A Dark Place

[Haden]

Ok I have been thiking about morality a lot recently. And the idea that morality is just an inbuilt group function that higher primates have to stop them from harming each other and rewarding group co-operation.

 

This has led me to think if this is true. What would be 'wrong' (in the sense that wrong is a concept that really has no meaning) with being in a scenario where you could murder someone if you were able to get away with it and you could gain from it.

 

I mean if you had the oppurtunity to and were an atheist I literally don't see the problem with doing this lacking a legitamate reason to if you had already identified what morality is and the fact that it is a concept that is part of you but that you needent follow.

 

This isn't a flame thread directed at either atheist or religious people. Basically I was wondering of your responses. Firstly to the thought that would you murder someone if you could get away and profit from it and if not why not? I mean like instead of saying because its wrong justify why.

 

Anyway yep answers on a postcard people!

[Tellyn]

To be honest, no I wouldn't. I've got no right to end someone's life, even if I could gain from it. Yes, I'd probably do it if it was Osama Bin Laden, or if my family and friends were in danger, but not just randomly because I could gain from it. (Btw I don't feel this way about euphenasia (sp?) due to the fact that it's a priveledge and last wish for someone who is already dying).

[Haden]

Ok thanks for getting the ball rolling. If I could anaylse your statement. By no "right" what exactly do you mean? Where does this right come from what does it entail? Thanks again.

[Tellyn]

Ok thanks for getting the ball rolling. If I could anaylse your statement. By no "right" what exactly do you mean? Where does this right come from what does it entail? Thanks again.

 

Really interesting thread Haden.

 

Good question aswell. ... I guess being brought up to think that killing is wrong and learning about the Holocaust and such just makes me think that way. A person's life shouldn't be controlled by someone else.

[Haden]

Really interesting thread Haden.

 

Good question aswell. ... I guess being brought up to think that killing is wrong and learning about the Holocaust and such just makes me think that way. A person's life shouldn't be controlled by someone else.

 

Thanks I have been bugging people with these questions recently lol.

 

Ok back to your answer. I am just going to play complete devils advocate to everyone so sorry if I come across as pedantic.

 

If I as an atheist someone with no ties to a presupposed moral code and who had no intrest in the Holocaust I still don't see any code that would stop me from killing someone. Obviously society would look down on it but if I could get away with it I don't see why I shouldn't be able to do as I please.

[Tellyn]

Thanks I have been bugging people with these questions recently lol.

 

Ok back to your answer. I am just going to play complete devils advocate to everyone so sorry if I come across as pedantic.

 

If I as an atheist someone with no ties to a presupposed moral code and who had no intrest in the Holocaust I still don't see any code that would stop me from killing someone. Obviously society would look down on it but if I could get away with it I don't see why I shouldn't be able to do as I please.

 

But would you ever be able to get the image out of your mind, and the constant voice in your brain reminding you that you killed someone? I wouldn't be able to live with it to be honest.

[gaggle64]

Basically, I choose not to murder someone for the same reason I have no wish to be murdered. It's just not nice. Empathy, basically. It's a pretty important and extraordinarily basic survival and social instinct for the human race (and probably most of the animal kingdom). Imagine a world where killing someone just didn't matter, at all. It just wouldn't work.

[Haden]

But would you ever be able to get the image out of your mind, and the constant voice in your brain reminding you that you killed someone? I wouldn't be able to live with it to be honest.

 

Personally probably not. But what I want to investigate is as you correctly say. That constant voice.

 

Is that what many religions call conscience or is it my brain telling me that I have violated a group mechanic code. Now if it is the latter, then feeling bad would surely be like feeling hungry or thirsty. My brain is automatically telling me off because I broke one of its code. But as a human I have logic I have identified it and am able to break it and live with it.

 

Basically, I choose not to murder someone for the same reason I have no wish to be murdered. It's just not nice. Empathy, basically. It's a pretty important and extraordinarily basic survival and social instinct for the human race (and probably most of the animal kingdom). Imagine a world where killing someone just didn't matter, at all. It just wouldn't work.

 

But you would have no more risk of being murded than usual it would be done in secret. If you want to twist the scenario a bit more it could be framed that you were trying to save this persons life etc. What I am trying to do is see if there is anything beyond just survival group instinct as you point out.

 

Thanks for the post though.

[Fresh]

Good thread, made me think for more than the usual 6 seconds.

 

Personally would have no problem killing someone as long as i feel its jusified.

[Haden]

Good thread, made me think for more than the usual 6 seconds.

 

Personally would have no problem killing someone as long as i feel its jusified.

 

Ah good stuff. Justified another word linked very closley with morality. What would the justifications be?

 

And on a sub point what are your thoughts on killing someone for pure self intrest needs?

[Shino]

We are social beings (well we should be), and as such, even if we benefit from such action, it would never be enough to justify the need to kill, of course if we are in danger or angry instinct can take over. I also think every leaving being has some kind of "genetic imprint" that prevents from endangering the specie.

[gaggle64]

I really don't think not murdering someone goes far beyond empathy as a basic group survival instinct. It works both ways too. Only psychotics murder purely for the sake of killing others. It's often to defend or expand their territory, their wealth their way of life, protect themselves and their loved ones and so on. All of the most vicious gang cartels often exist in very tight nit groups or communities (Mafia, Yakuza ect.), which offers a means of survival and often subsequently something or someone to kill for, to defend against rival gangs or maybe even to take revenge for. If we didn't have empathy we wouldn't have any concept of avenging someone's death.

 

Because we empathise with a person, if they are hurt we can feel hurt too, and may even want to hurt someone else because we want to make them feel how we feel. Some aren't always able to empathise with everybody, some even choose not to sometimes. Luckily for most of us our ability to empathise is strong enough to stop us from doing crazy stuff. You would never jab your best friend in the eye just because you felt like it, even if you could get away with it.

[Charlie]

It is, like it or not, human nature to kill or harm people when in danger. You could argue that when your life is in danger it is justified to kill the danger. I know if it was a choice between me killing someone (I don't know or don't like) or getting killed myself I would kill them every single time. I also like to think (although if this happens the chances are I wouldn't do this) if it were a choice between my life and one of my friends, it would be mine.

[Haden]

We are social beings (well we should be), and as such, even if we benefit from such action, it would never be enough to justify the need to kill, of course if we are in danger or angry instinct can take over. I also think every leaving being has some kind of "genetic imprint" that prevents from endangering the specie.

 

Again thanks for the replies. Ok firstly We should be? Do you mean should as in gentically or should as in ought to be moral? But what I am saying is. As humans we have the ability to overide natual impulses and if I wanted to I could overide any mechanics to murder someone if I wanted to.

 

I really don't think not murdering someone goes far beyond empathy as a basic group survival instinct. It works both ways too. Only psychotics murder purely for the sake of killing others. It's often to defend or expand their territory, their wealth their way of life, protect themselves and their loved ones and so on. All of the most vicious gang cartels often exist in very tight nit groups or communities (Mafia, Yakuza ect.), which offers a means of survival and often subsequently something or someone to kill for, to defend against rival gangs or maybe even to take revenge for. If we didn't have empathy we wouldn't have any concept of avenging someone's death.

 

Because we empathise with a person, if they are hurt we can feel hurt too, and may even want to hurt someone else because we want to make them feel how we feel. Some aren't always able to empathise with everybody, some even choose not to sometimes. Luckily for most of us our ability to empathise is strong enough to stop us from doing crazy stuff. You would never jab your best friend in the eye just because you felt like it, even if you could get away with it.

 

I think this is going off on a slightly different tangent. I dont mean random violence. I mean cold hard selfish gain that isn't justified by any moral system. But is caculated and not random.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I also like to think (although if this happens the chances are I wouldn't do this) if it were a choice between my life and one of my friends, it would be mine.

 

But is that how you would really react? You just don't know. Not until you are in that situation, and i really hope that none of us here are ever put in that kind of danger. If you had something shouting at you, threatening to kill you and your friends and waving a knife in your face, would you plead with them to let you die and your friends live? Or would you plead to keep you life? You'll never know until it happens.

[Haden]

It is, like it or not, human nature to kill or harm people when in danger. You could argue that when your life is in danger it is justified to kill the danger. I know if it was a choice between me killing someone (I don't know or don't like) or getting killed myself I would kill them every single time. I also like to think (although if this happens the chances are I wouldn't do this) if it were a choice between my life and one of my friends, it would be mine.

 

Hey Moria welcome to the thread. Your point addresses a question but not really the one in the thread. I am basically asking why I shouldn't murder someone if I could gain from it and conqer the group genitic imprint that if I am an atheist would be the only thing troubling me.

[Charlie]

But is that how you would really react? You just don't know. Not until you are in that situation, and i really hope that none of us here are ever put in that kind of danger. If you had something shouting at you, threatening to kill you and your friends and waving a knife in your face, would you plead with them to let you die and your friends live? Or would you plead to keep you life? You'll never know until it happens.

 

Yeah, that's why I had that part in brackets. That's what I would hope I would do.

[Aimless]

I am basically asking why I shouldn't murder someone if I could gain from it and conqer the group genitic imprint that if I am an atheist would be the only thing troubling me.

So you are talking about killing someone unprovoked purely for personal gain?

[Shino]

Again thanks for the replies. Ok firstly We should be? Do you mean should as in gentically or should as in ought to be moral? But what I am saying is. As humans we have the ability to overide natual impulses and if I wanted to I could overide any mechanics to murder someone if I wanted to.

 

We should be in the sense that for millions of years we lived in packs and now we're a giant one. We need each other to survive. And that kind of society created a morality standard, and made us humans. Someone who kills for his own gain with out any kind of moral barriers is certainly not human or at least mentally ill.

[Haden]

So you are talking about killing someone unprovoked purely for personal gain?

 

Exactly

 

We should be in the sense that for millions of years we lived in packs and now we're a giant one. We need each other to survive. And that kind of society created a morality standard, and made us humans. Someone who kills for his own gain with out any kind of moral barriers is certainly not human or at least mentally ill.

 

You think so? That would make a hell of a lot of people unhuman or mentally ill. And I mean loads and loads and loads. But what is the problem with this if we just have this standard dont kill people thought because of evolution?

[LazyBoy]

Wow, quite a thread. Well if you don't mind, i'd like to start a little deaper. Animals in there natural habitat will kill if not doing so will impead their ability to pass on their genetic code. Now many argue that many aspects of morality defy this notion, thus seperating us from the animals, to use a much spoken phrase. Aiding the weak, and empathising with our rivals, all actions that can adversly effect our ability to thrive. And this is your question, why is there this morality, and why is it stopping us from, for example, commiting murder for our own gain.

 

My arguement is this. We are no different from the animals, we have the same final goal, to pass on our 'seed'. We're just smarter. So you cheat on your girlfriend, you feel guilty. But its that you care about her. No thats what you may tell yourself but its not. You worry about you, indirectly through her, and how you're going to get it on with her, or any other girl, when she can't trust you. You worry about your ultimate goal. And that's the same with any case where your 'conscience' come into play.

 

Murder, morality. Why don't we shoot the guy. How you going to have kids when you are locked up in the slammer. Now I know you're thinking if you can get away with, but even the slightest possibility it could go wrong would stop you. My arguement is that morality is our brain's own safeguard against stopping our genetic code, and it overides and other idea of profiting in a situation.

 

Again, great thread.

[Konfucius]

I think besides our moral standards the experience with death also prevents us from killing.

I think most of us already experienced someone loved die and with this we also respect life.

When I was a little child I for instance didn't understand why the police wasn't allowed to shoot a criminal except for the legs...

But eventually I had the phase where I suddenly realized that I was going to die once as well.

 

I also think that it's not always outer moral that prevents something but self-developed moral based on experiences like death for instance.

I follow the moral codex of "don't do anything to others you don't want them to do to you" (incidently the actual Confucious also said that) but I know that many people don't have such a sentiment - especially not children.

 

Now to also anwer that question.

I certainly wouldn't kill anyone for personal gain but in this case not because I think killing is immoral but I wouldn't harm anyone else to get an advantage.

If I had to protect myself or someone I love I would certainly be able to kill another person. Especially when I'm going mad I only think about my survival.

 

 

Edit: I just noticed the irony of my post, looking at my Stewie Sig.

[Haden]

Wow, quite a thread. Well if you don't mind, i'd like to start a little deaper. Animals in there natural habitat will kill if not doing so will impead their ability to pass on their genetic code. Now many argue that many aspects of morality defy this notion, thus seperating us from the animals, to use a much spoken phrase. Aiding the weak, and empathising with our rivals, all actions that can adversly effect our ability to thrive. And this is your question, why is there this morality, and why is it stopping us from, for example, commiting murder for our own gain.

 

My arguement is this. We are no different from the animals, we have the same final goal, to pass on our 'seed'. We're just smarter. So you cheat on your girlfriend, you feel guilty. But its that you care about her. No thats what you may tell yourself but its not. You worry about you, indirectly through her, and how you're going to get it on with her, or any other girl, when she can't trust you. You worry about your ultimate goal. And that's the same with any case where your 'conscience' come into play.

 

Murder, morality. Why don't we shoot the guy. How you going to have kids when you are locked up in the slammer. Now I know you're thinking if you can get away with, but even the slightest possibility it could go wrong would stop you. My arguement is that morality is our brain's own safeguard against stopping our genetic code, and it overides and other idea of profiting in a situation.

 

Again, great thread.

 

I think besides our moral standards the experience with death also prevents us from killing.

I think most of us already experienced someone loved die and with this we also respect life.

When I was a little child I for instance didn't understand why the police wasn't allowed to shoot a criminal except for the legs...

But eventually I had the phase where I suddenly realized that I was going to die once as well.

 

I also think that it's not always outer moral that prevents something but self-developed moral based on experiences like death for instance.

I follow the moral codex of "don't do anything to others you don't want them to do to you" (incidently the actual Confucious also said that) but I know that many people don't have such a sentiment - especially not children.

 

Now to also anwer that question.

I certainly wouldn't kill anyone for personal gain but in this case not because I think killing is immoral but I wouldn't harm anyone else to get an advantage.

If I had to protect myself or someone I love I would certainly be able to kill another person. Especially when I'm going mad I only think about my survival.

 

 

Edit: I just noticed the irony of my post, looking at my Stewie Sig.

 

Thanks for the uber replies! The thing is I kind of feel that its so reductionist to reuce everything to biology and past evolutionary events.

 

What I am saying is that with logic we know all of this and can overide it. What I am saying is that there is no chance you can be caught at all. Or you are the law or something. And this has happened plenty of times. Why would it be wrong to do it? Noone has answered my question yet :/. I am not saying if it can or cant be done I am just asking why I shouldnt.

 

But thanks for all the opinions etc guys!

[Aimless]

You're assuming altruism doesn't exist, accepting undying human selfishness as fact. It is easy to think the worst of people, easy to rationalise every action as one born of underlying selfishness, but the ease of a conclusion does not make it true.

 

But that's another discussion altogether.

 

Empathy, morality: these things make humanity, we see them as what sets us apart from beasts. If you were to kill someone unprovoked purely for personal gain you relinquish these things, give up that which 'makes us human' — you become something 'less'. We earned — through evolution — the right to hold morality, and it is a right too precious to let go.

 

I'm sure many people have killed without batting an eyelid, have reveled in their profits with an uncaring grin. But would you choose to be such a person, given the choice? These people are not the future, not advancement: they retard social evolution. And that is something modern humans hold dear, their ostensible ability to evolve through choice and perseverance; we are born wanting — no, needing — to learn and to create. Humanity is ambitious and in awe of its own potential: conquer the seas, conquer the stars, and sail them both with confidence, secure in the knowledge that we are 'better' than the fish below and the birds above, for we make our own path.

 

Humans are stubborn creatures, and we do not like to give in or give up.

 

What I am saying is that with logic we know all of this and can overide it. What I am saying is that there is no chance you can be caught at all. Or you are the law or something. And this has happened plenty of times. Why would it be wrong to do it? Noone has answered my question yet :/. I am not saying if it can or cant be done I am just asking why I shouldnt.

If I purposefully killed someone that did nothing to provoke it, I wouldn't just lose humanity but myself; I'm not a killer, so the killer wouldn't be me, so what does that leave? Nothing. I'd be nothing.

 

Who doesn't fear oblivion?

 

Oh, and if logic is killing unprovoked, then call me illogical; I'd rather go through life with feeling.

[Dan_Dare]

I'm having trouble getting into your assumption that an atheist has no moral foundation to follow. You seem to be ignoring the fact that a secular legal system and all that implies is based on moral obligation. stealing is morally wrong and thus you should be punished for doing so.