Caris Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 If it's lacking games now where it has the support of almost all third parties what do you think it will be like now that they are losing them? You know the reason wii was lacking games was maybe of the lack of support. Sony HAD support. It does have all the support it needs, all the major 3rd party games are out and all the 1s arty titles are coming out for fall.
mcj metroid Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 1: mcj needs to grow up and also stop being so fanboyish, that's one of the problems with Nintendo, fanboys, they'll whine to shit about NoE being crap to them, but then when other consoles come into it Nintendo can do no wrong.2. I don't think Nintendo relies on its 1st party as much as it used to. With the Wii they've done a much better job of making the console and the "getting games onto the console" process much more dev friendly. Where i think MS has a mix, mostly 3rd party games (though a lot do have MS game studios as a helping hand). 3. And one more, this is mainly aimed at mcj again, as being the worst for this, people need to stop pointlessly slating the PS3, it's like the Wii right now, it doesn't ahve many great games yet, right it costs more and hasn't sold fantastically well yet (which i won't blame the lack of games on AT ALL, if it was cheaper, it'd have boomed instantly, and it's a fact) but the Wii hasn't got the killer apps yet, it's got the same half-decent line up. (which is currently the reason i haven't played Wii as much as my 360 yet) This started because someone said NInetndo depend on their idiotic fanboys.....I disagreed.. and i am NOT a nintendo fanboy. In fact as of this moment i own no this gen consoles:P.. Last gen i owned all 3(not dreamcast) 1: I didn't whine about anything.......I actually complained about Nintendo fans that whined about noe being crap to them. I get over that. I do not hate the ps3 just think it could be a lot better and Referred to it's games to prove a point. 2: Agreed but i still think sony relies on third party more than microsoft. 3: Fact the 360 has better games... You cannot deny it at this point. I don't anything i said was being Nintendo fanboyish so find something. It does have all the support it needs, all the major 3rd party games are out and all the 1s arty titles are coming out for fall. Yes and i'm sure by then it will have the quality titles it needs to shift systems. My point was now it doesn't. With the wii the system itself sells because it's new and different.
flameboy Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Nintendo have always relied on 1st party titles more, I mean look at the moment there is not 1 killer app A* third party title that will have unconverted hardcore gamers hunting down a Wii. The same could even be said of the DS, the majority of titles people want are 1st or 2nd party. The problem Nintendo have is that their titles just sell so much better on their consoles. There's some stupid stat that the top 3 selling 3rd party Wii titles combined havn't even sold as many copies as Zelda (or is it Wii Play? I can't remember?), people do not buy Nintendo consoles for 3rd Party games, as a student I could only afford 1 console, I was soooo close to getting a 360, but I just could not bear missing out on the next Zelda, Mario, Metroid and Smash Bros and Nintendo knows thats why so many people keep buying thier consoles so they aren't going to pay silly money like Microsoft do to get 3rd Party exclusives especially not in the current climate where the Wii is selling like crazy...
DCK Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Nintendo is WAY too dependant on 1st party releases. Things didn't use to be that way back in the SNES era, but since Nintendo kicked out all third party support they had during the N64 days things aren't returning to normal. The problem is that the Nintendo fanbase considers Nintendo's games superior to third party offerings and games need to be really really good (Resi 4, ToS) to get some appreciation; the dependancy is beyond Nintendo's control. Having said that, the Wii is attracting third party developers as in the days of old now: Manhunt 2 Zack & Wiki Nights: Journey of Dreams Soul Calibur Legends Final Fantasy Chrystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles And E3 is yet to come.
Hellfire Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Nintendo is WAY too dependant on 1st party releases. Things didn't use to be that way back in the SNES era, but since Nintendo kicked out all third party support they had during the N64 days things aren't returning to normal. The problem is that the Nintendo fanbase considers Nintendo's games superior to third party offerings and games need to be really really good (Resi 4, ToS) to get some appreciation; the dependancy is beyond Nintendo's control. Having said that, the Wii is attracting third party developers as in the days of old now: Manhunt 2 Zack & Wiki Nights: Journey of Dreams Soul Calibur Legends Final Fantasy Chrystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles And E3 is yet to come. They didn't problems with 3rd party support back then, but the situation was almost the same, almost no 3rd party game could compete with 1st party games.
flameboy Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Nintendo is WAY too dependant on 1st party releases. Things didn't use to be that way back in the SNES era, but since Nintendo kicked out all third party support they had during the N64 days things aren't returning to normal. The problem is that the Nintendo fanbase considers Nintendo's games superior to third party offerings and games need to be really really good (Resi 4, ToS) to get some appreciation; the dependancy is beyond Nintendo's control. Having said that, the Wii is attracting third party developers as in the days of old now: Manhunt 2 Zack & Wiki Nights: Journey of Dreams Soul Calibur Legends Final Fantasy Chrystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles And E3 is yet to come. The problem with that list is that the majority of them are offshoots of popular franchises, not the fully fletched sequel, Soul Calibur, FF and Resi, if Nintendo had got the exclusive on the next true iteration of any of these titles then it would be a different story but Nintendo aren't going to get this anytime soon. Following on from this only 1 is a new IP, if Nintendo aren't going to get the latest installment of a current big IP they need to find the next big thing to really get people thinking hell I'm going to buy a Wii for "third party title X", something that will capture the imagination and enthusiasm of the public on mass, something like GTA, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Gears of War etc, etc... If Nintendo want to really promote their console as a console for all, third party developers included, the need someone to bring a title to the Wii that could become the console killer app...
Fierce_LiNk Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 On the subject of fanboys, the most annoying imo are the 360 fanboys. Or rather, the anti-Nintendo crowd. They're far more annoying.
McMad Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 On the subject of fanboys, the most annoying imo are the 360 fanboys. Or rather, the anti-Nintendo crowd. They're far more annoying. I take it you're talking about people on these boards...
Fresh Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Is it Nintendo's fault that their first-party games are so damn awesome that my disposable income goes on them instead of third-party games?
Caris Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 On the subject of fanboys, the most annoying imo are the 360 fanboys. Or rather, the anti-Nintendo crowd. They're far more annoying. I dunno if that was a dig at me or not, but i love my Wii but Nintendo do as much wrong as Sony and MS, and people need to accept that.
AshMat Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Yeah, we're not 360 Fanboys, which is obvious Flink was referring to us, i love my Wii, launch day buyer etc, but it's collecting dust because it has no appealing games right now. There's No More Heroes, Brawl, Galaxy, Metroid 3, and more i'm waiting for, just because i say my 360s much better now, doesn't make me a fanboy.
blender Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 I dont like those boys who like 'gangsta style' in red steel and those that like GTA. Is there a name for those boys.?
flameboy Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 I dont like those boys who like 'gangsta style' in red steel and those that like GTA. Is there a name for those boys.? despite how much you don't like them they are another strand of the casual market that buy games...
jammy2211 Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Nintendo have always relied on 1st party titles more, I mean look at the moment there is not 1 killer app A* third party title that will have unconverted hardcore gamers hunting down a Wii. The same could even be said of the DS, the majority of titles people want are 1st or 2nd party. The problem Nintendo have is that their titles just sell so much better on their consoles. There's some stupid stat that the top 3 selling 3rd party Wii titles combined havn't even sold as many copies as Zelda (or is it Wii Play? I can't remember?), people do not buy Nintendo consoles for 3rd Party games, as a student I could only afford 1 console, I was soooo close to getting a 360, but I just could not bear missing out on the next Zelda, Mario, Metroid and Smash Bros and Nintendo knows thats why so many people keep buying thier consoles so they aren't going to pay silly money like Microsoft do to get 3rd Party exclusives especially not in the current climate where the Wii is selling like crazy... That whole 'myth' thing isn't true though. I'm sure many people would buy third party games on the GameCube or Wii or whatever, but when third parties release utter tripe games they simply arn't going to sell. Companies have been hugely successful on the Wii so far, just look at the great sales of Red Steel, Rayman RR, SonicATSRs, DBZ 2, Call of Duty 3, Madden 07, Tiger woods PGA 07 and many more. When you consider non of these games received much critical acclaim and many were met with mixed reviews, some of the sales are incredible. Of course the whole third party myth began on the GameCube, when third parties were pissed off cause their low budget, further strong developement teams couldn't sell games on the console. Well, lets look at the sales of the few third party efforts which were judged to be good games shall we? Resident Evil 4 - 1.61 million (It came out after Capcom annouced the PS2 port.) Tales of Symphonia - 1.08 million Sonic Heroes - 1.43 million Soul Calibur 2 - 1.48 million Final Fantasy: Crystal Chornicles - 1.36 million Resident Evil Zero - 1.25 million Star Wars rogue Sqaudron 2 - 1.88 million Unfortunately from there it gets very difficult to name any third party games that took the console seriously. For a console with just 20 million owners at the end of it's life, some of those sales imo are incredible. The fact people will buy third party games happily, but if the games arn't good then we aint going to buy them. I think third parties are realising this now, and the upped support for the Wii is becoming ever present as every week passes. It still has a long way to go but when you look at the Wii's list of third party games you can see it has a lot more potential then what the GameCube had at launch. Also some of you may be quick to point out Eternal Darkness and Viewtiful Joe's poor sales. Yes, they sold poor, but every console has games which just don't sell. Viewtiful Joe didn't sell good in PS2 either, and well, Eternal Darkness is a complete mystery to me. Also the Sony guy is wrong, simple. He's just trying to reassure the Sony userbase that although games are going non-exclusive, they're still doing fine or whatever :S. God knows, he's probably bricking himself over what Konami of Square might have to say at E3.
flameboy Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 jammy the third party myth (as you put it) began way before the Gamecube. it started with the SNES and Megadrive, Sega offered much more competitive and lower licensing fees as well as much cheaper production costs. Nintendo basically charged whatever they wanted and monopolised all the catridge manufacture, third parties did not agree with this and did not approve at all, then came Nintendo's decision to stick with catridges for the N64, despite rising chip costs and the low cost and easy production of CD's. This is what lead to a lot of third party companies staying away from the N64, Gamecube attempted to right this with its disc media and reportedly lower license fees, but that did little to encourage companies to bring many exclusives to the cube. Ok we did have some but none anywhere near the killer app status that Sony have enjoyed in recent years... Also you the talk about the great sales of Red Steel, Rayman RR, SonicATSRs, DBZ 2, Call of Duty 3, Madden 07, Tiger woods PGA 07, the sales of these titles combined are nothing compared to Nintendo's first party titles, when you consider how few first party games are out there compared to these best selling third party games, it makes this even more worrying. Whilst third party companies are now attempting to up their game with Wii and bring out more titles but they will soon become dissillusioned as with other generations of Ninty consoles, that their games are not selling anywhere near as many copies as Nintendo titles and not even close to encapturing the Wii userbase on mass. Until a third party brings a truly, big and ambitious title to the Wii this will remain the case and even then it will likely remain the case, look at all the good third party DS titles that have started to come out now their sales don't touch those of the likes of NSMB, Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, Brain Training etc... Nintendo's are really victims of their own success as the only hardware manufacturer that has concisdently been a top games developer aswell...
Ant-Shimmin Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 nintendo rely too much on their loyal and unquestioning fanboys Amen to that
Gaijin von Snikbah Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Thats not true. Nintendo specializes in making games for everyone. Its one of the most difficult things to do. If they relied on their hardcore fanbase they would not have been in the console business anymore. They need to sell games like Mario Party 110 to survive as well.
immy Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 jammy2211 where are you getting your sales numbers from?
jammy2211 Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 jammy the third party myth (as you put it) began way before the Gamecube. it started with the SNES and Megadrive, Sega offered much more competitive and lower licensing fees as well as much cheaper production costs. Nintendo basically charged whatever they wanted and monopolised all the catridge manufacture, third parties did not agree with this and did not approve at all, then came Nintendo's decision to stick with catridges for the N64, despite rising chip costs and the low cost and easy production of CD's. This is what lead to a lot of third party companies staying away from the N64, Gamecube attempted to right this with its disc media and reportedly lower license fees, but that did little to encourage companies to bring many exclusives to the cube. Ok we did have some but none anywhere near the killer app status that Sony have enjoyed in recent years... That's got absolutely nothing to do with sales though. It has to do with other myths, but not the sales one. Also you the talk about the great sales of Red Steel, Rayman RR, SonicATSRs, DBZ 2, Call of Duty 3, Madden 07, Tiger woods PGA 07, the sales of these titles combined are nothing compared to Nintendo's first party titles, when you consider how few first party games are out there compared to these best selling third party games, it makes this even more worrying. Whilst third party companies are now attempting to up their game with Wii and bring out more titles but they will soon become dissillusioned as with other generations of Ninty consoles, that their games are not selling anywhere near as many copies as Nintendo titles and not even close to encapturing the Wii userbase on mass. But how is it fair to compare a game like Zelda, with 4 years developement time and a huge fanbase, along with it's critical acclaim to these games? Ubisoft will be amazed with the sales of what were too very medicre games made on a much smaller budget. Companies don't care how much a game sells, they care how much profit it makes, and I'm positive these games proved alot more profitable then some of the companies 360 / Ps3 titles. They also got some good sales to go with it though. Until a third party brings a truly, big and ambitious title to the Wii this will remain the case and even then it will likely remain the case, look at all the good third party DS titles that have started to come out now their sales don't touch those of the likes of NSMB, Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, Brain Training etc... It's the third parties fault's they're not on the ball when developing a game. They'll complain about Nintendo being too good or whatever, but the truth is if they actually bothered to research and develope a good game for the system before it's successful they'd see alot more success. Even saying that, again profitability on the DS is far more important then sales, and I can't think anyone who is complaining about the DS not being profitable. There are some third party titles that could show the success possible on the Wii, well definitely more so then the DS, GameCube and N64 had. It's going to be interesting to watch the sales of games like Nights 2, Zack and Wiki, No More Heroes, Dragon Blade, RE:UC, FF:CC 2, Dragon Quest swords and a few more. Either way they'll all prove profitable, and that will guarentee more third party lovin. Nintendo's are really victims of their own success as the only hardware manufacturer that has concisdently been a top games developer aswell... They're not really victims, the amount of money they make for themselves. Many third parties are gearing up to topple Nintendo on the Wii, and from what I've seen the Wii is going to be a much better platform for third parties to have success on. Nintendo will ultimately rule all the top spots for sales no doubt, but third parties will be ready to rake in the money when it comes to it along with Nintendo. jammy2211 where are you getting your sales numbers from? Various press releases and sites. I work for a website so I have access to alot of this stuff.
tapedeck Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Jammy speaks the truth. Everyone wanted to jump on the Nintendo bandwagon back in the 80's and 90's and Nintendo made them pay the money to do so. Sensible really in the world of business. Then they floundered sales wise with the N64 and GAMECUBE yet still made enough money to maintain their own business. And yes jammy, you are spot on when you talk about Rayman and Red Steel as not being top sellers (in relation to Nintendo efforts). Yet the money Ubisoft made from those games would have been 'profitable' income. The fact Red Steel 2 and Rayman Raving Rabbids 2 are in development (ALREADY) shows this fact more than words could ever show. With the amount of people buying the Wii brings more chance for sales to rise. With casual and NEW gamers entering the market because of Wii, Wii itself becomes the OPPORTUNITY for more software to sell. Remember, the promise and the potential of both income AND artistic innovation offered on the Wii are irresistable to all companies. There are many companies who aren't Capcom, aren't Sega or EA and neither have the financial resources or the trappings of "expected" traditional gaming to produce what the powerhouses have done in the past. These are the developers who will also win on Wii. Wii means: 'Small investment, large potential payoff.' This is why we will see so much third party activity on Wii. Just my penny worth.
jammy2211 Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Jammy speaks the truth. Everyone wanted to jump on the Nintendo bandwagon back in the 80's and 90's and Nintendo made them pay the money to do so. Sensible really in the world of business. Then they floundered sales wise with the N64 and GAMECUBE yet still made enough money to maintain their own business. And yes jammy, you are spot on when you talk about Rayman and Red Steel as not being top sellers (in relation to Nintendo efforts). Yet the money Ubisoft made from those games would have been 'profitable' income. The fact Red Steel 2 and Rayman Raving Rabbids 2 are in development (ALREADY) shows this fact more than words could ever show. With the amount of people buying the Wii brings more chance for sales to rise. With casual and NEW gamers entering the market because of Wii, Wii itself becomes the OPPORTUNITY for more software to sell. Remember, the promise and the potential of both income AND artistic innovation offered on the Wii are irresistable to all companies. There are many companies who aren't Capcom, aren't Sega or EA and neither have the financial resources or the trappings of "expected" traditional gaming to produce what the powerhouses have done in the past. These are the developers who will also win on Wii. Wii means: 'Small investment, large potential payoff.' This is why we will see so much third party activity on Wii. Just my penny worth. Yeah, I think the best fact here to this. To break even on am exclusive PS3 game, you have to sell 500 000 copies. Now, just seriously, how huge is that sales figure? Who the hell can take a risk like that on a game? Alot of smaller companies are going to be forced to develope for the Wii (not that they'll be annoyed) and most of the bigger companies won't want a collapse in their share values. I can't imagine the profit RRR made, I would estimate at something like $35 million to be honest. It sold over 1 million copies at about $50, and probably cost only about $2 million to make. The overheads and figures must be amazing if you ask me. When you look at the good third party games we see now for the Wii, it's longer then the entire GameCube library of good third party games. As long as these games make a decent profit then I don't think third parties are going to be complaining.
tapedeck Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Indeed Jammy. I agree. We could be seeing the turn around of many developers just like the Project Reality to PS1 situation. Cartridges were the problem then. Expensive format meant everyone flocked to the "cheaper to develop for" PS1. Now instead of cartridges, HD and Blueray are the main problems. Surely the same thing that happened in 1994-1996 will happen. Devs will see the cost factor and consumers will see the "cool" factor of the Wii (similar to PS1) and lots will jump ship. I'm just applying logic from the history of the videogame market. The only places to look are the past and present and certainly it seems that the Wii is in a very good position right now. Long may it continue. There is much more variety now so I don't see how consoles cannot co-exist with each other. I do think that the Wii is in the strongest position though. Even though MS and Sony have much more to offer software side. In some ways I really do think that the market MS and Sony target (gamers, tech heads) is tiny compared to a new market of non-gamers and casual gamers..Another topic entirely I'm sure...
The-chosen-one Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 its only a good thing that nintendo rely's on the first party games couse in my opinion they only make really good games only games i did not like was Pikmin and the Suddenly change of Windwaker the rest of the games nintendo ever made was the bomb , a third party i really really want is Shenmue from Sega that game is a Second place best game after Zelda that is
flameboy Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Companies don't care how much a game sells, they care how much profit it makes, and I'm positive these games proved alot more profitable then some of the companies 360 / Ps3 titles. They also got some good sales to go with it though. They're not really victims, the amount of money they make for themselves. Many third parties are gearing up to topple Nintendo on the Wii, and from what I've seen the Wii is going to be a much better platform for third parties to have success on. Nintendo will ultimately rule all the top spots for sales no doubt, but third parties will be ready to rake in the money when it comes to it along with Nintendo. Of course companies care how many they sell, they would be bothered if it was a million selling game for example, for a developer it would mean more money for future development off the publishers, longer to spend between games etc... Secondly I don't think you totally understood what I meant by Nintendo being victims of their own success. I mean as in people don't generally see Nintendo consoles being the best consoles for third party content and this has lead to Nintendo not having number 1 spot for the last 2 generations and has created the current view that Nintendo consoles are only good for 1st party titles, this could ultimately also long term ruin the Wii in the end. The PS3 has a projected 7-10 year lifespan much longer than any console, it will no doubt drop in price down the years as more and more are sold leading the economies of scales and as chip sets become cheaper and easier to assemble, leading to a much more competitive looking market than now, i think the lack of A* third party titles could start to show more then. One thing that has really crossed my mind is that no matter how successful the Wii is Nintendo will never achieve the same level of success of the NES owing to the now fragmented games market, people will always view Nintendo as a fallen giant who have admittedly risen from the flames to be great once more but that unprecedented level of success they enjoyed will never be repeated...
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