Nintendo Next Gen Handheld

[Sheikah]

I'm posting this message using the Moto G. :p

It's a lovely phone. I really like it.

 

See! Good and affordable. What say ye now @Serebii! It can be done for cheap.

[Serebii]

And what's the game performance on it like? What's the battery life like when playing a game rendering at 720p 60fps?

[Daft]

Surely it doesn't even matter how good the phone is, only that the components are cheap (which they are and increasingly will be as time goes by). I would have thought a next-gen handheld with vastly increase PPI would be expected. Considering how prevalent excellent screens are nowadays, anything less is embarrassing.

 

I'm actually amazed this discussion has gone on all day.

[Sheikah]

And what's the game performance on it like? What's the battery life like when playing a game rendering at 720p 60fps?

 

Anything is better than the 3DS battery, surely. Why 60 fps?

 

If it could do games to look somewhat better than GameCube at 720p then that'd be a natural progression from the previous device. Most Nintendo handheld games aren't graphic monsters but that doesn't mean they can't benefit from resolution upping.

 

Again, increase in resolution does not automatically mean they must be pushing the boundary on graphics.

[Cube]

And what's the game performance on it like? What's the battery life like when playing a game rendering at 720p 60fps?

 

Surprisingly good - comparable with phones three times the price. Nobody has done tests for exact framerate, but it rungs games like Modern Combat 4 and Real Racing 3 smoothly.

 

You also have to take into account that the device and OS aren't built specifically for games. A console manufacturer would be able to create a device with similar specs, but much more suited for gaming.

 

Another thing to take into account is the screen size. People aren't pushing the same graphics to these devices as games made for large HDTVs. The detail isn't needed, and the competition for fancier graphics is nowhere near as fierce as home consoles. You can have simpler, but much sharper graphics. We're not talking about putting console games on a handheld.

 

Based on this, I think a fairly cheap handheld games console with a 60fps 720p display is perfectly feasible. Even more so in the next few years.

[Jonnas]

Why 60 fps?

 

I couldn't care less for the technological discussion this thread has had, but I will say this: making sure that a game runs smoothly should be a top priority, graphically speaking. It's much more noticeable than a slightly lower resolution, as those are much easier to get used to.

 

Just saying, I think you've dismissed this aspect way too easily in your posts.

[Pestneb]

I think this basically shows how inaccurate that chart you went by is. Even holding my 3DS XL 30cm away from my face, it is really obvious that the resolution is poor. Are you suggesting that because of the distance you hold it at, you wouldn't be able to tell much difference between say the 3DS XL and a same sized screen at 720p?

 

For me, it's really obvious when switching between Vita and 3DS XL, and the Vita isn't even 720p.

 

 

The 3DSXL

1) it has a lower resolution than 480P.

2) the screen is larger than the 4.5" benchmark I mentioned.

 

So actually, from what I wrote, you can surmise that I would even notice the difference if the resolution was increased to 480P.

 

It may help if you practice close reading strategies rather than skim reading and projecting what you anticipate was planned to be said.

 

Thats flawed and reminds of when people tried to argue with TV's people cant tell the difference between 720p & 1080p unless they are a certain distance from the screen which again was BS.

 

not entirely so.

 

there is a point at which the human eye ceases to distinguish between two points. If you imagine a 1080p display, if you areplaced too close you will see individual pixels. Move back and you will cease to see the individual discrete pixels and will see the 1080p image as it was intended. If you continue to move back you will at a certain point only be able to distinguish as much detail as though the image were 720p.

At that point, the image being changed to 720p resolution would make no difference to the image perceived.

 

True, I remember that.

 

Still, it's not as flawed as people suggesting the new handhelds should only have 480p. :p

 

So you are agreeing that that suggestion is also flawless?

[Sheikah]

And I think people have to understand equivalence. I don't recall the eye's sensitivity, which obviously does come into play, seeing as most of us play games on the tv at a greater distance from the screen than we would when using a handheld. But

 

1080p 60" = 720p 40" = 480P ~27" = 320p 16" = ~200p ~10"

 

that obviously suggests the 3DS should look great at a far lower resolution than it is now - I won't argue that, as stated, how close the viewer is to the screen is another factor, but from what I can gather, for a 4.5" screen, at 480p, the optimum viewing distance is about 30cm. at 720p that decreases to 18cm. Personally I find I (just measured) naturally hold my console about 30cm from my face... so to benefit from 720p I would need a screen exceeding 7" diagonal, assuming a 16:9 ratio.

That's larger than my 3DSXL, let alone it's screen.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to compare the 3DS (which is lower), however the crux of your post is still what I debate. You're saying here (bolded) that you wouldn't benefit from a 720p screen over a 480p screen due to holding the unit 30 cm away. There is no way that you wouldn't benefit from 720p at that distance.

 

Not only that, but as liger said - that data is bogus. It has been used in similar discussions before and it's simply untrue. The differences between many of those resolutions are really obvious even at far distances.

 

@Jonnas fair enough. I personally wouldn't go with 480p on such a screen size to get 60 fps due to how crappy and antiquated it would look (not to mention the unit is full of titles that would not benefit as strongly as some other genres would). I know some people would like 60 fps, and I would too, but I think Nintendo shouldn't limit themselves there to get it. If anything, try for both, but keep the graphical power at the level of the GameCube.

 

I mean, it's not to say they couldn't do 60 fps with 720p, while not pushing the system to its limit (like Link Between Worlds didn't push graphics but was 60 fps).

Edited April 7, 2014 by Sheikah

[Pestneb]

Sorry, I didn't mean to compare the 3DS (which is lower), however the crux of your post is still what I debate. You're saying here (bolded) that you wouldn't benefit from a 720p screen over a 480p screen due to holding the unit 30 cm away. There is no way that you wouldn't benefit from 720p at that distance.

 

Not only that, but as liger said - that data is bogus. It has been used in similar discussions before and it's simply untrue. The differences between many of those resolutions are really obvious even at far distances.

 

@Jonnas fair enough. I personally wouldn't go with 480p on such a screen size to get 60 fps due to how crappy and antiquated it would look (not to mention the unit is full of titles that would not benefit as strongly as some other genres would). I know some people would like 60 fps, and I would too, but I think Nintendo shouldn't limit themselves there to get it. If anything, try for both, but keep the graphical power at the level of the GameCube.

 

I mean, it's not to say they couldn't do 60 fps with 720p, while not pushing the system to its limit (like Link Between Worlds).

 

OK, the precise data I used I won't defend too vigorously, I would rather see real life examples and make judgements myself.

 

Second.. sorry but Liger is wrong. It may be denial, placebo or whatever. But there is an optimal viewing distance. To say otherwise, as I understand it, he is saying that if he sits 1ft from his screen he will see no degradation of the image even if he were to stand one mile away... so he can see a blade of grass from a foot away.. or a mile away from the image. That suggests HDTV's are some physics defying super creation.

[Sheikah]

There is definitely a lessening of effect resolution has the further you sit, but that data ain't right. Maybe it was made for squinty moles, heh.

[dazzybee]

Yet another thread has descended into an argument over utter bullshit.... Oh well. Shame, would have been nice to chat about the next handheld.

[Pestneb]

There is definitely a lessening of effect resolution has the further you sit, but that data ain't right. Maybe it was made for squinty moles, heh.

 

Tbh you really ought to get some reliable data if you're going to discredit the stuff I found

 

long/short sightedness does have an effect, I imagine shortsighted individuals would be more in need of higher resolutions for their handhelds, where as longsighted individuals would cope with lower resolutions.

 

I am actually interested in finding out what the ideal ppi for a individual with 20/20 vision would be now... there is a calculation but I forget all the technical terms so I can't seem to find it : /

 

Interesting.

Found another site:http://jaredjared.com/2012/10/visual-acuity-dpi/

 

Using that information, a 480p 4.5" screen

4.5” screen

Pixel Size =0.005625″

Distance = 0.005625 / (2 * Tan (0.0166667/2)) = 19.3″

 

So at 480p, to spot the pixels with average eyesight, you would have to be holding the console about 50cm away.

 

720p

4.5” screen

Pixel Size =0.00375″

Distance = 0.00375 / (2 * Tan (0.0166667/2)) = 12.8″

 

which is about my perfect personal 30cm distance.

 

Nice to have a solid formula to help things along. So on a purely aesthetic standing, on a 4.5" screen 720p would be very pleasant.

but for the 3ds:

top (screen)

4.5” screen

Pixel Size =0.007″

Distance = 0.007 / (2 * Tan (0.0166667/2)) = 30″

That's about 75cm.

 

so actually, 480p would be a huge leap up from the 3ds, cutting the distance you need to hold the console by a whooping 30%....

so it is quite possible Nintendo will go for an improvement on their predecessor over looking at what the competition is doing...

 

oh and mini snippet, the Wii U game pad scores a distance of 22", about 55cm

Edited April 7, 2014 by Pestneb

[Sheikah]

Tbh you really ought to get some reliable data if you're going to discredit the stuff I found

 

You don't need reliable data to discredit unreliable data. It discredits itself.

 

Although in truth, I base what I'm saying on real world observation. Generally the things it says about TV distance and resolutions I know first hand to be false.

[Cube]

Anyway, one thing that the next handheld 100% needs is two analogue sticks (or circle pads). From the start, this time.

Also, with bevels on phones getting smaller and smaller, perhaps this time they could have two screens which are the same size and have them virtually touching each other.

 

One thing I do hope is that the "ePen" technology gets cheaper in time for the next one, so Nintendo can have a capacitive screen with a proper stylus.

[Sheikah]

Do people still think a stylus is the way to go? Most touch screens these days have people interact with their fingers. Just wondering what people think about that.

[Serebii]

Do people still think a stylus is the way to go? Most touch screens these days have people interact with their fingers. Just wondering what people think about that.

We did discuss that on the first page, the argument between capacitive and resistive. Resistive is far more accurate so much better for gaming.

 

Anyway, one thing that the next handheld 100% needs is two analogue sticks (or circle pads). From the start, this time.

Also, with bevels on phones getting smaller and smaller, perhaps this time they could have two screens which are the same size and have them virtually touching each other.

 

One thing I do hope is that the "ePen" technology gets cheaper in time for the next one, so Nintendo can have a capacitive screen with a proper stylus.

Having the two screens be identical size on the next device is a necessity. I agree. That way we can get more cross screen play like we had with the DS.

[dazzybee]

Do people still think a stylus is the way to go? Most touch screens these days have people interact with their fingers. Just wondering what people think about that.

 

Tricky one, as finger touch displays are so prevalent, but ultimately the precision of stylus has to win out for gameplay. Shame it can be both.

[Pestneb]

Having the two screens be identical size on the next device is a necessity. I agree. That way we can get more cross screen play like we had with the DS.

Definitely.

Consensus seems to be that touchscreen input will remain... and 3d is superfluous, so is likely to go. So what could be the main feature next time round?

HD graphics has been covered... but where else could they go?

 

For the actual console, what if the next stylus had a wii like system perhaps with the console could some how tracking the position of the stylus?

 

Do people still think a stylus is the way to go? Most touch screens these days have people interact with their fingers. Just wondering what people think about that.

 

well having the stylus can't be that expensive... I use my fingers all the time on my 3ds when just a single tap is required every now and then, I just cba to get the stylus out just to replace it after one or two taps of the screen...

So the current system seems fine to me, a stylus if you want it/for games that use the touch screen extensively, fingers still work if you misplace the stylus/cba to get it out all the time...

[Serebii]

Definitely.

Consensus seems to be that touchscreen input will remain... and 3d is superfluous, so is likely to go. So what could be the main feature next time round?

HD graphics has been covered... but where else could they go?

 

For the actual console, what if the next stylus had a wii like system perhaps with the console could some how tracking the position of the stylus?

Easy. Comes with a headband and you can attach the console to your head and have a pseudo VR headset with the screens right in front of your eyes :p

 

Seriously though, you do bring an interesting point. Nintendo will find a gimmick and push it. (Note: I use the word gimmick with its original intent, not what the way it is used by the gaming community)

[M_rock]

Wacom tablet pens actually do exactly that, they also measure the position when the pen is not touching the tablet surface, and they also measure how much the pen is tilted + pen pressure. It should be noted that these pens cost around 100 euros though :p

 

If I remember correctly the original DS (brick) had a pressure sensitive screen, but nintendo didn't allow devellopers to use it. (It was used in homebrew though) Later revisions of the DS didn't have a pressure sensitive screen. It could be cool to see that feature return, although I'm not sure if it would add alot to gameplay exept for drawing apps.

[Dcubed]

Tricky one, as finger touch displays are so prevalent, but ultimately the precision of stylus has to win out for gameplay. Shame it can be both.

 

And what stops people from using their fingers on a resistive screen? I use my fingers all the time on the 3DS and Wii U touch screens when tapping menu icons and typing letters and it works just fine

 

Even dragging stuff around like the map in Pikmin 3 works just fine with my finger (resistive screens have come a long way since the days of the original DS)...

[Grazza]

Do people still think a stylus is the way to go? Most touch screens these days have people interact with their fingers. Just wondering what people think about that.

 

I much prefer a stylus. It's hard to explain, but I find most touchscreens slightly uncomfortable. Much nicer to press a stylus against a DS/3DS type screen that it is to press my finger against glass and try to get it to react.

[Cube]

Wacom tablet pens actually do exactly that, they also measure the position when the pen is not touching the tablet surface, and they also measure how much the pen is tilted + pen pressure. It should be noted that these pens cost around 100 euros though :p

 

It doesn't need to be as advanced as a Wacom tablet pen. HTC and Samsung both have pen technology for capacitive touch screens, and are much cheaper (they use technology made by Wacom, too) - you can buy an S Pen for around £13 (but the technology still needs to be built into the device).

[dazzybee]

And what stops people from using their fingers on a resistive screen? I use my fingers all the time on the 3DS and Wii U touch screens when tapping menu icons and typing letters and it works just fine

 

Even dragging stuff around like the map in Pikmin 3 works just fine with my finger (resistive screens have come a long way since the days of the original DS)...

 

You CAN use your fingers but it's not close to being as responsive if precise as tablets/phone screens. I have no idea, but is there away to have both to some degree?

[Pestneb]

You CAN use your fingers but it's not close to being as responsive if precise as tablets/phone screens. I have no idea, but is there away to have both to some degree?

 

really? I've typed letters in AC using my fingers with no problems with precision or responsiveness : /