing christian is not for me, so I am not made to attend church by my family. I understand what you mean about me being taught it, but I could reject that and be an atheist, but in my own personal opinion, not my parents, not my grandparents, God exists.

[UK]

So because I am an aethiest have no meaning to my life? *Goes and kills himself*

 

No, just some aethiests go through life without a stuff for anyone else, and then when they die. they think

'Who gives a shit? I'm going under soil now, so that worms can eat me.'

 

 

then again, I can name you a fair few religious folk like that too.

[Slaggis]

No, just some aethiests go through life without a stuff for anyone else, and then when they die. they think

'Who gives a shit? I'm going under soil now, so that worms can eat me.'

 

 

then again, I can name you a fair few religious folk like that too.

 

Yeah, but I haven't said I don't belive there might be something after death. That doesn't make me religious, that just makes me wonder.

 

 

Is anyone on the forum a creationist? I'd love to hear all your opinions about things, it really interests me.

[Sanchez]

I mean, some don't believe in life after death and crap, and it just seems so pessimistic

 

Well the way I see it as that Christians think our lives are simply a waiting list for heaven (or more likely hell), and I think that's pretty sick.

[Indigo]

No no, this is a fundamental flaw in logic. When you claim something, it can be dismissed without prove. By your logic, you can take anything for possible truth if it cannot be disproven. Try to disprove me the existence of tooth fairies or the giant universe ass it shits matter from. Just because the idea can exist in your head, it means nothing without prove. The idea of God can actually be discarded, just like the idea of Santa Claus and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; objectively speaking they are all as ridiculous as one another as there's no prove.

Good observation, yet all the examples you gave could in fact be disproved by extensive empirical research. Any open-minded person can make a clear distinction between say the possible truth of the Santa Claus myth and the possible existence of a supreme being, in that the latter is in fact in the realms of possibility and does offer explanations.

 

Well the way I see it as that Christians think our lives are simply a waiting list for heaven (or more likely hell), and I think that's pretty sick.

That's a misguided perception. In fact, Christianity is more about the present, and our opportunities to serve God and the people around us right now. Is is with our God-guided actions that we can bring a glimpse of heaven to earth, communicating God's love and peace. You see this in Christian organisations such as The Message. If you overlook the negative media stereotypes, you'd see that true Christianity isn't about condemnation, it's about compassion - compassion that demands action.

[Oxigen_Waste]

There was a theory like that back before the 1960's called the steady state theory that suggested that the universe was expanding, but that new matter was constantly being created to keep the universe essentially the same. The problem with this is that it does not account for the homogenious nature throughout the universe of cosmic background radiation and also images from distant (and therefore ancient) parts of the universe show that the universe has changed over time.

 

Wrong. All I said is that I think it was there all along, I never said it's never changed or will never change. But change does not nulify existence, does it?

 

Yes, but everything has to start somewhere right? I mean it has to have a beginning?

 

Everything you know, and as you know it. You are as limited as the five sensed you possess. They are your tools of detection, everything outside them, you do not understand. Hence, from a human's point of view, everything has a beginnig, that is a human truth, but not a universal truth. We understand less than 1% of the Universe's existence. And will never understand more than that, all we know is that it's there. Everything else is beyond us.

 

I think that the human mind can't possibly comprehend existance, space and time to even a fraction of its full extent, so the best we can do is use math to get as close as we can get.

Also, if a God had to create stuff because there was nothing, how was God there? Wasn't there supposed to be nothing? It's impossible to imagine "nothing".

 

Bingo.

There are ways to show that we cannot understand the concept of "nothing".

Like, for example: we think that blind people live in the darkness. All they see is darkness, but when a person is born blind and has surgery to turn that around, they do not know what darkness is. They see nothing. Not darkness, not pitch black, but absolutely nothing. And what's more fascinating, when the treatment goes wrong and they go blind again, they do, indeed, "see" darkness. Still hard to imagine, but it really points out that "nothing" is a concept we can't grasp. The only way we understand nothing is when we're not aware of it, because after all... it's nothing, isn't it? =D

 

 

And as for God, I believe that the fact we believe in God is extremely important in demostrating our arrogance as a race. We went as far as to create a fairy tale just so we didn't have to admit that we cannot answer a question. That, and the fact the we need validation as a race and as individuals, wich reverts to the creation of an almighty entity who created us in his own image. It's hard to accept that we are just a coincidence and that there is absolutely no meaning to life, but hell, as far as I'm concerned, that's the absolute truth. A human live is no more valuable than a cockroach, by universal laws... So, we created a way to make ourselves more worthy. Such arrogance amazes me.

I guess this view I have on things explains why I give absolutely no value to human lives other than the ones I'm close to. Take Colin McRae, for example, I respected him, but hearing he died was as disturbing to me as squashing a spider... not disturbing at all, that is.

 

 

 

OH!!! THERE IS NO MEANING TO LIFE. You're the one who has to choose your own meaning.

[Slaggis]

 

 

OH!!! THERE IS NO MEANING TO LIFE. You're the one who has to choose your own meaning.

 

Exactly! I always say that. Though then again I just say, if no-one listens to me saying that, that the meaning of life is to basically carry on the species.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Exactly! I always say that. Though then again I just say, if no-one listens to me saying that, that the meaning of life is to basically carry on the species.

 

Ah-ah, the joy of orgasms. =D

[Sanchez]

 

And as for God, I believe that the fact we believe in God is extremely important in demostrating our arrogance as a race. We went as far as to create a fairy tale just so we didn't have to admit that we cannot answer a question. That, and the fact the we need validation as a race and as individuals, wich reverts to the creation of an almighty entity who created us in his own image. It's hard to accept that we are just a coincidence and that there is absolutely no meaning to life, but hell, as far as I'm concerned, that's the absolute truth. A human live is no more valuable than a cockroach, by universal laws... So, we created a way to make ourselves more worthy. Such arrogance amazes me.

I agree completely, but I think a large part of the reason God still exists is that politicians preserve it to use as a scape goat or a motive. I think human greed plays a part.

[UK]

Well the way I see it as that Christians think our lives are simply a waiting list for heaven (or more likely hell), and I think that's pretty sick.

 

Some Christians don't even believe in hell, so thats stereotypical.

[The fish]

"Why can't the universe be a loop; something that expands and contracts over time?"

 

This statement leaves me curious. If it continually expands and contracts in a loop, which did it start with?

 

You obviously fail to understand the term "continually": it means it is without a start, or, hopefully, an end.

 

We don't know when it started, it most likely didn't, it's just been going on for ever and ever and ever, making universes and destroying them, involving possibly endless numbers of beings that have asked these very questions.

 

It is, by the way, a much more reasonable theory to the idea that "something we can't possible detect or rationally theorise about did it by magic LOLZ!"

Sorry to sound like I'm lampooning your theory, but that's a fairly accurate scientific summary of it...

[Paj!]

I can't be bothered thinking about it.

 

The bible is a book of stories, and should therfore be discounted, IMO. That's all I know.

[jayseven]

A few years ago, maybe; now, I am Christian by my own accord

 

fact is, I could become an athiest if i wanted too, but I justsee no meaning of life as an aethiest.

 

I don't know if this was retorted on or not yet... but you phrase it as if you tihnk being an agnostic is still a valid choice for yourself, and I would have thought that it wouldn't be a comprehendable position for a true believer - the remote possibility of God not existing, why, surely that's just a route bound to hell for any christian out there?

 

I kid. Just some lame referrence to Satan in Paradise Lost. n/m.

[Supergrunch]

A nice list of fallacies for people to chew on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

 

(Not that they're necessarily being used, I thought people might find them interesting and allow them to point out the exact problem in arguments)

[Cube]

Everything you know, and as you know it. You are as limited as the five sensed you possess. They are your tools of detection, everything outside them, you do not understand.

 

Yea. We can only detect 10% of matter with our senses.

 

I justsee no meaning of life as an aethiest.

 

And I see no meaning in devoting part of your life in a fake idol made for the sole purpose of quenching the human thirst for knowledge and to control the actions of people.

 

The person who made this stuff did wonders to the growing world - the creation of basic laws. Using fear to control people has always worked...religion just makes what caused the fear impossible to reach, therefore no retaliation towards those who cause the fear can be made. I mean...why else would the Bible depict God as evil? The "Early Quantum State Phenomenon" (aka Noah's Ark) is one of the examples of an evil God. And God tortures people so he can win bets.

[DCK]

Good observation, yet all the examples you gave could in fact be disproved by extensive empirical research. Any open-minded person can make a clear distinction between say the possible truth of the Santa Claus myth and the possible existence of a supreme being, in that the latter is in fact in the realms of possibility and does offer explanations.

Suppose we search every corner of the universe and we can't find Santa Claus, one can always say that Santa Claus exists out of space and time as a supernatural being. Likewise, you can seek out every corner of the universe and seek out God and not find Him, and explain that by thinking of the property that he exists out of space and time. How do you know that Santa Claus is not as omnipotent and supreme as God is? Can you disprove that Santa Claus has super powers and can't create the universe by himself? No-one can, and no-one can disprove God's powers, but that doesn't mean Santa Claus is a super hero and neither does it mean that there's a God with omnipotent powers. You, personally, haven't imagined them with the same powers, but objectively speaking, as both are only ideas and concepts in people's heads, what makes either of them more valid or plausible? See the Flying Spaghetti Monster parody for more illustration.

 

Anyway, this is turning into yet another atheist theist discussion.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Yea. We can only detect 10% of matter with our senses.

 

I'm sorry, I just can't decide if that's sarcastic or not.

[Cube]

I'm sorry, I just can't decide if that's sarcastic or not.

 

It isn't - I'm referring to Dark Matter/Energy. It makes up 90% of all matter and we don't understand it at all.

[DCK]

Yea. We can only detect 10% of matter with our senses.

It's actually only 5%:

Of the 25% of dark matter our universe is made out of we know ridiculously little, but the dark energy is even worse because we know absolutely nothing about it for sure...

[Paj!]

It wasn't an active choice of mine to be Atheistic/Agnostic.

 

My brain just doesn't believe it, since after all, the bible is no more believable than Harry Potter (or any fiction). Just because say it's true doesn't mean it is.

 

However, I wish I could be religious. It just seems much easier having an "answer" for every mystery.

[UK]

It wasn't an active choice of mine to be Atheistic/Agnostic.

 

My brain just doesn't believe it, since after all, the bible is no more believable than Harry Potter (or any fiction). Just because say it's true doesn't mean it is.

 

However, I wish I could be religious. It just seems much easier having an "answer" for every mystery.

 

I know you don't know what you're talking about, because many Christians believe that stories in the Bible were put in it, without being true. A Christian's aim is not to believe the Bible- its too follow it's meaning.

 

Heck, for I'm concerned the Bible could be a load of Harry Potter fiction- ultimately, all that suffices is that God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and such made us, and that Jesus dies for the sins of mankind.

 

Whether you believe it or not is of little to no concern to me. whether you get it's message or not is a different thing.

 

Some may say the Bible is even a metaphor.

[Slaggis]

I know you don't know what you're talking about, because many Christians believe that stories in the Bible were put in it, without being true. A Christian's aim is not to believe the Bible- its too follow it's meaning.

 

Heck, for I'm concerned the Bible could be a load of Harry Potter fiction- ultimately, all that suffices is that God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and such made us, and that Jesus dies for the sins of mankind.

 

Whether you believe it or not is of little to no concern to me. whether you get it's message or not is a different thing.

 

Some may say the Bible is even a metaphor.

 

I like that point you made. Very well said.

 

Some christians, i.e creationists seem to take the whole bible as truth which I just think is ridiculous. It's more like that fable's book. It's sort of a guide to how you should live your life I suppose.

 

Everyone can take something from the bible whether it be in a religious way or not.

 

I'm an athiest, but can still get some of what the bible is trying to say.