(Maybe) Bye bye US Netflix [falsified]

[Mr-Paul]

I remember reading somewhere a while ago that the right holders were more concerned about those using VPNs to access Netflix in countries where Netflix isn't available - for example, there isn't an Australian version of Netflix, and they don't want people in Australia using a VPN to sign up for the US version, as if they are getting their media from US Netflix, they are less likely to be paying for services from the Australian rights holders, affecting the industry in Australia.

 

Unfortunately, it's the way the film/TV rights industry works. Companies will pay big money for the rights of programming - if Sony Pictures has sold exclusive rights to Sky/Amazon/Netflix for a film, it wants me to pay for that service in that country to see it - and it doesn't want people using US Netflix to watch these shows because it relies on people signing up to these services as these are the companies that pay them. If people don't sign up for these services, Sky/Netflix/Amazon won't be paying the film company for the rights, and they won't be making any money.

 

It is annoying when there's something I want to see on Amazon Prime that is on US Netflix but not our Netflix, and I don't have Amazon Prime, but that's just the way it goes and how the TV/film industry makes its money.

 

(Note: I totally use US Netflix all the time and would be pissed off if they removed the ability to "roam", but would understand totally if they region locked accounts to keep the TV/film industry happy.)

[Sheikah]

It's VERY few users, and they won't give a shit whether those very few users want to break the law and who don't care about the wider industry. So no, it doesn't matter in this case. All that matters is providing a great service, which they kind of do; you sound a bit a like a brat - I want everything and if I can't have it I'll throw my dummy out!!

 

It doesn't matter whether a lot of people will be affected or just a small proportion. The point is that no matter what the size of the effect, the effect is a bad one. A proportion of these technically minded people, as a result of this, will not renew their Netflix subscriptions, and instead turn to piracy. Why? Because the very reason they're using VPNs in the first place (often at additional expense) is because they want to watch shows quicker than they otherwise could.

 

And come on, you're really doing yourself a disservice by going down this road. "Throwing my dummy out"? I'm not sure who you're reasoning with here; me, or pirates everywhere? Do you think pointing out that people should behave honourably is a clever way to address the clear problem here? Piracy exists for a reason. Some people will never pay, but most will if a great system is created in which (like Grunch put very well) the pirates don't get a better service over the legitimate customers. This is why change is needed; a carrot rather than the stick.

[dazzybee]

It doesn't matter whether a lot of people will be affected or just a small proportion. The point is that no matter what the size of the effect, the effect is a bad one. A proportion of these technically minded people, as a result of this, will not renew their Netflix subscriptions, and instead turn to piracy. Why? Because the very reason they're using VPNs in the first place (often at additional expense) is because they want to watch shows quicker than they otherwise could.

 

And come on, you're really doing yourself a disservice by going down this road. "Throwing my dummy out"? I'm not sure who you're reasoning with here; me, or pirates everywhere? Do you think pointing out that people should behave honourably is a clever way to address the clear problem here? Piracy exists for a reason. Some people will never pay, but most will if a great system is created in which (like Grunch put very well) the pirates don't get a better service over the legitimate customers. This is why change is needed; a carrot rather than the stick.

 

But what you want can't happen. You want instant change for a perfect world. Impossible. This way a very small minority gets burned, your way content creators get burned, and I know who wins out every single time for me!!

 

People don't like it, then pirate away. But yielding would be the worst action possible.

[Sheikah]

Content creators don't win because the kind of people that are being locked out will either A) get another VPN (they pop up all the time) or B) pirate it. Some of the money that would have gone to Netflix (and the content producers downstream) is lost. It's a lose-lose all round, really.

[MoogleViper]

Content creators don't win because the kind of people that are being locked out will either A) get another VPN (they pop up all the time) or B) pirate it. Some of the money that would have gone to Netflix (and the content producers downstream) is lost. It's a lose-lose all round, really.

 

It's lose for Netflix, lose for the content creators, and lose for the consumers - but win for the distributors.

 

That's what needs to change. We're moving away from a regional, bricks-and-mortar, physical copy world. The current system isn't relevant, and it needs to acknowledge that. Most of it is (as we see with the rise of Netflix and indie/self-published works). However the ones that have the most to lose from this change currently have a lot of power.

[Rummy]

It always amuses me how backwards some of these industries are. They complain about piracy, yet continue to hike CD/DVD prices. Services like Netflix and Spotify come along, and people flood to them. Proving that people are willing to spend money, but for a service that suits their need, not the old industry that's becoming less relevant.

 

So what do the industries do? Restrict access yet again, pushing more people to piracy.

 

Outside:

But...we are an industry and we need to make money in order to stay alive, those filthy pirates are stealing all our income! Let's stop them!!

 

Inside:

But...I'm a business and I need to make money in order to stay alive, preferably all of it, and you other businesses are stealing all my income! I'll stop you!!!

 

Just business and corporate greed, I wholly agree with yourself on the foolishness of it and trying to work by an old model. It's licensing though, and someone's not getting all the money so wah wah wah, it's not fair.

 

As you said though, there's probably only a small/niche amount of Netflixers probably actually making use of non-home-region libraries techniques, so in the long run...it won't affect all that many people apart from Netflix themselves a little bit.

[dazzybee]

Content creators don't win because the kind of people that are being locked out will either A) get another VPN (they pop up all the time) or B) pirate it. Some of the money that would have gone to Netflix (and the content producers downstream) is lost. It's a lose-lose all round, really.

 

I'm sorry, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. It doesn't work like that, no industry works like that, no equivalent situation works like that, it's the very worst way of dealing with the situation. You watching a film on US netflix and not UK netflix or sky or whoever has the rights at that time, is reducing the UK's rights value, you not being able to watch US netflix and you pirate it instead, you know what, NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!!!

 

 

Oh god this discussion.... so an industry that has worked in a very specific way for an extremely long time, involving billions of pounds, thousands of people, every territory in the world, hundreds of huge organisations... should change in a fucking instant because technology has turned things on its head... Yep. Definitely that simple...

 

I give up!! Never read so much ridiculousness and lack of desire to understand something in my life, just a really emotional, impulsive - it doesn't help me so it is WRONG!!!!!!!

Edited January 5, 2015 by dazzybee

[Goafer]

No one said it was simple, but every so often a new technology comes along and companies have to adapt or die. Digital cameras killed Kodak, smartphones killed Motorola and video killed the radio star.

 

As far as Netflix goes, I very rarely use the US version because I watch most things on my phone or Chromecast. My process is similar to Guy's: Bluray/DVD, Netflix UK, Netflix US, torrent/stream, with anything beyond Netflix UK being reserved for stuff I really want to watch, to the point where I'll get off my fat arse and watch it on the PC.

 

The Netflix UK service is enough for me, which is nice because that's what the price is for. It does amuse me that people are complaining because their service has been "downgraded" to exactly what is advertised/being payed for. I can understand the frustration though, as I do think region locking stuff is a bit silly nowadays when we're all connected as well as we are.

[MoogleViper]

Oh god this discussion.... so an industry that has worked in a very specific way for an extremely long time, involving billions of pounds, thousands of people, every territory in the world, hundreds of huge organisations... should change in a fucking instant because technology has turned things on its head... Yep. Definitely that simple...

 

I give up!! Never read so much ridiculousness and lack of desire to understand something in my life, just a really emotional, impulsive - it doesn't help me so it is WRONG!!!!!!!

 

Nobody has said that the industry will wake up tomorrow and change instantly. We're all fully aware that change takes time, and markets don't work perfectly.

 

You keep inferring meaning onto other people's posts. You draw implications, that weren't there, in order to argue with them. And your argument is basically "That's not gonna happen, be realistic, get your head out of the clouds". A lot of the posts you're arguing with weren't intended to be realistic, they were just examining something wrong with the current state of affairs. It's easy to examine what's wrong with something, and that's what they were doing. Why you feel the need to so aggressively bring everyone back down to earth I don't know.

[Sheikah]

I'm sorry, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. It doesn't work like that, no industry works like that, no equivalent situation works like that, it's the very worst way of dealing with the situation. You watching a film on US netflix and not UK netflix or sky or whoever has the rights at that time, is reducing the UK's rights value, you not being able to watch US netflix and you pirate it instead, you know what, NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!!!

 

 

You realise what people are complaining about here is that the industry is outdated, right? You're telling me how the industry works, but nobody here is in any doubt about how it works. You're misunderstanding everyone.

 

The point here is that society has changed but the industry has not. We get our content through the internet these days and expectations have changed. You're complaining that people should wait and be grateful for what they get. That is such an antiquated attitude and totally at odds with reality. Steam have it right in offering games to everyone, not staggering releases. When people point this out you then complain that changing isn't easy and there is no perfect system. Just accept the very valid criticism people are giving and stop being so bleeding defensive.

[dazzybee]

But people aren't just critisizing, they're saying it is wrong and they're now going resort to piracy, which is a very real immediate issue, not a hypothetical critique of the industry. So stop saying I'm inferring anything about what people are saying, people are stating it pretty clearly. As always when there's contention, revisionist history - we didn't mean that! Yes you did.

 

Sheikah you say there been no doubt about how it works, again, revisionist. People clearly said it will hurt netflix, its content creators, had no understanding at all on how distribution is handled at all. So I don't think people do know how the industry works, why should they, it's complictaed and an utter mess.

 

This whole thing was about the decision to stop allowing it and peoe resorting to piracy, I said they have to do it and it's implrtant for the industry. People changed the discussion sightly. But ultimately there seems to be no understanding of this decision and everyone just seemed to be pissed off about it.

 

Anyways, bored. And Spurs just bottled it against burnley

[Sheikah]

It will hurt Netflix, even if only slightly (because of the small proportion who VPN). Because you will get some people resorting to piracy as a result, assuming they don't VPN hop. I don't care about your view on piracy - this is a discussion about what will happen in the case of some people. Don't take offence and just consider the points being raised.

 

It's not at all difficult to work this out dazzy. If even 10% of current VPNers cancelled their accounts as a result of being blocked and went to piracy, that's a negative result to Netflix and the industry. Heck, that'd even happen if it was 1%.

[dazzybee]

It will hurt Netflix, even if only slightly (because of the small proportion who VPN). Because you will get some people resorting to piracy as a result, assuming they don't VPN hop. I don't care about your view on piracy - this is a discussion about what will happen in the case of some people. Don't take offence and just consider the points being raised.

 

It's not at all difficult to work this out dazzy. If even 10% of current VPNers cancelled their accounts as a result of being blocked and went to piracy, that's a negative result to Netflix and the industry. Heck, that'd even happen if it was 1%.

 

Okay, last post on this

 

It maybe a 'slight' knock on Netflix on a really crude immediate level. But ultimately doesn't help them trying to grow a business all over the world. More people use US netflix, UK netflix stalls, gets less stuff on their service etc eventually it's weakened as a whole, which could affect them far more in the long run. Who knows, but could easily happen.

 

But it will affect them in that it creates bad relationships with content makers/distributors. So bad.

 

But fuck netflix. I don't care about them.

 

It WILL NOT AFFECT THE INDUSTRY in a bad way. Because allowing this way of being, making it easy etc is bad for the industry as it stands and weakens local territory distribution models. In this situation, ours. The stronger our own distribution channels are, the more money will be given to the content makers.

 

It's all quite interesting I guess. And it's all changing. Like i say, I hope for all independent content makers, particularly of non-theatrical works (which is slowly becoming everything bar huge studio films) to control their own distribution deals so don't lose loads of money to sales agents.

 

But honestly, imagine I sell my film to Netflix US, and then sell it to Sky in the UK, and everyone in the UK watches it on Netflix US. My next film Sky are going to say Fuck you!!

[MoogleViper]

But people aren't just critisizing, they're saying it is wrong and they're now going resort to piracy, which is a very real immediate issue, not a hypothetical critique of the industry. So stop saying I'm inferring anything about what people are saying, people are stating it pretty clearly. As always when there's contention, revisionist history - we didn't mean that! Yes you did.

 

Yes people are saying that this is going to cause people to turn away from Netflix and resort to piracy, and that's true (though the extent and numbers being thrown have been massively over-exaggerated, which I did touch upon at the beginning). There was a clear trend seen in the rise of piracy, and then a decrease when services like Netflix and Spotify came out. So clearly anything that turns people away from Netflix will turn them to piracy, or competitors.

 

Which is one of the reasons for the industry doing this, which I'll admit doesn't seem to be understood by everyone. If Amazon have paid a lot of money to ensure exclusivity of a certain show in a particular region, then the distributors need to ensure that they get that exclusivity. Otherwise they lose the money from Amazon.

 

But therein lies the issue with the current system. That worked fine when people either watched something on Sky or they didn't. But now everyone under 40 knows how to watch any TV show online for free, hence why restricting service to customers will turn them to piracy. And that's the point that people are trying to make (which was summed up quite well in Grunch's post).

 

This whole thing was about the decision to stop allowing it and peoe resorting to piracy, I said they have to do it and it's implrtant for the industry. People changed the discussion sightly. But ultimately there seems to be no understanding of this decision and everyone just seemed to be pissed off about it.

 

It's important for the distributors and the industry as it currently stands. But as Goafer touched upon, the old industry is struggling, whereas new media like Netflix and Blinkbox are doing very well. Hence why people are saying there needs to be change. The world has changed drastically in the past year, people want content on-demand; Youtube stars are some of the biggest celebrities; and the industry big wigs are scratching their heads trying to figure out what's going wrong. People seem to assume that the current state of industry works well, and that the CEOs are where they are so they must know what they're doing. Actually they're where they are because they knew what they were doing up until know. But even the largest industries fall, and where stood at the precipice of a revolution. Yes it's naive to think that things will change overnight, but they will change. And it's the innovative services like Netflix that will rise out of the ashes, while the old industry will be left wondering what happened.

 

Sorry I got a bit carried away there and lost track.

[Sheikah]

That last part is a good point, really hits home how this is one of the problems with the current system that people have been saying.

 

Say I used US Netflix to watch your film rather than wait 4 months for it to come to UK (because let's say that wait would be the trigger for me to go to US Netflix instead). Ultimately it's +1 view for your film whether it's UK or US Netflix you viewed. In the past, those distributors had much more importance as people had no other means of getting content. Now, there's no reason at all why people couldn't get their content from one Netflix site rather than it being available at several different ones at different times.

 

Nobody here is providing the answers because they no doubt require a lot of thinking through, but you can see where the criticism is coming from.

[dazzybee]

Good points, but I guess I don't blame anyone. Everyone is really struggling, financially, and also struggling to figure out the best thing to do. The main money is STILL in physical goods, but that is decreasing at a rapid pace so there's going to be 2-3 years tops of that. Everyone is still fighting on to that shrinking market while it's there. Then that market becomes a hobbyist market and we'll see crazy special editions and crazy boxes, more expensive, but it'll be pretty awesome I imagine. And obviously this is why they're trying to get tech to keep improving image quality, so streaming companies can't quite catch up. I think this is a losing battle, but they'll keep going to lengthen out the physical goods market.

 

In the mean time everyones figuring out what to do digitally. Fact is, companies don't just want to bend over and give control to Netflix. I reckon companies will all create their own channels and charge for the full back catalogues, then pay residuals to the artists. Indies will then get a few to choose from. Ah who knows. It's utterly mental and all I hope for is for a platform for independent filmmakers to get their films out in the world and for opportunities for bigger things....

[MoogleViper]

That last part is a good point, really hits home how this is one of the problems with the current system that people have been saying.

 

That I get a bit carried away and lose track? I didn't realise that I was that important to the current system.

 

Then that market becomes a hobbyist market and we'll see crazy special editions and crazy boxes, more expensive, but it'll be pretty awesome I imagine.

 

Yeah but those people will be really pretentious and irritating. Case in point: vinyl records.

 

all I hope for is for a platform for independent filmmakers to get their films out in the world and for opportunities for bigger things....

 

That will come. Just look at the rise of indie gaming and unsigned artists. Indie film-making has already seen steps forward, but as it's more costly to make and involves more bandwidth/file-size it's a little more difficult than music.

[Sheikah]

Sorry my post was in response to dazzy's, you ninjad me while I was typing. :p

[dazzybee]

That will come. Just look at the rise of indie gaming and unsigned artists. Indie film-making has already seen steps forward, but as it's more costly to make and involves more bandwidth/file-size it's a little more difficult than music.

 

Yeah, I don't mean kill it off, it's easier than ever to make a film, but already the big investors won't make films say 30-80m range; they make small films, they make huge films, but the lower, mid, upper mid range are already pretty much destroyed. Then what happens is the lower end is filled with much bigger stars than they used to (bad for up and coming actors), better writers and other crew etc It all squeezes everything out the bottom.

 

So although indies will always be made, but where does the talent go after that? That's the concern. But we'll see I guess. But it's a huge worry in the industry.

[Charlie]

Yeah, was a little exaggeration there. More like 20-30% maybe.

 

I think even that number is too high. Everyone who goes on NE is in the minority when it comes to tech. We (mostly) know what we're talking about. Ask any random Joe from the street and he won't know that you can get onto the US Netflix and probably won't even care.

[Rummy]

You watching a film on US netflix and not UK netflix or sky or whoever has the rights at that time, is reducing the UK's rights value, you not being able to watch US netflix and you pirate it instead, you know what, NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!!!

 

Didn't read a whole lot of the debate yet, but I think what you're saying here - streaming from US for US exclusive content(whilst in UK, and paying your money to UK, who pay money to UK etc and NOT to US) is equivalent to piracy. In some ways, yeah, at the moment it is.

 

BUT. Distribution in the US via Netflix as opposed to just being widely pirated? There's a legitimacy for the former, and maybe if legitimate demand in US is great enough(more measurable through Netflix as a legitimate avenue) then a potential to distribution in the UK/other markets. You get a 1,000,000 views for your show on Netflix US, only 50,000 of those are actually from within the US - clearly your show is a success but will you be able to measure, judge and react to that when it's being pirated?

 

And the argument people seem to be making similar to it - break down geographical boundaries on the higher level and have a larger pooled market where the origin of your content/payment(or demand rather) isn't as important as the actual general demand itself. If 1,000,000 people watch a U.S. made show but only 50,000 of them are from the U.S. - should those other 950,000 viewers be irrelevant due to the fact of licensing etc? Should you as a content creator lose out? Or should the system change to recognise it?

 

^That's a big industry change of course - though as someone mentioned Steam has managed(with hiccups of note, mind, but wholly managed) and it's been quite a successful platform from it.

 

The internet is global, transcending geographical boundaries. Services operating on it should try to catch up - imagine if every time you liked or shared something on facebook, here, various social media outlets etcetc you got smacked with some silly geographical restrictions? The internet is revolutionary due to its worldwide connectivity, that's not something we should be working away from with it.

 

But honestly, imagine I sell my film to Netflix US, and then sell it to Sky in the UK, and everyone in the UK watches it on Netflix US. My next film Sky are going to say Fuck you!!

 

Ah. I see you've already kind of addressed it. The simple counter point I'd offer - wouldn't Netlix US say 'Fuck yes! We want you!' Not going to be terrible to hit the US, as a bigger market than the UK - or even, god forbid, some new service than transcends geographical boundaries and covers them both for you in one nice, tidy, global market deal!

[jayseven]

At the moment people are freaking out based on a report by torrentfreak. Who are the current source of this whole drama.

 

I don't honestly believe it's anything legit yet.

[DriftKaiser]

Can't wait for the day when the media industry finally embrace the change from the geographical restrictions to the worldwide access to their contents.

 

Unless the old fossils from the future decided to adopt the planetary restrictions based on the geographical restrictions once we left Earth to colonize the other planets.

[Iun]

Well, I'm sitting here in China, the Piracy Capital of the Universe (sorry Altair 4), and if I want to give any money to Netflix it has to be via a VPN. There are licencing laws here, but they might as well be written on toilet paper.

 

In a way it comes down to this: you can have money, or not have money. China is a unique case, however.

[dazzybee]

Didn't read a whole lot of the debate yet, but I think what you're saying here - streaming from US for US exclusive content(whilst in UK, and paying your money to UK, who pay money to UK etc and NOT to US) is equivalent to piracy. In some ways, yeah, at the moment it is.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying even remotely I'm just explaining the reasons it can have a negative impact on content financers/makers To go against the condemnation of the idea.