Nintendo Switch - Happy Switchmas Everyone!

[Ronnie]

Nintendo's games are so concentrated in one area (and lacking diversity)

 

Oh dear. Even when proved wrong you still try and push your agenda.

 

You're using sales to try prove your point

 

I'm using sales to prove that their titles appeal to western gamers. If they didn't, they wouldn't sell in the west. Simple really.

[Rummy]

I disagree.

 

Splatoon, Xenoblade, Starfox, Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin 3, Metroid Federation Force, Zelda and Mario 3D World are wildly different games, to name just a few. A multiplayer online shooter, an RPG, an arcade style space shooter, a cartoon horror game, a strategy game, a first person team based shooter, an adventure game and a 3D platformer.

 

3rd parties support Nintendo consoles with platformers and puzzle games because they sell well on Nintendo machines and are cheapter to make than a gritty FPS or openworld game.

 

Overwatch, The Witcher, Geometry Wars 3, Until Dawn, Tropico 5, CoD, Dishonored, Knack are wildly different games, to name just a few.

 

The problem with the argument is many fold - a.) who defines these genres? b.) what if two games that fall into a 'genre' wildly differ do you then redefine it(see multiplayer online shooter and first person team based shooter in above quoted post; the latter would technically fall into the former) c.) Just being able to name different genres and variety on one system does not automatically mean it has more or equal variety compared to another system - this comes to Kav's point about having 5 games available vs having 100 games available.

 

Again, variety and diversity comes both within AND across genres - however in Nintendo's case due to them primarily supporting their system I'd say diversity within is less(let's again take MK7+MK8, both 'racers' by genre, but very little variety between).

 

As for taking some lesser selling titles and saying how they've been outsold by Wii U titles - surely it could equally be taken to take bigger selling titles on the competition to say they've outsold the Wii U titles to make the same point but in favour of the competition?

[Sheikah]

Oh dear. Even when proved wrong you still try and push your agenda.

 

 

 

I'm using sales to prove that their titles appeal to western gamers. If they didn't, they wouldn't sell in the west. Simple really.

 

You're using figures to try prove one thing, but those figures were your undoing for your comments on diversity.

 

I'll break it down for you as you clearly didn't understand the point being made - you're saying that the Wii U has a bunch of games that have sold 4-5 million, maybe even 7 million, and how this compares to the competition. And we're telling you that these games sell to the same audience, hence lack of diversity of games, which is reflect by the lack of system sales.

 

The fact that the Wii U struggles so much is enough to show the clear lack of games and lack of diversity in their lineup. And a huge lack of some genres of games. If they pulled in multiple different audiences then there'd a lot more units shifted.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Sheikah

[Ronnie]

Overwatch, The Witcher, Geometry Wars 3, Until Dawn, Tropico 5, CoD, Dishonored, Knack are wildly different games, to name just a few.

 

They're not made by the same developer. This entire conversation has been about Nintendo's first and second party software line-up and how combining their 3DS and Wii U output bodes well for NX. My point has always been that as a developer, Nintendo have a clear style, but they use it in a huge variety of genres.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Ronnie

[Rummy]

They're not made by the same developer. This entire conversation has been about Nintendo's first and second party software line-up and how combining their 3DS and Wii U output bodes well for Wii U. My point has always been that as a developer, Nintendo have a clear style, but they use it in a huge variety of genres.

 

The point being made against that is that they will lack diversity due to it. Simply 'genre'-ing it will not suddenly make it diverse. Look at the actual diversity of titles - SM3DL, SM3DW, MK7, MK8; both combine from their handheld and console offerings(relevant due to NX's rumoured hybrid nature) to give 4 games across two genres but within themselves the diversity and variety is rather lacking compared to that available on a competing system(which does not, to me, 'bode well').

 

For comparison to the above let's use Knack, Ratchet+Clank, Project CARS, Drive Club. Both 4 games two genres - much more variety and diversity in this latter example than the former, though. That's even still ignoring the availability of other racers let's say such as F1, Dirt Rally, NFS, etc to name just a few.

 

 

Again: Genres are broad and vague. Diversity both within and not just between genres matters.

[Ronnie]

For comparison to the above let's use Knack, Ratchet+Clank, Project CARS, Drive Club. Both 4 games two genres

 

Why don't you provide a comparison that's actually fair... if you're using SM3DL, SM3DW, MK7 and MK8 then the equivalent would be COD:AW and COD:IW and FIFA 16 and FIFA 17, games in the same series.

 

much more variety and diversity in this latter example than the former, though. That's even still ignoring the availability of other racers let's say such as F1, Dirt Rally, NFS, etc to name just a few.

 

Again, those are all from a multitude of developers. If we had been talking about the entire industry then I could have included Sonic Racing Transformed, Fast Racing Neo etc.

 

For a single developer, I think the broad categories of games that Nintendo put out is admirable and merging their software output to cater for a single system is exciting. That's all.

[Serebii]

Bloody hell...

 

Can we get some damn NX info already!?

Beginning to think the reveal is delayed due to the Neo reveal, so they don't have to fight for airwaves

[Hero-of-Time]

Beginning to think the reveal is delayed due to the Neo reveal, so they don't have to fight for airwaves

 

But Nintendo don't consider Sony or Microsoft as competition. :p

 

I'm actually surprised Sony are showing their goods in September, seeing as Apple have a conference around the same time.

[Serebii]

But Nintendo don't consider Sony or Microsoft as competition. :p

 

I'm actually surprised Sony are showing their goods in September, seeing as Apple have a conference around the same time.

For the selling, no, but for tech sites, mainstream media awareness etc. they do

[Goron_3]

Beginning to think the reveal is delayed due to the Neo reveal, so they don't have to fight for airwaves

 

Yeah I agree with this. Isn't there an Apple conference around then too? Mid-late September makes sense.

[Ashley]

Mario Kart 8 sold more than Bloodborne, Uncharted 4 and Driveclub COMBINED. Which do you think is more appealing to western audiences?

 

Mario 3D World sold double what Uncharted 4 did, the PS4s flagship title. Software appeal is far from Nintendo's problem.

 

Oh come on.

 

Yes Wii U titles have done well within their audience but this is at best misleading or at worse incorrect.

 

Splatoon has indeed sold 4.2 million and Mario Kart 8 has sold 7.7 (as of June 2016). But better than the others combined? You need to consider how long these games have been out for and where in time the sales figures were coming from. Where are you getting yours from? A quick look at Wiki and the sales figures aren't LTD (although happy to re-adjust my figures if someone finds LTD) whereas Nintendo's are only 2 months old so it's practically LTD.

 

Bloodborne - 2 million (Sept 2015) - Release March 2015

Uncharted 4 - 2.7 million (within one week) - Released May 2016

Driveclub - 2 million (July 2015) - Released October 2014

 

Splatoon - 4.2 (June 2016) - Released May 2015

Mario Kart 8 - 7.7 (June 2016) - Released May 2014

 

The only ones you could really compare is MK8/Driveclub and Splatoon/Bloodborne as they were released near each other, however Driverclub's sales figures are 10 months behind the MK sales figures and Bloodborne's is 9 months. Now I'm not saying they will have matched them (Splatoon/MK8) at by now, but the figures of the PS4 games will be higher than quoted above.

 

Those three games would have had to have sold less than 1 million combined in the last year (or MK8 sold a substantial amount in the last 2 months) for your statement to be correct. Do you really believe that to be the case?

 

 

(I realised when posting this you made several posts offering similar comparisons and this address a few of them simply because I'm at work)

[RedShell]

Beginning to think the reveal is delayed due to the Neo reveal, so they don't have to fight for airwaves

Well, someone wake me up when it finally gets revealed.

 

:zzz:

[Rummy]

Why don't you provide a comparison that's actually fair... if you're using SM3DL, SM3DW, MK7 and MK8 then the equivalent would be COD:AW and COD:IW and FIFA 16 and FIFA 17, games in the same series.

 

Again, those are all from a multitude of developers. If we had been talking about the entire industry then I could have included Sonic Racing Transformed, Fast Racing Neo etc.

 

For a single developer, I think the broad categories of games that Nintendo put out is admirable and merging their software output to cater for a single system is exciting. That's all.

 

You asking me to be fair is kind of amusing :p. I was using like for like genres, there, as you seem to like your genres. Hence I chose those games. COD and FIFA are neither racers nor platformers.

 

Nobody is truly disputing your point that Nintendo make a lot of things for their system. I'd even expand to say they've been forced to do so in addition due to their poor choices in the past. The issue here is that it isn't generally good enough. Not diverse enough, not varied enough, especially compared to competing systems.

 

For example - why don't you offer me the variety of racers available on the system for the variety and diversity that I've been trying to talk about for days? None of this 1st/2nd/3rd party distinctions simply to suit a point that wasn't being made - it shouldn't matter on a system level; which this thread is here to discuss - the NX as a hardware system.

 

Let's take the racers alone - what are Nintendo systems offering against a wealth including Project Cars, Drive Club, F1, Dirt Rally, NFS, Trials, The Crew, MXGP, WRC, Table Top Racing, Carmageddon etc? That's....11 within that racing genre and still 'just to name a few'(sticking with the 'racing' genre). Can you give me 11 racers on the WiiU/3DS combined? So far we have MK7, MK8, Sonic Racing Transformed, Fast Racing Neo which makes...4. Even ignoring the general lack of variety between MK7 and MK8. The 11 I've named I believe are all available on a single competing system to the WiiU/NX etc. That's a single genre - I imagine the pattern would be further repeated and demonstrated within others.

 

How is that 4 vs 11 going to attract people and further development to the NX? How is it going to attract consumers? How is that going to make the console a success? This is what it comes back to(and the thread topic) - with a lack of diversity compared to the competition how can we truly expect the console to be that great a success? We've clearly seen the impact of this on the Wii U, and the success of it on the competition.

[Ronnie]

Oh come on.

 

Yes Wii U titles have done well within their audience but this is at best misleading or at worse incorrect.

 

Splatoon has indeed sold 4.2 million and Mario Kart 8 has sold 7.7 (as of June 2016). But better than the others combined? You need to consider how long these games have been out for and where in time the sales figures were coming from. Where are you getting yours from? A quick look at Wiki and the sales figures aren't LTD (although happy to re-adjust my figures if someone finds LTD) whereas Nintendo's are only 2 months old so it's practically LTD.

 

Bloodborne - 2 million (Sept 2015) - Release March 2015

Uncharted 4 - 2.7 million (within one week) - Released May 2016

Driveclub - 2 million (July 2015) - Released October 2014

 

Splatoon - 4.2 (June 2016) - Released May 2015

Mario Kart 8 - 7.7 (June 2016) - Released May 2014

 

The only ones you could really compare is MK8/Driveclub and Splatoon/Bloodborne as they were released near each other, however Driverclub's sales figures are 10 months behind the MK sales figures and Bloodborne's is 9 months. Now I'm not saying they will have matched them (Splatoon/MK8) at by now, but the figures of the PS4 games will be higher than quoted above.

 

Those three games would have had to have sold less than 1 million combined in the last year (or MK8 sold a substantial amount in the last 2 months) for your statement to be correct. Do you really believe that to be the case?

 

 

(I realised when posting this you made several posts offering similar comparisons and this address a few of them simply because I'm at work)

 

I really didn't put those statistics up with the intention of having them picked apart. Of course they're just vague numbers and time scale comes into it. I only did it to disprove the theory that "Western gamers don't care about Nintendo games". The reality is they sell extremely well, far better than most big AAA games that aren't called COD, GTA and FIFA. I should have realised that daring to suggest Nintendo sells a lot of games would have caused such uproar on here. Silly me for being positive.

[Goron_3]

I really didn't put those statistics up with the intention of having them picked apart. Of course they're just vague numbers and time scale comes into it. I only did it to disprove the theory that "Western gamers don't care about Nintendo games". The reality is they sell extremely well, far better than most big AAA games that aren't called COD, GTA and FIFA. I should have realised that daring to suggest Nintendo sells a lot of games would have caused such uproar on here. Silly me for being positive.

 

You haven't disproved anything. You still haven't provided any evidence to suggest that the games that you listed appeal to the typical western 18-35 demographic that Sony and Microsoft target. You are quite possibly the only person in the world who seems to think that Nintendo's software is competing with Sony and Microsoft's demographic. Nintendo themselves have said multiple times that they aren't competing for that market; I have no idea why you seem to think the opposite.

 

Nintendo software is selling to Nintendo fans. If the wider western audience was interested in it, they'd have sold more than 12M consoles in the past 4 years. The painful truth is that the audience who are purchasing games like The Witcher, Bloodborne, COD, Uncharter etc etc are not interested in Nintendo's output (and quite possible, vice versa). If they were they might actually bother to spend money on Nintendo consoles. The Wii U is the proof that Nintendo's core demographic has shrunk considerably.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Goron_3

[Ronnie]

. You are quite possibly the only person in the world who seems to think that Nintendo's software is competing with Sony and Microsoft's demographic.

 

Not once did I say that. You said that Nintendo software doesn't appeal to Western gamers. That isn't true. Why are you separating Nintendo fans with western gamers? They're part of the same group.

[Goron_3]

Not once did I say that. You said that Nintendo software doesn't appeal to Western gamers. That isn't true. Why are you separating Nintendo fans with western gamers? They're part of the same group.

 

I am obviously talking about different demographics. I am separating them because they are different demographics.

 

In the gaming industry, 'western gamers' refers to the 18-35 market who dominate software and hardware sales. They predominately purchase sports, open world, adventure, FPS and western RPG titles. You can call them mature gamers if you want; it's all the same. It's bloody obvious what I've been referring to though. Your average Nintendo gamer does NOT fit into this group. Nintendo do not target that group; Sony and MS do.

 

I think the confusion on your part here is that you seem to think 'western games' means anyone living to the west of Japan.

[canand]

Nintendo NX won't be a hybrid it will be a platform like what Apple and Android does 2 devices with the same OS Filmware that's what Iwata said

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Man, this thread is reminiscent of having Christians and Muslims in the same room arguing about the same ish for the last 1500 years... All we need now are a few Nintendo logo clad crusaders and some Sony extremists to complete this messed up vision.

[Ashley]

I really didn't put those statistics up with the intention of having them picked apart. Of course they're just vague numbers and time scale comes into it. I only did it to disprove the theory that "Western gamers don't care about Nintendo games". The reality is they sell extremely well, far better than most big AAA games that aren't called COD, GTA and FIFA. I should have realised that daring to suggest Nintendo sells a lot of games would have caused such uproar on here. Silly me for being positive.

 

You're doing yourself no favours then as you appear to be making things up in the hopes that nobody will check. If you want to disprove something you need to provide proof. Otherwise you're just doing yourself a disservice and not meeting your intended goal.

[Rummy]

I really didn't put those statistics up with the intention of having them picked apart. Of course they're just vague numbers and time scale comes into it. I only did it to disprove the theory that "Western gamers don't care about Nintendo games". The reality is they sell extremely well, far better than most big AAA games that aren't called COD, GTA and FIFA. I should have realised that daring to suggest Nintendo sells a lot of games would have caused such uproar on here. Silly me for being positive.

 

What's good for the goose is not good for the gander?

 

You have no idea of how to debate and discuss things Ronnie. Of course, I'm not saying that with the intention of having it picked apart or disputed, so we'll leave it there and settle it completely in my favour

[Pestneb]

Overwatch, The Witcher, Geometry Wars 3, Until Dawn, Tropico 5, CoD, Dishonored, Knack are wildly different games, to name just a few.

 

The problem with the argument is many fold - a.) who defines these genres? b.) what if two games that fall into a 'genre' wildly differ do you then redefine it(see multiplayer online shooter and first person team based shooter in above quoted post; the latter would technically fall into the former) c.) Just being able to name different genres and variety on one system does not automatically mean it has more or equal variety compared to another system - this comes to Kav's point about having 5 games available vs having 100 games available.

 

Again, variety and diversity comes both within AND across genres - however in Nintendo's case due to them primarily supporting their system I'd say diversity within is less(let's again take MK7+MK8, both 'racers' by genre, but very little variety between).

 

As for taking some lesser selling titles and saying how they've been outsold by Wii U titles - surely it could equally be taken to take bigger selling titles on the competition to say they've outsold the Wii U titles to make the same point but in favour of the competition?

 

sure, it's like having a picture with one shade of red, green and blue, while another picture has just greens and blues, but it has several different hues.

 

I would argue Nintendo have a variety of genres that cover the spectrum, but using the colour analogy, they have 1 or two shades of each colour, while other consoles have 10 or 20.

 

Nintendo have good coverage with platformers, fighters is maybe a little weak, shooters is certainly weak (part of why imo splatoon did so remarkably well), racers actually are quite weak, action even is a bit lacking. So several areas to improve

 

And back to sub genres, yes you split them, much like we do colours. For example, Navy Blue and Sky Blue, most of us know what those two colours are.

 

The point being made against that is that they will lack diversity due to it. Simply 'genre'-ing it will not suddenly make it diverse. Look at the actual diversity of titles - SM3DL, SM3DW, MK7, MK8; both combine from their handheld and console offerings(relevant due to NX's rumoured hybrid nature) to give 4 games across two genres but within themselves the diversity and variety is rather lacking compared to that available on a competing system(which does not, to me, 'bode well').

 

I don't think land and world would be made for a hybrid - one game would have been made. Same with MK. That would free up enough resources to produce 2 big hitting titles. I actually think that the move could up the diversity. What if they work on making a broader range of genres, or diversifying within the genres they excel at?

 

 

Out of interest, what types of games would people say Nintendo are lacking - what kind of game do you think would fill out their library to make it more compelling and attract a broader range of gamers?

 

Let's take the racers alone - what are Nintendo systems offering against a wealth including Project Cars, Drive Club, F1, Dirt Rally, NFS, Trials, The Crew, MXGP, WRC, Table Top Racing, Carmageddon etc? That's....11 within that racing genre and still 'just to name a few'(sticking with the 'racing' genre). Can you give me 11 racers on the WiiU/3DS combined? So far we have MK7, MK8, Sonic Racing Transformed, Fast Racing Neo which makes...4. Even ignoring the general lack of variety between MK7 and MK8. The 11 I've named I believe are all available on a single competing system to the WiiU/NX etc. That's a single genre - I imagine the pattern would be further repeated and demonstrated within others.

Well on the Wii U alone:

Fast racing Neo

Race the Sun

Mario Kart 8

Rock N Racing off road

Jet Tailfin

Super Toy cars

F1 Race stars

TNT racers

NFS Most wanted

Sonic & all stars racing transformed.

 

That's actually not bad. I actually own 5 of those because the racing genre is one of my favourites, and for the subset of the genre that I enjoy I'm actually 100% covered. not that that matters for the wider picture!

 

So in light of those titles, I'll fix your post

How is that 10 vs 11 going to attract people and further development to the NX? How is it going to attract consumers? How is that going to make the console a success? This is what it comes back to(and the thread topic) - with equal diversity compared to the competition how can we truly expect the console to be that great a success? We've clearly seen the impact of this on the Wii U, and the success of it on the competition.

[Rummy]

I don't think land and world would be made for a hybrid - one game would have been made. Same with MK. That would free up enough resources to produce 2 big hitting titles. I actually think that the move could up the diversity. What if they work on making a broader range of genres, or diversifying within the genres they excel at?

 

Tbh I left it open for this point to be raised - a collapsing could arguably reduce diversity(or maybe sales) further as you wouldn't get this dual releasing - and it takes some numbers off of those originally quoted if we consider it like that. However you raise a very good counter point in that it will potentially allow for resources to be focused on other avenues. I'd dare say the theory/strategy so far however has been specifically to focus on and make these titles across systems with little variation knowing they will sell to a majority of the system owners and it's a safe and easy play.

 

As for the racers - you're still 1 behind and yet I've still named only a limited amount. Kudos to you though as it looks very much to me like you ended up drawing your inspiration for titles from the same place as I did You know how many more I'll draw on if needed too :p

Edited August 16, 2016 by Rummy

[Pestneb]

Looking on metacritic

Wii U 80-100 scores: 58

Xbox one: 90

PS4: 153

 

More than the library of games and diversity, I think diversity and library of quality games counts. I think those stats tell us why the Wii U isn't so attractive. for a 5 year period (and xbox one and PS4 still have strong legs) the wii U releases one 80% game a month on average. the Xbox double that, PS triples it. if someone likes 25% of all those 80% games then on the wii u they have 3 games a year, xbox 6 and PS 9 games a year.

 

Obviously it isn't that straight forward, but 3rd parties supporting a console strongly (and indies flocking in) improves the chance of a console owner getting value for money from their console.

 

 

Having said that, if Nintendo weren't involved heavily on the software side it would drop further, so they are doing an amazing job supporting the Wii U, from a software perspective. Much like the gamecube this is so very deja vu... which makes me somewhat optimistic for the NX

Edited August 16, 2016 by Pestneb

[canand]

Nintendo NX is going to be a Eco System remember