Chrono Cross: The Radical Dreamers Edition (Out Now!)

[darksnowman]

@Julius I'm all for speculating and enjoying the "will they won't they" in the build-up to a game's release, but the way people spat the dummy is what I don't particularly like seeing. Okay, it wasn't crystal clear but that was the other day and the game is out next week. It's not a long time to wait and see what the final product is like.  

I've seen the FF VII & VIII pack on shelves which is what gives me a glimmer of hope. It was originally Asia only too as far as I mind.

[Julius]

18 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Doubt i'll get it straight away. Like you, i've got other games/JRPGs higher on the priority list. I'm tempted to finally fire up NEO: The World Ends With You or one of the Tales of...games i've got sat on the shelf.

Yeah, it's exactly looking over at my shelf which made me say "well I wanna buy it, but..." - I hate being an adult and having to make sensible decisions 

For me it's Xenoblade Chronicles (Future Connected or 2) or, much more likely, another Dragon Quest. 

18 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

This did eventually get released over here but it's the only one.

Oh yeah you're right it did, totally forgot about that! 

14 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

@Julius I'm all for speculating and enjoying the "will they won't they" in the build-up to a game's release, but the way people spat the dummy is what I don't particularly like seeing. Okay, it wasn't crystal clear but that was the other day and the game is out next week. It's not a long time to wait and see what the final product is like.  

Oh yeah that's totally fair, I can see where you're coming from. Think it's a combination of Square Enix just not making the messaging clear as clear as they probably should have and, like you said before, people just going a bit too far with it elsewhere. It would have sucked (I mean, especially over here), but yeah, at least we seem to have some clarity on it now 

16 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

I've seen the FF VII & VIII pack on shelves which is what gives me a glimmer of hope. It was originally Asia only too as far as I mind.

Then I will cross my fingers for you and hope it does come over here  that's actually something I'm surprised isn't confirmed over here to be honest. We've never had the game officially release over here before, and now that it is, it's only going to be as a digital title? Seems like the exact kind of scenario S-E could easily take advantage of with a limited run physical release of the game at an extortionate rate 

[Hero-of-Time]

3 minutes ago, Julius said:

Yeah, it's exactly looking over at my shelf which made me say "well I wanna buy it, but..." - I hate being an adult and having to make sensible decisions 

For me it's Xenoblade Chronicles (Future Connected or 2) or, much more likely, another Dragon Quest.

I've been dabbling with Xenoblade Chronicles recently. I got a decent way through it in October but it became a right slog to play and I shelved it. For the past few weeks i've just been picking away at it in between other games. It's not a great game. My opinion of it hasn't changed since I played it 10 years ago on the Wii. The Last Story was a MUCH better JRPG.

[Julius]

29 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I've been dabbling with Xenoblade Chronicles recently. I got a decent way through it in October but it became a right slog to play and I shelved it. For the past few weeks i've just been picking away at it in between other games. It's not a great game. My opinion of it hasn't changed since I played it 10 years ago on the Wii. The Last Story was a MUCH better JRPG.

Yeah, when I played through it when it came out on Switch (oh good lord that was nearly two years ago now?! Wait, it's already been two years since VII Remake?!?! ) I enjoyed the game a fair bit, think it just depends a bit too much on the trappings of JRPG tropes to a pretty absurd degree and ends up a bit bonkers at the end. Absolutely killer OST though. 

I know Future Connected is much shorter and serves as an epilogue of sorts, but because it's so short a burst for a JRPG, it almost makes it less appealing to me for some reason? Probably my own fault for leaving it so long though 

And yeah I'll need to check out The Last Story at some point for sure, I think @Glen-i might have mentioned it back when I was looking for Wii and Wii U recommendations back when I got a Wii U. I swear JRPG's are a solid 50% of the games I want to get to, but most of them are just so damn long 

[Hero-of-Time]

1 minute ago, Julius said:

I swear JRPG's are a solid 50% of the games I want to get to, but most of them are just so damn long 

I hear ya. As an adult it's so hard to fit them in when you've got work and other responsibilities to get on with, not to mention other games. It's why I liked the DS/3DS/PSP/Vita. I could take them to work with me and crack on during my lunch breaks. Switch is far too bulky and expensive for me to want to do that.

[Hero-of-Time]

8 minutes ago, Julius said:

 Wait, it's already been two years since VII Remake?!?! )

Yup. Crazy isn't it. I actually started playing the PS5 version of the game earlier in the week as I wanted to make it my 500th platinum. Crazy how fast the loading times are in this version and the doors look great.   I ended up getting to chapter 3 and then just auto popping the platinum.  

The game is still too fresh in my mind for another playthrough. The production values still blow my mind, especially coming off from Stranger of Paradise. The OST is one of the best in any videogame. I still need to get around to playing the DLC. I wouldn't care, it was on sale just last week as well.

[Jonnas]

I'm not sure if I'll get it right away. On one hand, it's a game I'd be able to play through fairly quickly because I still remember its general beats. On the other, I got other RPGs to play.

[Hero-of-Time]

2 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

I'm not sure if I'll get it right away. On one hand, it's a game I'd be able to play through fairly quickly because I still remember its general beats. On the other, I got other RPGs to play.

Haha. I love it how we've all got other RPGs to play. What's on your backlog, Jonnas?

[Glen-i]

2 hours ago, Julius said:

And yeah I'll need to check out The Last Story at some point for sure, I think @Glen-i might have mentioned it back when I was looking for Wii and Wii U recommendations back when I got a Wii U. I swear JRPG's are a solid 50% of the games I want to get to, but most of them are just so damn long 

Xenoblade may be the best of the Rainfall trio, but Last Story is defo the most underrated. Great little game.

1 hour ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Haha. I love it how we've all got other RPGs to play. What's on your backlog, Glen-i?

Gonna just hijack that post...

Back at Christmas, I got quite a bit of eShop credit, and you'll remember that there was a bonkers sale on the eShop. So I've got a few on my backlog. (I even made a group for them, so I know they're there)

I've got NEO: The World Ends With You (which I'm currently playing), Grandia HD Collection, Shin Megami Tensei III HD, Nexomon, and that Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth double pack.

[darksnowman]

+1 for being Xenobladed. 

Got the Switch version after the 3 reveal thinking I could knock it and the other/s out before 3 later in the year but I'm not so sure about that anymore at all. I'm further than I got on the Wii so that's progress however... I'm not feeling the time played : rewards reaped ratio is right. 

I feel I've put in the hours and questage to be like this:

[insert applicable boss]

Yet my levels are just keeping up with bosses so when I rock in like in the image, the bosses are like "mwahahaha you pipsqueaks!" and dispatch with me without batting an eyelid.  Imagine if I was gunning it through the story and ignoring sidequests.  Average encounters are a doddle (resulting in the exp gain being reduced massively to prevent over-levelling...) but the bosses are brick walls to me. There's got to be something staring me in the face about the battle system that I'm missing. If only there were healing items I could dig in and fight and heal to the end. I'm not even joking. This is a Wii game. Granny should be able to cruise through it and enjoy the nice story about the bad machines attacking your home colony for crying out loud. I'll have to have another look at it as I think overall it's a great game... though it makes a good case for the answer being yes when the question is can you have too much of a good thing because the game + bonus content should have been done 20 hours ago, imo.

So I'm not only on a break from RPGs but also long games at the moment.  SMT V and all remain unopened for a while yet, and it's probably for the best that I'm leaning towards keeping my powder dry with Chrono Cross to see if the packaged edition is coming as I'm not really in the mood to engage with an RPG right now thanks to Xenoblade.  Need to get my head back in the grind for Live-A-Live (or sooner).

Edited April 2, 2022 by darksnowman
prefer the tennis imagery :D

[Jonnas]

2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Haha. I love it how we've all got other RPGs to play. What's on your backlog, Jonnas?

Bravely Default II is still there! As is Tales of Vesperia. And possibly further campaigns in Three Houses.

If we count 3DS, then FE Fates, Mario&Luigi, Radiant Historia, Dragon Quest VI... and a few Game Gear games.

Please don't ask me to include my PC backlog

Edited April 2, 2022 by Jonnas

[darksnowman]

Quote

Just look at its 45 playable characters, some of whom can only be recruited during your second playthrough: strutting J-pop idols and hags who mimic previously defeated monsters; moody boy painters and jesters who speak Monty Python French; a skeletal clown you'll slowly assemble bone by bone. [...] All have personal dramas to uncover that stretch between realities, though the size of the cast means that only a handful receive the depth of attention you'd associate with party members in the PS1 Final Fantasies.

Sounds like a right ragtag bunch.  

Quote

[...] the remaster's silver bullet is the inclusion of the Radical Dreamers visual novel, another quasi-sequel to Chrono Trigger featuring Serge and Kid, originally published for the Satellaview. Beginning with a mansion heist, it's an elaborate but snappy yarn, enjoyable both in itself and for how it contrasts or complements the events and structures of the RPGs: there's something resembling a battle system, for instance, but choices such as attack or defend are narrative branches. One elementary thing I relished about the writing was that, as confusing as it may sound to explore a labyrinth of traps and locked doors in text-based form, I never got lost: descriptions update to reflect the fact that you've already visited an area.

Recommended: A serviceable restoration of one of the best and strangest games in Squaresoft's back catalogue.
https://www.eurogamer.net/chrono-cross-the-radical-dreamers-edition-review-an-rpg-that-haunts-itself

Also mentions that Cross isn't the grindiest of RPGs and spends several paragraphs on battles. Worth a read for anyone getting warmed up to dive into this.

[Sheikah]

36 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

Sounds like a right ragtag bunch.  

Recommended: A serviceable restoration of one of the best and strangest games in Squaresoft's back catalogue.
https://www.eurogamer.net/chrono-cross-the-radical-dreamers-edition-review-an-rpg-that-haunts-itself

Also mentions that Cross isn't the grindiest of RPGs and spends several paragraphs on battles. Worth a read for anyone getting warmed up to dive into this.

As someone who played the heck out of this I can vouch that it's a great game. Also they're right about the grinding - as I recall, your party levels up only after defeating bosses.

[Hero-of-Time]

21 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

As someone who played the heck out of this I can vouch that it's a great game. Also they're right about the grinding - as I recall, your party levels up only after defeating bosses.

Wait, so you can't grind/farm exp to the point where you can just steamroll bosses? If that is the case....

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

As someone who played the heck out of this I can vouch that it's a great game. Also they're right about the grinding - as I recall, your party levels up only after defeating bosses.

Oh right, I forgot about that. I knew there were more reasons for me not liking it...

[Sheikah]

You guys sure love monotony, eh?

[Glen-i]

10 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

You guys sure love monotony, eh?

I always appreciate the option.

If I find something too difficult in an RPG, I prefer to have a get out clause if I get desperate. There's a reason Final Fantasy 8 and 13 blows.

OK, there's many, but that's a big one.

With how confusing Chrono Cross is, that's even more reason!

[Hero-of-Time]

15 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

You guys sure love monotony, eh?

I find it relaxing and satisfying. I dislike the strategic route to JRPG battles and prefer to be overpowered and just fight without thinking.  

[Sheikah]

I always appreciate the option.
If I find something too difficult in an RPG, I prefer to have a get out clause if I get desperate. There's a reason Final Fantasy 8 and 13 blows.
OK, there's many, but that's a big one.
With how confusing Chrono Cross is, that's even more reason!

I just think if you're going to spend several hours smacking weak enemies over the head to overlevel and trivialise the rest of the game, surely better to just have a difficulty slider to instantly achieve the same thing without wasting time doing that. Unless you enjoy grinding, of course.

I actually think Chrono Cross is very clever in this regard in that it's well designed so that there's always a good level of challenge for where you are in the game, and no need to spend time grinding. That, and there's no random battles. It's leagues ahead of its Final Fantasy PS1 counterparts in that regard!

Just to add though, you can clear sidequests for better equipment and abilities, so that's the way you can make the game easier. A bit like how you can make FFVIII easier by acquiring good magic and GFs to junction to stats. Both games take focus away from the traditional method of levelling and effectively make the "levelling" happen some other way. I'm totally for different takes on levelling, I've seen plenty of games that expect you to chip away at random enemies over and over. I'm looking at you, Dragon Quest!

[Jonnas]

29 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

I always appreciate the option.

Maybe you'll find the option alongside all the unchosen impossible futures in the Dead Sea. Or something. I think that's how Chrono Cross time works.

...

I will say, I can think of one boss against whom no amount of grinding would ever help.

[darksnowman]

I love crawling through a dungeon, cave, up a mountain or across the overworld, and the further you get, the more depleted your resources become and there comes a time when you have to decide whether you'll press on in the hopes of reaching the next inn, or to double back and rest up.

Onwards you go. It can't be far. You're down to your last HP restores, you've already used the last of your MP restores and not for offensive magic... you've been relying on those healing spells and little else. A party member falls in battle. Then another. And another. The revives are used up. Would it have been better to go back? Doesn't bear thinking about now. It's just you. The enemies whiff a round of attacks. You crit. Can't count on that getting you much further. Then... you emerge/ find a roaming merchant/ a warp point back to the last town and the relief is palpable. You were on the verge of losing all that exp and levelling but you've made it. Just. You revive, restore, retool, restock, upgrade and go again. Refreshed and ready, those levels you've gained and the new gear you're able to afford make it that little bit easier to get around and after a while you've command of the area, ploughing through battles that were apt to one-shot you before in a single turn now. The pwnee has become the pwner.

Then you move on and start the cycle again.

Love it.

Not saying I expect Chrono Cross to be like that or that it should be. I've always heard it's been divisive on both a story and systems level. Variety is the spice of life in RPGs too. 

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

Just to add though, you can clear sidequests for better equipment and abilities, so that's the way you can make the game easier. A bit like how you can make FFVIII easier by acquiring good magic and GFs to junction to stats. Both games take focus away from the traditional method of levelling and effectively make the "levelling" happen some other way. I'm totally for different takes on levelling, I've seen plenty of games that expect you to chip away at random enemies over and over. I'm looking at you, Dragon Quest!

The fundamental flaw with FFVIII is that the game actively punishes you for leveling up though. The combination of the stats you get from junctioning being a flat value instead of a cumulative one combined with enemies scaling with your level means that the most effective way of playing the game is to stay at Level 1 by getting a particular ability to stop all random encounters.

Pity I learned that after I finished it. Because the game never tells you that, and you need a guide to pull it off right.

It's a great example of an experimental mechanic needing more thought to it.

Anyway, Chrono Cross seems to work like FF XIII, you level up stats from fighting normal enemies, until the game arbitrarily decides "Nah, you're not bumping them up anymore until you beat this boss."

I think I just talked myself out of buying it when it goes on sale. I'll just play Radical Dreamers on @Dcubed's Switch.

[Sheikah]

The fundamental flaw with FFVIII is that the game actively punishes you for leveling up though. The combination of the stats you get from junctioning being a flat value instead of a cumulative one combined with enemies scaling with your level means that the most effective way of playing the game is to stay at Level 1 by getting a particular ability to stop all random encounters.
Pity I learned that after I finished it. Because the game never tells you that, and you need a guide to pull it off right.
It's a great example of an experimental mechanic needing more thought to it.
Anyway, Chrono Cross seems to work like FF XIII, you level up stats from fighting normal enemies, until the game arbitrarily decides "Nah, you're not bumping them up anymore until you beat this boss."
I think I just talked myself out of buying it when it goes on sale. I'll just play Radical Dreamers on [mention=883]Dcubed[/mention]'s Switch.

I am a bit tired of seeing this often repeated line about level scaling being such a "flaw" in FFVIII. It really doesn't hold up when you examine it closely.

It doesn't really matter that enemies level up in FFVIII in line with your own level, because it takes more effort to maintain the minimum level. It's not a 'fundamental flaw' because having knowledge of level scaling doesn't automatically lead to a broken game. In fact, given how tedious it is to go about maintaining minimum level (while doing things like carding enemies), level scaling is more or less just a thing that happens to players.

The impact of level scaling is blown way out of proportion. Given that you can junction powerful magic to strength and get the lionheart for Squall, you'll rinse enemies regardless of whether they have more HP due to your own level being higher. There are only a couple of bosses that cannot be utterly annihilated by a single lionheart, regardless of player level! Player level is a very minor aspect of your power in FFVIII, in the very same manner as in Chrono Cross.

[Dcubed]

Chrono Cross isn't exactly what I would consider to be a hard game; there's never really a need to grind.

There are some clever bosses and enemies that require a bit of strategy & thought to beat them, but I can't imagine that you'll ever really feel underlevelled.

[Dcubed]

Huh? So it does feature the original OST after all?

Were S-E just talking bollocks when they said that it had a newly updated soundtrack? I mean, that would actually be a very good thing in this case because Chrono Cross’ original OST is excellent!

Edited April 6, 2022 by Dcubed