If Wii has more power than an Xbox...

[Dilli Gee]

I doubt they can fit 1080 textures in those discs and 360 won't handle it.

As said above, 1080p support will be added soon, in time for the HD-DVD player. It seems likely there'll be HDMI support too.

 

And if HD-DVD takes off, they'll probably be built in next year sometime, with the external player being sold even cheaper for those who don't have the built-in version (it's current price will probably be around $180).

 

I think in 2 years time we'll see Xbox 360 HD titles, that will only work with the HD-DVD player. They designed the Xbox 360 for such things. And before you jump on my ass, Nintendo did the same thing with the expansion pack on N64.

[pedrocasilva]

Well Factor 5 had their hands deep in the research and development of the Gamecube so it is really unfair to have them as an example. Well assuming shaders just work different and not more difficult on the Gamecube that would lead to the point that now developers shouldn't have any problems.

Not unfair when you know they wouldn't have any problem in doing computer shaders, thus, their knowledge of both platforms makes reasonable to use their word, also, they aren't a Nintendo first/second party thus they won't feel obligated to do PR talk.

Well I thought about the PC version of Splinter Cell - because as a 2004/05 game it represents the standards which a next-gen console should achieve without any problems. I believe developers are too lazy and just hit the Wii with mediocre titles because Nintendo doesn't force them and or because developers are not sure if they should allocate so many resources to the Wii. After all the Gamecube came out in 2001 and I gues 5 years later the technology changed drastically - as in the PC sector CPU/GPUs change about every 6 months. So 5 years are 10 cycles of new ideas, clock speed boosts, innovations.

I wouldn't count it that way though, sure they always make increments every 6 months or so, but really new generations? on PC desktops I'd rather classify that as DirectX generations, 8 to 9 to 10, and Shader Model 1, 2, and 3.

 

When Xbox came out we were on directX 8 with directX 9 coming and shader model 1... xbox had some implementations for directX 9 already.

 

Now we are on directX 9 with directX 10 coming, Xbox 360 has some DirectX 10 optimizations despite being still direct X 9 and shader model is 3.

 

See my rift? it's is what I'd rather call a whole generation cycle, not a small DirectX revision, a new core with more MHz or more RAM.

MS will release a software update which will allow playback of 1080p and will also enable a 1080p resolution for games. So you can upscale games but it also supports a native 1080p resolution for new games. So far MS will stick with 720p but third party developers will do 1080p (Source: dreisechzig.net/wp - german MS product manager)

I did knew about the announcement but I didn't knew Microsoft would be letting the developers use that mode for games (only upscaling), anyway... 1080p will come with heavy sacrifices, there might be some games using it, but they should be built from ground to do it. And you can't expect as many polygons and lightning applied, still it might show good graphics that way, with good design.

2 dual-layer DVDs? HD-DVD for movies and I am quite sure before the next MS console comes out the HD-DVD addon will be used for games aswell. Size is the smalles problem - after all on PC we still use normal DVDs with quite good textures ... and those are not for 640x480 ;-)

Microsoft said that they won't use HD DVD discs for games until now, that could always change though, but they'd need a rather big userbase with it, or a big pricedrop, $170 is a expensive upgrade on a console you've already paid for and where you just want to play a game, and don't want to see HD DVD's there.

 

There was (at least one) game for xbox supporting 1080i, it was horrible and had lots of slowdown :p I'd rather have developers sticking with 720p seriously, anyway, I think this will be like the 720p trend, PGR3 is actually more like 600p, it fails short to be HD compatible (due to being a launch title)

Indeed it is and a developer has to ask himself wether it is worthy to sacrifice 720p game with stable framerate over 1080p which might have a few framedrops. Also the majority of HD TV owners has just 720p sets - there are not many with a full HD TV yet.

Some? you can count on a lot of frame drops in a normal game.

But 3 cores with 512MB RAM and the Xenos GPU are enough once developers manage to efficiently code for the plattform - same goes for PS3. On the other hand the Wii is single core and a already well known architecture so I don't expect such big leaps in performance when it comes to graphics.

I don't think you'd need to depend so much on the cores for Xbox 360 to handle 1080p as that's not that CPU dependent. 1080p will hammer the RAM though, more than 150 MB framebuffers will be needed for this, note that in 1080p crisper textures are needed, it would be ideal to have more RAM available, not less, and those 10 MB of eDRAM will really suffer, they are not enough for 720p let alone 1080p. IMO 60 frames will be close to impossible on 1080p, and what will happen to the publicized "4x free AA?"

 

Yeah... sacrifices.

 

If it wasn't for that amount of eDRAM and the free 4x I'd say it was ideal/possible for a fighting game, but never for a adventure game (without heavy sacrifices.

 

As said above, 1080p support will be added soon, in time for the HD-DVD player. It seems likely there'll be HDMI support too.

 

And if HD-DVD takes off, they'll probably be built in next year sometime, with the external player being sold even cheaper for those who don't have the built-in version (it's current price will probably be around $180).

 

I think in 2 years time we'll see Xbox 360 HD titles, that will only work with the HD-DVD player. They designed the Xbox 360 for such things. And before you jump on my ass, Nintendo did the same thing with the expansion pack on N64.

That's daydreaming really, don't expect 1080p for most games, if at all. I'd certainly not use that mode in X360. You can always fight the machine but seriously...

 

As for that 2 year "timeline" we'll see, I wouldn't be surprised with Microsoft jumping on the HD DVD bandwagon though, DVD is too small for their HD ambitions, it works but... simply put HD DVD would be better.

[ZeldaFreak]

May I reply to the fact you are saying developers are lazy, developers arn't the lazy ones its the companies like Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony. Its their fault they are the ones who should give these developers the best compilers around as massive libraies of every possible effect and make it that they can create a beautiful game in a couple of months.

 

EDIT: Its 1080i/p thing will be Blue Dragon,Lost Oddysey and Trusty Bell

[Cleveland_Jr]

May I reply to the fact you are saying developers are lazy, developers arn't the lazy ones its the companies like Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony. Its their fault they are the ones who should give these developers the best compilers around as massive libraies of every possible effect and make it that they can create a beautiful game in a couple of months.

And then they'll invent some sort of device that you plug into your head and it instantly teaches you how to make a game based on a new controller technology like in the matrix...and then youll wake up and it was all a dream and youll realise that its not that simple.

[Ren of Heavens]

The fact that the best-looking Wii title is a Gamecube game (Zelda) says that the visual improvements from GC to Wii is nonexistant so far. Hopefully when developers have had a year or two with the final devkits they will bring out something close to the graphics in first-generation 360/PS3 titles in 480p.

[Matias]

are you really judging an Xbox game that was practically 1st part, has been finished and released to a 3rd party game that's probably like 10% done?

 

There's a cool video out there of Wing Island (the game from your screenshot) which you can see the hand of the guy controlling it and see what's happening on the screen at the same time. IGN have it. When i first watch that i was like :shock: and for some reason

[DCK]

I would love to mingle in the hardware discussion here (go Pedro!) but as I'm lazy I'll just say this:

This is a 98% GameCube game.

[Blue_Ninja0]

The fact that the best-looking Wii title is a Gamecube game (Zelda) says that the visual improvements from GC to Wii is nonexistant so far. Hopefully when developers have had a year or two with the final devkits they will bring out something close to the graphics in first-generation 360/PS3 titles in 480p.

 

I'm going to disagree with you. It's hard to see in movies, but Zelda is not the best visual wonder on Wii. Galaxy and MP3 hold that spot IMO. But i'm not going to say too much because Zelda looks really good anyway.

 

I wouldn't bet on first generation 360 titles on the end of Wii's lifecycle. Only time will tell, but RE4 and TP (as a GC game) teached us something.

 

EDIT: Damn... i tend to forget how great this game looks.

[Phube]

I'm sorry did I miss something in this (and the Graphic/Bulls*** debate). Has anybody seen the graphics on a finalised (i.e. shop purchased) Wii game?? Has anybody seen the graphics on a finalised PS3 game??

 

Can't we have these discussions when we bloody well 'see' them ourselves!!! ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!

[DCK]

I wouldn't bet on first generation 360 titles on the end of Wii's lifecycle. Only time will tell, but RE4 and TP (as a GC game) teached us something.

Personally, when watching the SMG videos, I doubt that game would look bad on a 360. It won't be top notch, but it certainly looks a lot better than the previous generation.

[system_error]

I would love to mingle in the hardware discussion here (go Pedro!) but as I'm lazy I'll just say this:

This is a 98% GameCube game.

 

That is a Nintendo first party game - their top franchise which is in development for a few years already so I did not expect anything else than pure greatness. If the Gamecube can do something like that shouldn't it be easy to do something similar on Wii hardware in a much shorter time?

[DCK]

That is a Nintendo first party game - their top franchise which is in development for a few years already so I did not expect anything else than pure greatness. If the Gamecube can do something like that shouldn't it be easy to do something similar on Wii hardware in a much shorter time?

Exactly

 

That's my point. The developers need more time. Most launch games have only had 6 months (or less) of final devkit development time and I'm pretty not much have bothered to even try going beyond what they had on the GameCube, maybe Red Steel being alone in that. I'm certain there are games that look as the Nintendo games in development right now. Maybe Splinter Cell can already show us that.

[triforcemario]

Well, my opinion of the Wii graphics is this: If the Wii is capable of doing last generation GC graphics in 1st gen Wii games, then I can easily imagine the last gen Wii games looking a lot like XBOX 360 games (the ones with good graphics, that is).

[James McGeachie]

That's not how it works with Wii sadly. Developers improve visuals over time on consoles as they get used to the hardware and figure out how to squeeze more juice out of it. Games will get better looking on Wii but it wont be as drastic an improvement as usual because the hardware is so nearly identical to Gamecube's, hence developers are already very familiar with it.

 

I expect near the end of the Wii's lifecycle there'll be some games that look a good deal "better" than RE4, but dont expect games at the level of Gears of War or anything like that on the Wii ever.

[Kurtle Squad]

Look at it this way...There shouldn't be any games that look like Geist or Turok.

[James McGeachie]

Not every development team has the ability to pull off amazing visuals on every system, although some could pull off a good looking next gen game but a bad looking current gen, it kind of depends on how they work and their knowledge of different programming techniques and what not as well as how well they know the system itself.

[Dilli Gee]

I'm sorry did I miss something in this (and the Graphic/Bulls*** debate). Has anybody seen the graphics on a finalised (i.e. shop purchased) Wii game?? Has anybody seen the graphics on a finalised PS3 game??

Zelda is pretty much finalised, but nothing has been 100% confirmed. But PS3's in-development titles are superior to Wii's in-development titles, so it's fair enough to make a comparison.

 

But I don't care about Wii not having the power of a PS3. I'm annoyed that they don't have 360 graphical capabilities, regardless of the type of game. For £180, they could very easily be MORE powerful than the Xbox 360, but for whatever reason they have chosen not to be.

 

I'm actually pissed off now, because I thought Wii had both widescreen capabilities, and 5.1 surround sound.

 

I've just found out the widescreen option is optional for developers, so some games will be full-screen, and there's no 5.1 support. Both really should have been made compulsory.

[Hellfire]

I don't anything should ever be mandatory, devs do what they want, if they feel it's better not to do widescreen, let them.

[Dilli Gee]

I don't anything should ever be mandatory, devs do what they want, if they feel it's better not to do widescreen, let them.

In the modern digital age, that's not a wise choice. Especially in the UK, where everything (even TV) is widescreen. After 2010, we'll only be able to watch TV in widescreen (or letterboxed on full-screen sets).

 

And I think there's no reason AT ALL for a game not to be in widescreen. None at all. Not even the slightest possibility of a reason. No. Reason. At. All.

 

Widescreen on full-screen isn't a problem. Full-screen on widescreen is a problem.

 

Just as HD on SDTV isn't a problem, but SD on HDTV is (sometimes).

[critter171]

first that was in 2004 06.... it was awhile ago ....

 

and they havnet got much of the grapchilly power on the wii.

[SpinesN]

In the modern digital age, that's not a wise choice. Especially in the UK, where everything (even TV) is widescreen. After 2010, we'll only be able to watch TV in widescreen (or letterboxed on full-screen sets).

 

And I think there's no reason AT ALL for a game not to be in widescreen. None at all. Not even the slightest possibility of a reason. No. Reason. At. All.

 

Widescreen on full-screen isn't a problem. Full-screen on widescreen is a problem.

 

Just as HD on SDTV isn't a problem, but SD on HDTV is (sometimes).

Err.... who's gonna cut the full screen broadcasts now? btw I assume you are refering to the digital broadcast date here in the states (pssst look at the freaking name of the site). Also that is simply the date analoge broadcasts will end (digital != widescreen).

Beyond all that the wii is set to outpot 480p (widescreen) as the default resolution.

[fukudasolokomalakikenanze]

Wii does have more power than XBOX.

[Raven]

I'm actually pissed off now, because I thought Wii had both widescreen capabilities, and 5.1 surround sound.

 

I've just found out the widescreen option is optional for developers, so some games will be full-screen, and there's no 5.1 support. Both really should have been made compulsory.

 

http://www.n-europe.com/news.php?nid=9596

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/prologic_II.html

read these. basically, it's another Nintendo trick to get the best out of their system while keeping cost low.

 

Anyway. this thread has become quite big! It's amazing how a lot of people will say how they love the Wii and that graphics aren't everything... and then arc up in this thread!

 

I would like to thanks Mario_jr for providing me with a laugh with the vote for pedro comment. I found that very amusing, especially since I watched that movie again this morning...

I would also like to send a big "nice work" out to Pedro on that note.

 

This is the point where I give my view.

 

When watching videos of the Wii games. I did not once say that ANY of them had amazing graphics. I thought that Mario Galaxy looked very colourful, but I didnt think "Wow! Mario is the graphicest character around!!!"

I was watching the movies and judging them on their 'coolness', and funnily enough, graphics never entered my head until people started bitching about them (as people do...)

 

Everyone in this forum would have to agree that Mario64>>>>Mario Sunshine.

 

So come on guys. Cool it. This whole system is about innovation, not graphics. We ARE at a stage where graphics are amazing, and almost lifelike (MGS4), and now have to have an element of gameplay to be considered good.

[Hellfire]

 

And I think there's no reason AT ALL for a game not to be in widescreen. None at all. Not even the slightest possibility of a reason. No. Reason. At. All.

 

That's where you're wrong, widescreen takes more RAM, so there is a reason for non widescreen. Of course that with the graphics we've been seeing I doubt RAM's actually a problem. You talk like Wii can't display widescreen, but it's just up to the devs. I don't know if this had any influence but since they started working on GC kits it's possible it made a difference.

[Mikey]

I've got Halo 2, and it isn't that great graphically. It can look very nice at times, but a lot of the time it can have a lot of texture pop up, and look textureless. Resi 4 on the GC is better looking.

 

Oh, and one more thing, Wii is more powerful than the Xbox. There was an interview on IGN, where a guy from Ubisoft said it was. So there ya go.