VICE: Nintendo Losing Younger Gamers

[dazzybee]

Other consoles will be lucky to have any games as good as Splatoon, Mario Maker, Smash Kart and Pikmin 3 in their whole life time. Can't see it happening. Saying that, Pikmin 3 online would put it in my top 5 games of all time!!

 

I'm just really not convinced the lack of voice chat is a reason for Wii U failing. I think branding, marketing, high price, no 3rd parties are bigger issues. Though I guess no voice chat adds to the 'image' gamers have with nintendo.

 

Roll on NX so we can stop having these conversations... Depending on how it goes I guess

[Hero-of-Time]

I think one of the biggest problems that arises when being critical of Nintendo is how the match up against the competition. They tried this with the N64 and the GameCube and it didn't work for them. The Wii was a success because it did what the others didn't. In 2006/7 it was ingenious and caught the public's imagination. Unfortunately they couldn't maintain the success and the console became a huge disappointment in its later life, but as we've seen from the activity of the past few years (merging handheld and console dev studios), embracing online, connected and mobile technology, they are better placed to counteract this.

 

It's been discussed many times why this argument doesn't really hold water. They used cartridges instead of CDs with the N64 and with the GameCube they used those mini discs, looked like a fisher price toy, no dvd support and were extremely late to the party. They didn't really try to match up with the competition in either of these cases. Both times they done something stupid which caused them to lose substantial market share.

 

The Wii has shown just how fickle that expanded market is though. Even Iwata admitted that they shouldn't have abandoned the core.

 

“The Wii was able to reach a large number of new consumers who had never played games before by bringing hands-on experiences with its Wii Sports and Wii Fit. However, we could not adequately create the situation that such new consumers played games frequently or for long, consistent periods. As a result we could not sustain a good level of profit,” said Iwata.

 

“Moreover, regrettably, what we prioritized in order to reach out to the new audience was a bit too far from what we prioritized for those who play games as their hobby. Consequently, we presume some people felt that the Wii was not a game system for them or they were not willing to play with the Wii even though some compelling games had been released.”

 

The Wii, for all the success it had and money it made, was a very damaging product when it comes Nintendo's image and it's something they have struggled to shake this generation. Luckily it looks like the NX will get rid of all the ties to the Wii branding.

 

Other consoles will be lucky to have any games as good as Splatoon, Mario Maker, Smash Kart and Pikmin 3 in their whole life time. Can't see it happening. Saying that, Pikmin 3 online would put it in my top 5 games of all time!!

 

I'm just really not convinced the lack of voice chat is a reason for Wii U failing. I think branding, marketing, high price, no 3rd parties are bigger issues. Though I guess no voice chat adds to the 'image' gamers have with nintendo.

 

Roll on NX so we can stop having these conversations... Depending on how it goes I guess

 

That's purely subjective, though. Some would rather play something like Bloodborne over Mario Maker, Halo over Splatoon or The Witcher over Xenoblade.

 

Sure, the voice chat issue wasn't what killed the Wii U but it certainly didn't help the situation.

 

I predict we will still be having these conversations when the NX does get revealed/arrive. :p

[Goron_3]

Allow me to clarify a few points. With regard to what @Sheikah said about Minecraft, I didn't say the sales were better on consoles, I said it was more popular on PC. It's the system of choice. Think about how many people are playing pirate copies, or are playing with mods. The developers even advocated piracy of the game way back in 2012.

 

I can't see Nintendo not including party chat for the next console, it's an industry standard now and they'd be stupid not to include it. But this is linked to friends and their improvements on the Wii U in this regard, and the upcoming Nintendo Network indicate they are taking online more seriously than back in 2006. It was a mistake not to include it, but nevertheless I side with Nintendo that chatting online and playing with friends will never truly replace the couch experience. Something which kids still have the time and freedom to enjoy, and us older gamers don't. For us, there are ways around it, like Skype as you pointed out.

 

Where younger gamers are concerned, I'm simply advocating that Nintendo shouldn't pander to them, but inspire them. We can see with Mario Maker, Splatoon and Yokai Watch that Nintendo are moving forward in this area, not like in the GameCube era, for example, where they churned out sequels. It's not about giving them what they think they want, but what they haven't seen yet, something new. For us Nintendo fans both this and nostalgia will be the draw. Who knows what will happen when the kids who grew on the DS and Wii get a disposable income, will we see another spike in nostalgic teens / young adults as we saw after the NES and SNES era? There's no reason to suggest it couldn't happen. Between them they sold 250 million units, on a par, if not higher than the sales in the 80s and 90s.

 

I think one of the biggest problems that arises when being critical of Nintendo is how the match up against the competition. They tried this with the N64 and the GameCube and it didn't work for them. The Wii was a success because it did what the others didn't. In 2006/7 it was ingenious and caught the public's imagination. Unfortunately they couldn't maintain the success and the console became a huge disappointment in its later life, but as we've seen from the activity of the past few years (merging handheld and console dev studios), embracing online, connected and mobile technology, they are better placed to counteract this.

 

Many of the points you raise are entirely valid, and I wholeheartedly agree with many gripes of older Nintendo gamers, but what we want is not necessarily what's best for Nintendo. If they want to chase kids and make lifelong Nintendo gamers then they have to be original and take some risks, and just like the Wii, that has the potential to anger older fans. Simply doing what the competition is doing, in an overcrowded marketplace none the less, just won't cut it anymore, particularly when you factor in the marketing budgets of Sony and Microsoft.

 

The N64 did well in the West (it outsold the GC LTD in America alone) but it was held back by design choices. They competed in power for Gamecube but NOT software - that was the problem. The biggest gaming market BY FAR is the 16-35 demographic and they abandoned what made the N64 so successful which was games aimed at the West. This is what made the Xbox so successful.

 

The Wii was successful but that market is gone. It's worrying that some Nintendo fans want Nintendo to be in a situation where they are only as strong as their next gimmick. That is not how you run a business.

[Nicktendo]

It's been discussed many times why this argument doesn't really hold water. They used cartridges instead of CDs with the N64 and with the GameCube they used those mini discs, looked like a fisher price toy, no dvd support and were extremely late to the party. They didn't really try to match up with the competition in either of these cases. Both times they done something stupid which caused them to lose substantial market share.

 

I was getting at the fact they went for power, industry standard graphics and control, as well as maintaining some level of decent 3rd party support. The problem was there was no USP, other than the fact that the GC was a fisher-price looking "games only device" in order to sell at this cheaper price and appeal to a wider market as "the cheap option". The lack of DVD was meant to be a plus, but they hadn't banked on it's success. Functionally, the consoles were on a par with the competition. Of course, the cartridges and mini-discs made actually competing 100 times more difficult. Couple this with the software, which while absolutly stellar, was aimed solely at Nintendo fans, and not a wider audience.

 

The Wii has shown just how fickle that expanded market is though. Even Iwata admitted that they shouldn't have abandoned the core. The Wii, for all the success it had and money it made, was a very damaging product when it comes Nintendo's image and it's something they have struggled to shake this generation. Luckily it looks like the NX will get rid of all the ties to the Wii branding.

 

I agree 100% that it's time to get rid of the Wii branding, and Nintendo's pitifully incoherent message with branding / marketing pretty much killed the Wii U before it even launched. The Wii damaged Nintendo's image in our minds, sure, but I still think time will tell if younger gamers from this gen will come back in 5-10 years.

[Kav]

I was under the impression that none of our friends own Wii Us and only people we chat online to on a Nintendo forum do.. :wink: What about all those people who go to restaurants or for a beer with friends so they can sit in silence and check facebook and write to OTHER friends. I thought that was what's hip these days.

 

But... but... some of you guys are my friends

 

I do have a few friends (3) off here that own WiiUs but don't play them online simply because of the voice chat issue.

 

The voice chat situation is killing Nintendo to some of their current fans. That's the problem I have @dazzybee.

 

The situation that is killing Nintendo to the general public is the lack of 3rd Parties, both their software and the relationship Nintendo have with them... both being almost non-existent!

Edited February 3, 2016 by Kav
Automerged Doublepost

[Kaepora_Gaebora]

 

I honestly fail to see how talking to friends would ruin something like Splatoon. If anything it would enhance the experience. A prime example was when a few of us on here decided to use Skype while playing and it was such a laugh. It's exactly the same as having your mates over while playing on a local multiplayer.

 

I completely agree with everything you've said, apart from that last bit...

 

Personally I couldn't care a great deal for voice chat as my hours are so unsociable that if I'm gaming it's usually in the middle of the day when none of my friends are on. However it's still a great component to have, with no reason not to!

 

However if you think that's just as good as local multiplayer you're havin' a laugh, son!

 

Seriously though, I had some utterly brilliant MH3U sessions with @kav82 and @Blade back in the day, we had a right laugh playing together! (Didn't we?)

 

But nothing will beat playing it locally and coming up against a really tough monster. 2 minutes to go. No faints left...hands barely able to hold the 3DS due to sweat...you get the kill and all hell breaks lose, 30 year old men hugging each other, celebrating like they've scored the winner in the FA Cup final, pandemonium! (in fact you could use that analogy for FIFA or the like too)

 

Slightly off topic perhaps, and I appreciate not everyone lives close enough to their friends to do that on regular occasions (I certainly didn't for a long time) however for me, nothing beats getting together and playing together in the same room

[Kav]

...Seriously though, I had some utterly brilliant MH3U sessions with @kav82 and @Blade back in the day, we had a right laugh playing together! (Didn't we?)...

 

They are amongst my fondest multiplayer memories! Oh man I miss those days!!!

 

I agree that nothing beats local but it's that local is far too few and far inbetween for a lot of people. Online and voice chat helps so much!

 

I'd be happy with just Party Chat at an OS level... very happy!

[Sheikah]

Allow me to clarify a few points. With regard to what @Sheikah said about Minecraft, I didn't say the sales were better on consoles, I said it was more popular on PC. It's the system of choice. Think about how many people are playing pirate copies, or are playing with mods. The developers even advocated piracy of the game way back in 2012.

 

But it isn't more popular on PC than consoles collectively. The PC has the definitive version, but Minecraft is more popular on consoles (which is reflected by the fact more people have bought it). Not sure where you are going with the point about piracy. Piracy is also rife on the 360, the console with the most Minecraft console sales. But even then, Minecraft is a dirt cheap game and the nature of how it is updated means most people that have modded it have almost certainly bought a legit copy too.

 

I don't think this matters so much anyway, other than to point out that your argument that "Nintendo needn't do this" due to it being relatively unpopular on consoles was way off the mark. I also don't think you understand how ridiculously easy it is to Skype on PC for PC players, too. Kids are most definitely doing this.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Sheikah

[Hero-of-Time]

I completely agree with everything you've said, apart from that last bit...

 

However if you think that's just as good as local multiplayer you're havin' a laugh, son!

 

I meant in the sense that your having a laugh with your mates, not that it's better than local multiplayer.

 

Yes, local multiplayer is still king but as life moves on and people drift apart online play becomes a godsend. It also has the advantage of me being able to play games with my friends while I slob around the house in my boxers. There's a nice image for everyone.

[Nicktendo]

But it isn't more popular on PC than consoles collectively. The PC has the definitive version, but Minecraft is more popular on consoles (which is reflected by the fact more people have bought it). Not sure where you are going with the point about piracy. Piracy is also rife on the 360, the console with the most Minecraft console sales. But even then, Minecraft is a dirt cheap game and the nature of how it is updated means most people that have modded it have almost certainly bought a legit copy too.

 

I don't think this matters so much anyway, other than to point out that your argument that "Nintendo needn't do this" due to it being relatively unpopular on consoles was way off the mark. I also don't think you understand how ridiculously easy it is to Skype on PC for PC players, too. Kids are most definitely doing this.

 

 

My point about piracy was that outside of the UK and the West in general the game is played only on PC, pirated and immensely popular. There are countless YouTube streams and videos of non-English gamers playing the game and they all communicate via Skype. Hell I do exactly that with my students who are all playing pirated copies. Actual PC sales represent only a small fraction of the overall community and they play the game absolutely fine without built in voice chat. I'm not debating that little Johnny from from Windsor sits at home and plays online with his friends on a 360, but globally, I believe this is still the exception rather than the rule. But all this is beside the point. I WANT party voice chat on the NX, but I don't believe it's going to be the system seller some are making it out to be.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Nicktendo

[Goron_3]

My point about piracy was that outside of the UK and the West in general the game is played only on PC, pirated and immensely popular. There are countless YouTube streams and videos of non-English gamers playing the game and they all communicate via Skype. Hell I do exactly that with my students who are all playing pirated copies. Actual PC sales represent only a small fraction of the overall community and they play the game absolutely fine without built in voice chat. I'm not debating that little Johnny from from Windsor sits at home and plays online with his friends on a 360, but globally, I believe this is still the exception rather than the rule. But all this is beside the point. I WANT party voice chat on the NX, but I don't believe it's going to be the system seller some are making it out to be.

 

Interesting point. I actually cared very little for the Wii U's poor online because I'm not a huge online gamer, however I thoroughly enjoyed Splatoon but had to stop playing it because it was too much hassle to play it socially. I wouldn't purchase a sequel unless they fix this for the NX.

 

Funnily enough I've started playing Smash again (Melee) with Zell and it really made me realise how important it is to laugh and talk when you play games together.

[Blade]

Other consoles will be lucky to have any games as good as Splatoon, Mario Maker, Smash Kart and Pikmin 3 in their whole life time. Can't see it happening. Saying that, Pikmin 3 online would put it in my top 5 games of all time!!

 

That is completely subjective. I do like and loved the games mentioned above but the vast majority if them have things missing that although fine the last generation is unacceptable today. I'm talking about voice chat or the bizarre omission of online in general.

 

Nintendo would be lucky to have games as good as Bloodborne, Tomb Raider, Destiny, Witcher 3, FF etc.

 

Surely the software line up for the NX will be better than the Wii U. What has been released for the Wii U has been very good but there just hasn't been a lot of it.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Blade

[Sheikah]

My point about piracy was that outside of the UK and the West in general the game is played only on PC, pirated and immensely popular. There are countless YouTube streams and videos of non-English gamers playing the game and they all communicate via Skype. Hell I do exactly that with my students who are all playing pirated copies. Actual PC sales represent only a small fraction of the overall community and they play the game absolutely fine without built in voice chat. I'm not debating that little Johnny from from Windsor sits at home and plays online with his friends on a 360, but globally, I believe this is still the exception rather than the rule. But all this is beside the point. I WANT party voice chat on the NX, but I don't believe it's going to be the system seller some are making it out to be.

 

Well we will have no idea how many pirate it and how many don't. Just as we won't for the 360 version. The only thing I can tell you is that, as the figures show, Minecraft console is a massive deal and that kids/teens are the biggest audience. In addition to that, you don't have any information pertaining to whether 10 year olds generally know how to Skype or not; thus, the kids playing PC may well be skyping too.

 

Your argument about what Nintendo should do was very much based on your own personal feeling/limited anecdotes and generally conflicts with what available data we really have.

[Nicktendo]

Well we will have no idea how many pirate it and how many don't. Just as we won't for the 360 version.

 

None of us do, I'm only offering you an alternative view.

 

The only thing I can tell you is that, as the figures show.

 

Except the figuers don't always tell the full story, particularly with Minecraft.

 

Minecraft console is a massive deal and that kids/teens are the biggest audience.

 

I don't dispute that.

 

In addition to that, you don't have any information pertaining to whether 10 year olds generally know how to Skype or not; thus, the kids playing PC may well be skyping too.

 

That was my argument. PC kids are probably using Skype. This is their best option if they want to voice chat in-game. Your younger brother was doing it at 10, so are my students. Anecdotal evidence. I never claimed anything other than this. The people streaming online multiplayer communicate using skype, the videos demonstrate this.

 

Your argument about what Nintendo should do was very much based on your own personal feeling/limited anecdotes and generally conflicts with what available data we really have.

 

I am offering opinion about Nintendo should do in the future, based on my feelings as a Nintendo gamer... Just like everyone else in this forum. How is this relevant? We can all discuss numbers and figuers until we're blue in the face, but really none of us know what they will do, and what will be succesful. It's all conjecture.

[Sheikah]

@Nicktendo this seems to be completely at odds with the message you originally put across:

 

Secondly, we have the thorny issue of "protecting kids". It's true that Nintendo is behind the competition in terms of online capabilities. Though voice chat, it seems, is the be all end all of any online experience according to some people. Anything without it is pretty much useless. But where is voice chat in Minecraft? If I'm a ten year old boy who doesn't understand modding, how can I chat with my friend on Minecraft? I can't. Granted I can on Playstation or Xbox, but the original PC version, which is by far the most popular, doesn't offer this option, so why is it such a travesty that the Wii U doesn't offer it when this one game which is "so hip with the kids" doesn't either?

 

If you read what you originally said it seems pretty clear that you are dismissing voice chat (particularly the bolded bits) and arguing that people on PC weren't really doing it because it wasn't "built in", as a means to say it wasn't really all that important. Yet now you are agreeing with me that actually, the PC kids are probably all doing it on Skype; ergo it is very much valued in the Minecraft community. Just as, I'm arguing, it is on the extremely popular console versions too.

 

The key difference is that Minecraft PC doesn't need voice chat as people can Skype from the same system. People on Wii U would need voice chat as there is no Skype. That's why it was so important Nintendo had it, just as the other consoles did. Without it, you offer just a lite experience relative to your competitors.

 

I think the piracy issue has sidetracked the original point I was trying to make (and ultimately is just completely theoretical guessing). My personal opinion is that most people on modded Minecraft servers have probably bought the game, owing to the fact most people probably jump in at Vanilla minecraft before going down the modded route (plus, it's super cheap).

Edited February 3, 2016 by Sheikah

[Nicktendo]

@Nicktendo this seems to be completely at odds with the message you originally put across:

 

 

 

If you read what you originally said it seems pretty clear that you are dismissing voice chat (particularly the bolded bits) and arguing that people on PC weren't really doing it because it wasn't "built in", as a means to say it wasn't really all that important. Yet now you are agreeing with me that actually, the PC kids are probably all doing it on Skype; ergo it is very much valued in the Minecraft community. Just as, I'm arguing, it is on the extremely popular console versions too.

 

The key difference is that Minecraft PC doesn't need voice chat as people can Skype from the same system. People on Wii U would need voice chat as there is no Skype. That's why it was so important Nintendo had it, just as the other consoles did. Without it, you offer just a lite experience relative to your competitors.

 

I think the piracy issue has sidetracked the original point I was trying to make (and ultimately is just completely theoretical guessing). My personal opinion is that most people on modded Minecraft servers have probably bought the game, owing to the fact most people probably jump in at Vanilla minecraft before going down the modded route (plus, it's super cheap).

 

 

And what exactly is stopping Wii U owners using Skype then? Every phone, tablet and laptop uses it. Everyone owns a pair of headphones. Whether it's through the same system or not is irrelevant.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Nicktendo

[Sheikah]

And what exactly is stopping Wii U owners using Skype then? Every phone, tablet and laptop uses it. Everyone owns a pair of headphones. Whether it's through the same system or not is irrelevant.

 

The inconvenience. Come on, if Skype was good enough for people on the Wii U then nobody would be demanding voice chat, would they? People have to arrange it, have a second device, etc. It's inconvenient enough that most people probably won't do it.

[Nicktendo]

The inconvenience. Come on, if Skype was good enough for people on the Wii U then nobody would be demanding voice chat, would they? People have to arrange it, have a second device, etc. It's inconvenient enough that most people probably won't do it.

 

 

No I agree completely, it's inconvenient. But the possibility to use it is there. As I said before, voice chat, particularly party chat would be great for Nintendo. I just don't think it's the main thing that's missing. I understand that 99% of the forum users want it and it's a major bug bear for most of us, however NX's success won't be defined by it's inclusion. It seems to me they have much bigger things to worry about. Doesn't Minecraft Wii U have in game chat anyway?

[dazzybee]

That's purely subjective, though. Some would rather play something like Bloodborne over Mario Maker, Halo over Splatoon or The Witcher over Xenoblade.

 

Sure, the voice chat issue wasn't what killed the Wii U but it certainly didn't help the situation.

 

I predict we will still be having these conversations when the NX does get revealed/arrive. :p

 

@Blade

 

Ah yes, sorry, that was sort of my point; the big issues people have with the wii u are subjective; I would still prefer the Wii U in it's service-gimped state then the ps4 in all its online glory.

 

But it's all about personal taste. The success of some of nintendo games, irrespective of their awful console sales shows they do the important thing right. But for a lot of people, combining those two (game quality and online services) would be a dream ticket which is frustrating for them as it's not an unreasonable ask.

 

But I'm more positive than you My Nintendo sounds exactly what we all want from nintendo. Party Chat is the only thing missing really It'll come! Nintendo will learn.

 

 

The voice chat situation is killing Nintendo to some of their current fans. That's the problem I have @dazzybee.

 

The situation that is killing Nintendo to the general public is the lack of 3rd Parties, both their software and the relationship Nintendo have with them... both being almost non-existent!

 

I guess that's the thing, there's almost 4 camps. 1. People who love nintendo games and aren't bothered some of the services are bad 2. People who love nintendo games but the awful services are ruining the experience 3. People who like nintendo games, but need 3rd parties too 4. People who hate nintendo and everything they stand for

 

1. Me 2. You 3. the 'general gamer' 4. Sheikah

Edited February 3, 2016 by dazzybee
Automerged Doublepost

[Sheikah]

@Blade

 

Ah yes, sorry, that was sort of my point; the big issues people have with the wii u are subjective; I would still prefer the Wii U in it's service-gimped state then the ps4 in all its online glory.

 

But it's all about personal taste. The success of some of nintendo games, irrespective of their awful console sales shows they do the important thing right. But for a lot of people, combining those two (game quality and online services) would be a dream ticket which is frustrating for them as it's not an unreasonable ask.

 

But I'm more positive than you My Nintendo sounds exactly what we all want from nintendo. Party Chat is the only thing missing really It'll come! Nintendo will learn.

 

 

 

I guess that's the thing, there's almost 4 camps. 1. People who love nintendo games and aren't bothered some of the services are bad 2. People who love nintendo games but the awful services are ruining the experience 3. People who like nintendo games, but need 3rd parties too 4. People who hate nintendo and everything they stand for

 

1. Me 2. You 3. the 'general gamer' 4. Sheikah

You're forgetting the 5th group for judgemental fellows like yourself there. I mean, really, does it make you feel good to troll people so blatantly?

 

Yay, labeling.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Sheikah

[dazzybee]

You're forgetting the 5th group for judgemental fellows like yourself there. I mean, really, does it make you feel good to troll people so blatantly?

 

Yay, labeling.

 

Oh for fuck sake get a grip. If you can't see that as an obvious joke there's really no helping you.

[Sheikah]

Oh for fuck sake get a grip. If you can't see that as an obvious joke there's really no helping you.

 

One which quite clearly wasn't very funny.

 

To be honest Dazzy, you call it a joke but it's essentially the same thing you always say about me on this forum, again and again. I absolutely cannot stand when people behave like jerks and then try to brush it off as "just a joke". Conversely, I have nothing but respect for people who put their hands up and admit to poor judgement.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Sheikah

[Zechs Merquise]

One which quite clearly wasn't very funny.

 

To be honest Dazzy, you call it a joke but it's essentially the same thing you always say about me on this forum, again and again. I absolutely cannot stand when people behave like jerks and then try to brush it off as "just a joke". Conversely, I have nothing but respect for people who put their hands up and admit to poor judgement.

 

Pot calling the kettle.

 

The laughable thing is certain people on this forum are Tumblr-tier 'special snowflakes' who can't deal with anything and literally seem to break down over people saying the slightest thing.

 

I often wonder whether these people ever leave their homes and have real world interactions.

 

The fuss being made over a simple comment, you'd think someone had just touched up someone's daughter!

[Hero-of-Time]

 

Don't do it, Sheikah.

[Goron_3]

One which quite clearly wasn't very funny.

 

To be honest Dazzy, you call it a joke but it's essentially the same thing you always say about me on this forum, again and again. I absolutely cannot stand when people behave like jerks and then try to brush it off as "just a joke". Conversely, I have nothing but respect for people who put their hands up and admit to poor judgement.

 

But it's lad banter you pr*ck.

 

(Am I doing this right?)