Haden Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Can a request be made for everyone to chill a bit? Ending posts with Brilliant in sarcasm and Christians are stupid is not contructive and not a mature proffesional way of arguing your point. I realise not being a mod I have no formal powers but just appealing to your objective morality!!!! Ok this is no place for jokes its the religion thread but if everyone could detach themselves and be a little politer it would be nice of course I realise to Haver im a outcast from his utopia now but outcasts like politness to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I agree, Haden. Let's all chill out a bit. I feel like I've made some enemies in this thread, but I love you anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReZourceman Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Can a request be made for everyone to chill a bit? Ending posts with Brilliant in sarcasm and Christians are stupid is not contructive and not a mature proffesional way of arguing your point. Seconded. Why discriminate just the Christians, when all religion is made of epic phailz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksnowman Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I suppose that's what you get for trying to argue philosophy on a Nintendo message board. In fairness to the board, the arguments involving Nintendo are pretty much as unfounded and mindless. :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReZourceman Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 In fairness to the board, the arguments involving Nintendo are pretty much as unfounded and mindless. :wink: Fecking amazing post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluey Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 chillax everyone this calls for the world's most giant orangest smiley~ :-) something about this thread turns me into such a hippie *sends you all happy thoughts* ...yah. i'ma go put the kettle on. anyone want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haver Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It is always best to be civil, of course, but people are arguing around and past each other. Let us be clear: atheism is disbelief. We do not have to make any claims about the universe, only to expressive disbelief in theism. We do that successfully without doubt. So then, and on that basis, let us return to my earlier post: Is there evidence that refutes the claims of every human religion? Yes. So it is rational to not believe. Is there evidence to support the claims of any human religion? No. So it is not rational to believe. If there were evidence for a God, which would certainly not be a Christian God or a Muslim God or any of the others, would it be rational to believe? Yes. Do we have any? No. There are things we do not understand yet, but this does not mean they will never be. It certainly says nothing about God. THAT IS WEAK-MINDED, and an insult to the individual, to the human. Please, read atheist books. We read yours (and laugh, of course)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReZourceman Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The above post is win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It is always best to be civil, of course, but people are arguing around and past each other. Let us be clear: atheism is disbelief. We do not have to make any claims about the universe, only to expressive disbelief in theism. We do that successfully without doubt. So then, and on that basis, let us return to my earlier post: Is there evidence that refutes the claims of every human religion? Yes. So it is rational to not believe. Is there evidence to support the claims of any human religion? No. So it is not rational to believe. If there were evidence for a God, which would certainly not be a Christian God or a Muslim God or any of the others, would it be rational to believe? Yes. Do we have any? No. There are things we do not understand yet, but this does not mean they will never be. It certainly says nothing about God. THAT IS WEAK-MINDED, and an insult to the individual, to the human. Please, read atheist books. We read yours (and laugh, of course)... All you've shown is that religion is not science, which everyone, religious or otherwise, should already know. Religion is based on the principle of faith, which is by definition not necessarily rational - if you believe that faith is a flawed device, then by all means be an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 All part of the universe. Can't explain the universe with reference to things within it. Yes you can. Things are the sum of their parts. The universe is most likely a constant that changes its from with continual expansion and contraction. There is a set amount of energy, and if you so much as dare say "where did that energy come from", I shall explode, because there is no currently visible alternative explanation, not once Occam's Razor has done the rounds. For the record, energy is simpler than an infinitely complex transdimensional thing. Anyway, back on topic: I'm currently reading the Koran! Anyone else given it a look? It's pretty good, for the most part, although the competition isn't really up to much. (Yes, I am looking at you, Mr. Bible...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haver Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Atheists are not afraid of the unknown, unlike the pious. Also: if we arguing that blind faith has value, then we can end the discussion. Edit: I have a Koran too. I've been reading The Caged Virgin and I wanted to get some references to what the author was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Atheists are not afraid of the unknown, unlike the pious. Also: if we arguing that blind faith has value, then we can end the discussion. That's the thing - religion works on blind faith. If you don't like blind faith, then religion isn't for you. And if you're pious, then there surely is no unknown for you, whereas there is a great deal of unknown for atheists. And some (but by no means all) atheists are afraid of this unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haver Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I'm not arguing with you on the first point. Certain posters have made it their point that believing in a creator is not irrational. Second point: sure they know everything, because it is inconceivable to them that we might be unintentional. On being afraid: not of it *being* unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 And some (but by no means all) atheists are afraid of this unknown. Scares the hell out of me And the end is all I can see And it scares the hell out of me And the end is all I can see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Scares the hell out of me And the end is all I can see And it scares the hell out of me And the end is all I can see Ohhhh Yeah Yeah! Yeaaah Yeaaaah! Yeaaah Ohhhh Ohhh Oh! Sorry, I just had to finish eet. Haver and 'Grunch, carry on. This is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Ohhhh Yeah Yeah! Yeaaah Yeaaaah! Yeaaah Ohhhh Ohhh Oh! Sorry, I just had to finish eet. Haver and 'Grunch, carry on. This is interesting. Cookie for Flinky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 My attempt to get this thread a little more back on track failed somewhat, but +30 respect points for appropriate use of Muse lyrics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Let us be clear: atheism is disbelief. We do not have to make any claims about the universe, only to expressive disbelief in theism. We do that successfully without doubt. It depends what level atheism you subscribe to really. Crude atheism doesnt amount to simply expressing scepticism - that's closer to agnosticism. Is there evidence that refutes the claims of every human religion? Yes. So it is rational to not believe. I don't think there is evidence that completely refutes the claims of every human religion. Demonstrating differences in the two Creation accounts in Genesis, for example, doesn't refute all the claims of Christianity or Judaism. Most Christians subscribe to 'Biblical infallibility' which holds that the Bible is inerrant on issues of faith and practice but not history or science, as opposed to 'Biblical inerrancy' which asserts that the Bible is completely without error. Furthermore, even if all human religions were refuted, this would not affect the credibility of belief in the simple existence of God. Is there evidence to support the claims of any human religion? No. So it is not rational to believe. I believe there is evidence for Christianity, but it is of a different nature than you are perhaps looking for. To quote William Lane Craig, God doesn’t force himself upon us. He has given evidence of Himself which is sufficiently clear for those with an open mind and an open heart, but sufficiently vague so as to not to compel those who hearts are closed. The great French mathematical genius Blaise Pascal, who came to know God through Jesus Christ at the age of 31, put it this way: Willing to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from him with all their heart, God so regulates the knowledge of himself that he has given indications of himself which are visible to those who seek him and not to those who do not seek him. There is enough light for those to see who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition. In other words, the evidence is there for those who have eyes to see. If as Christianity asserts, God wants us to freely come to faith in Him, then God could never fully reveal himself, for it would coerce and compel us to believe, requiring no faith and violating our freedom in the matter. Read the full article if you want an expansion on the kind of evidence that is cited. Here's the link. Please, read atheist books. We read yours (and laugh, of course)... Sure thing. I don't mind feeling challenged - we can't be complacent afterall. You should read some theist books too. I'd recommend starting with Richard Swinburne, 'The Existence of God' and if you want a useful exploration of the thinking behind Christianity then read C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksnowman Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Scares the hell out of me And the end is all I can see And it scares the hell out of me And the end is all I can see Ohhhh Yeah Yeah! Yeaaah Yeaaaah! Yeaaah Ohhhh Ohhh Oh! Sorry, I just had to finish eet. Haver and 'Grunch, carry on. This is interesting. Guys guys guys, you'd think I would be impressed but... this isn't thread for it. P.S C.S Lewis is well worth reading through. He's from N. Ireland isn't he? Oh yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Guys guys guys, you'd think I would be impressed but... this isn't thread for it. P.S C.S Lewis is well worth reading through. He's from N. Ireland isn't he? Oh yeah. It was completely relevant. Well Flinky's wasn't but mine was :p I was expecting you to post and lambast Flink for using the wrong amount of Yeahs or something :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the great Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 if i might be so bold, aithiests require faith as much as any religious people. the difference is they have faith in science. you gef in a jet, which scientists are unsure of quiet how it flys, and you have faith it will fly, even though you dont know how. your faith is in your notion of the world rather then the word of the bible, koran or what ever is holy to you. how many people can explain exactly how their computer works? yet we have faith that it will. faith in logic "it worked last time so it will work today". is this foolish? i have faith in my self, that i'll have the strength and courage to stand up for myself no matter what, but i belive the strength and courage comes from me, not god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 the difference is they have faith in science. you gef in a jet, which scientists are unsure of quiet how it flys, and you have faith it will fly, even though you dont know how. your faith is in your notion of the world rather then the word of the bible, koran or what ever is holy to you. Scientists don't know how a jet flies? Well, that makes me special, because I do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haver Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It depends what level atheism you subscribe to really. Crude atheism doesnt amount to simply expressing scepticism - that's closer to agnosticism. Atheism is simple disbelief. There is no dogma. We are not the Yes camp. We are the No camp. Atheists can be other things, and make other claims, but atheists as a group do not have to make any claims about anything. I don't think there is evidence that completely refutes the claims of every human religion. Demonstrating differences in the two Creation accounts in Genesis, for example, doesn't refute all the claims of Christianity or Judaism. Most Christians subscribe to 'Biblical infallibility' which holds that the Bible is inerrant on issues of faith and practice but not history or science, as opposed to 'Biblical inerrancy' which asserts that the Bible is completely without error. So you can take it a la carte? Furthermore, even if all human religions were refuted, this would not affect the credibility of belief in the simple existence of God. That credibility is currently at 0, this is to say it has none, and so cannot rise or fall. Plus, all human religions can be refuted in one way or another. They are all plagiarisms. I believe there is evidence for Christianity, but it is of a different nature than you are perhaps looking for. To quote William Lane Craig,If as Christianity asserts, God wants us to freely come to faith in Him, then God could never fully reveal himself, for it would coerce and compel us to believe, requiring no faith and violating our freedom in the matter. Read the full article if you want an expansion on the kind of evidence that is cited. Here's the link. This is crazy talk. Literally without sanity. Sure thing. I don't mind feeling challenged - we can't be complacent afterall. You should read some theist books too. I'd recommend starting with Richard Swinburne, 'The Existence of God' and if you want a useful exploration of the thinking behind Christianity then read C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity'. The Atheist Soc at my university has a library with those three in. We are having a monthly book club and I think Mere Christianity is on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 On being afraid: not of it *being* unknown. Do you mean fear of God? I think that probably depends on religion and sect quite a lot, but I see what you mean. P.S C.S Lewis is well worth reading through. He's from N. Ireland isn't he? Oh yeah. He went to my college. :wink: if i might be so bold, aithiests require faith as much as any religious people. the difference is they have faith in science. you gef in a jet, which scientists are unsure of quiet how it flys, and you have faith it will fly, even though you dont know how. your faith is in your notion of the world rather then the word of the bible, koran or what ever is holy to you. how many people can explain exactly how their computer works? yet we have faith that it will. faith in logic "it worked last time so it will work today". is this foolish? i have faith in my self, that i'll have the strength and courage to stand up for myself no matter what, but i belive the strength and courage comes from me, not god. In science you should only have faith in the scientific principle. Atheism is simple disbelief. There is no dogma. We are not the Yes camp. We are the No camp. What about the central dogma of biochemistry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haver Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 On the unknown: I mean literally the Fear of what we do not know. All the Heroes stuff. Why are we here, what is our purpose, what created the universe, why am I moral etc etc. Well actually I know the answer to the first two: no reason, and none, but that's apropos to nothing. The pious see things that we do not understand and weak-mindedly submit themselves to all-answering mythology. Atheists, however, say We Don't Know, and we may never know, but we're fine with that. We don't need the easy answer. God is the easy answer. Biochemistry: I won't pretend to be qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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