Daft Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Daft.. seriously, this thread has already been locked and cleaned up once. For the love of the mods :wink: Serebii thinks redundancy is a bigger issue, you believe it is weak leadership. As a compromise, perhaps we can all agree that neither compulsory redundancy nor poor leadership are desirable in a company and move on What am I doing wrong? I'm literally just asking for Serebii to back up his conviction. It's not my fault I have to ask multiple times. @Serebii, don't become part of the problem, now. I think others overreacted in the previous discussion, but right now you're pushing it. I happen to think hardware R&D doesn't get in the way of software development as much as you think it does. If they did abandon the Wii U, they'd sack most of people involved with R&D, while the game developers would have to change all their focus. It isn't as simple as "cutting the costs". Of course, the point is still moot if we take into account the amount of profit this division has given them over the years (including now, thanks to the 3DS), and that might still give. Better see if the chicken gives another golden egg before making that soup. Also, the anecdotal example you just gave... was your boss a weak leader in the sense that he was an asshole to the employees, or was he simply a CEO making less money than he expected? And if it was the latter, was he lazy and/or unmotivated about his decisions, or did he simply make the wrong ones? And even if it was the former, are the business/marketing decisions of a CEO relevant to game developers, or are the game developers happy to make their games as long as they come out good and they get their money? All these factors into account, I'm with Serebii and pestneb on this. The thought of seeing your job completely retooled (with strong possibility of unemployment) is a worse outcome than simply "Oh, we're making less money than we could". Mind you, I'm talking about developers. The sort of employee that guys like Miyamoto and Iwata hold in higher esteem, and whose morale they value the most. I'm not using my anecdote as counter-proof, I'm using it to say anecdotal evidence is useless. I don't think R&D gets in the way of game development but I do believe that money could be better invested into game development. Also, I'm not sure why the developers would have to change their focus. I might be missing your point, though.
Kav Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah, I asked Daft to, given that he was the one so adamant proof was required. I didn't actually care for the proof myself, I was just making a point that he was demanding proof yet have none himself. What am I doing wrong? I'm literally just asking for Serebii to back up his conviction. It's not my fault I have to ask multiple times. But why should he? If it's his "conviction" then surely it's his to believe, he should have to prove that. By all means disagree but he shouldn't have to prove himself to you. It's his opinion on the matter.
Retro_Link Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Discussions would be easier if Serebii could provide us with quotes to back up his absolutes, and did not just conveniently gloss over posts that actually counteract points he makes. It's often not his opinion he's stating, it's Nintendo's. If 'In my opinion' was used then fair enough, but instead the finger is pointed in your face and things are stated as fact.
Pestneb Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Actually anecdotal evidence can be useful, its just not so useful for statistical purposes. Anecdotal evidence is particularly useful in a thread such as this, which lies mostly as a reality inspired fantasy, I think it is useful to see that there are a range of different responses. If Jonnas' questions are responded to it would flesh out your anecdotal evidence and increase its usefulness to the discussion.
Goron_3 Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah, I asked Daft to, given that he was the one so adamant proof was required. I didn't actually care for the proof myself, I was just making a point that he was demanding proof yet have none himself. But why should he? If it's his "conviction" then surely it's his to believe, he should have to prove that. By all means disagree but he shouldn't have to prove himself to you. It's his opinion on the matter. As Retro stated, he stated an absolute. If anyone (not just him, but you and I) are going to outright dismiss someone's opinion or statements on this board, then yes, evidence would be nice. Otherwise, we should all be entitled to state opinions, because let's face it...this IS a forum.
Kav Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) As Retro stated, he stated an absolute. If anyone (not just him, but you and I) are going to outright dismiss someone's opinion or statements on this board, then yes, evidence would be nice. Otherwise, we should all be entitled to state opinions, because let's face it...this IS a forum. Hold on a sec. Serebii was asked why talk of redundancies were relevant, to which he posted this... Redundancies are not common place in Nintendo, especially as they have been expanding in the past year. They are very relevant as they have an effect on staff morale which has an effect on quality of work... Which is fair enough right? He was asked why he thought redundancies were relevant so he gave his thoughts on the matter. It's not an absolute, it's his opinion. He answered as to why he thought they were relevant, ergo an opinion, no? Yet Daft posts this... And making games for a console that's in the pan inspires morale? The biggest killer of morale is going to be a lack of convincing leadership which Nintendo is excelling with at the moment. Stop talking in absolutes... To me, it appears as though Daft has started on the absolutes. Which is why I saw it as simply attacking Serebii for the sake of it. Daft has said that wasn't his intention so I now know it wasn't, but it's not fair to say Serebii is the one talking in absolutes. Edited January 20, 2014 by Kav
Retro_Link Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Even if Nintendo say they are not going to do something, it is far more fun to discuss and speculate regardless, than just have to stop the conversation there and then and sit in silence.
Serebii Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 First to the second point. As someone who has also made snarky comments at Serebii it becomes extremely difficult to debate anything with someone who thinks all they present is fact and logic and therefore are always correct yet "not arrogant" about it. To the first point. Let's look; What evidence is there to suggest that Nintendo's workforce is in any danger of being in jeopardy? None at this point. However you can point to many companies both gaming and non-gaming who have made that successful transition back to profitability by downsizing. Now the evidence of poor leadership. As far back as 2011 there were reports of shareholders wanting to move over to mobile in some way shape or form; http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/11/nintendo-shareholders-still-clamoring-for-mario-on-the-iphone/ They saw a trend and they wanted Nintendo to move in that direction yet Nintendo resisted and we've seen arguably Nintendo's two poorest years in the form of 2012 and 2013. Despite 2013 being a good year for Nintendo gaming thanks to the likes of Luigi's Mansion, Animal Crossing, Mario 3D World, Zelda. It's plain to see that isn't enough in this day and age. Here's a nice quote from techcrunch surmising how shareholders/investors may feel: I think there have been earning/investment calls since this article that have also highlighted this desire from shareholders. So at what point to Nintendo's leadership continue to say this is not the right move? Arguably they've already missed the golden age of mobile gaming now there is too much noise out there and the negative connotations that poorly executed free to play games have unfortunately helped create. Google go out there are tons of market analysts saying this would be a good move for Nintendo both to generate income and sell that brand put it into the hands of the next generation of kids. Make them want the next Nintendo console by giving them a taster. What will it take for Nintendo's leadership to realise that their current business model/plan is not working. DISCLAIMER: I am not a Journalist and this post was written as a result of 5 minutes of research as such there may be discrepancies in my work. People say that about smartphone software, but realistically, we have situations such as this http://gonintendo.com/?mode=viewstory&id=220776 And Cave Story and countless others. So many games earn and sell more on Nintendo's hardware than on smartphones. The reason investors are clamouring for Nintendo to shift to smartphones is because it's the "in" thing at the moment. Just because investors want something does not mean it is the best idea for the company. Many investors are in it for a quick buck and Nintendo's company is not the way to do it, nor are most gaming companies. They're in it for the longhaul, not the smartphone ones where they are massive and then die out, like Zynga did.
flameboy Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah, I asked Daft to, given that he was the one so adamant proof was required. I didn't actually care for the proof myself, I was just making a point that he was demanding proof yet have none himself. But he was asking for proof to back up the counter-argument that had been raised...I replied to your counter of prove it...I found a form of proof to back up these statements and now your saying you don't care for the proof. So you were just saying that to shit stir and cause further problems?
Sheikah Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I asked Daft to, given that he was the one so adamant proof was required. I didn't actually care for the proof myself, I was just making a point that he was demanding proof yet have none himself. But why should he? If it's his "conviction" then surely it's his to believe, he should have to prove that. By all means disagree but he shouldn't have to prove himself to you. It's his opinion on the matter. But Serebii is the one who made a claim. When making a claim you must prove it. You cannot make a claim, then say it is valid until disproven. That's not the way the world works. It's fine to say 'I think', followed by a belief. But he was boldly stating as if it were common knowledge or generally assumed to be true. From what I can understand, Daft cleared up that he's not arguing either way - he's simply asking for proof when Serebii asserted something. I'm often left thinking similarly when he makes bold statements - "Where's the proof?" It's rather bad practice to not substantiate your claims. The hallmark of an amateur. Edited January 20, 2014 by Sheikah
flameboy Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) People say that about smartphone software, but realistically, we have situations such as thishttp://gonintendo.com/?mode=viewstory&id=220776 And Cave Story and countless others. So many games earn and sell more on Nintendo's hardware than on smartphones. The reason investors are clamouring for Nintendo to shift to smartphones is because it's the "in" thing at the moment. Just because investors want something does not mean it is the best idea for the company. Many investors are in it for a quick buck and Nintendo's company is not the way to do it, nor are most gaming companies. They're in it for the longhaul, not the smartphone ones where they are massive and then die out, like Zynga did. You couldn't have referenced a worse game. Actually read the article first.... Bird Mania 3D saw betters sales on 3DS eShop than App Store Jan 20, 2014 by RawmeatCowboy Coming from Teyon... “Bird Mania was definitely a hit and did very well on Nintendo 3DS compared to it’s release on the App Store. It hit the top spot on the Nintendo eShop charts when it was released back in 2012.” I guess when it comes to the 3DS, it makes more sense to buy a cheap Angry Birds knock-off, rather than a retail-priced version of the real thing. On the App store, you can get Angry Birds for really cheap, so why bother with a knock-off? It stands to reason people would buy the cheaper knock off rather than a rip off full price version than on ios where angry birds is cheap...people don't like to be ripped off go figure. Hardly an advert for eshop games outselling ios games. So your first piece of "proof" you use is horrific. I'm not even sure you read it otherwise you wouldn't have put that forward as a reason for Nintendo to not release games on smartphones if your such an intelligent gaming journalist internet personality. You should work for the Daily Mail you might learn something off them. Edited January 20, 2014 by flameboy
Kav Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) But he was asking for proof to back up the counter-argument that had been raised...I replied to your counter of prove it...I found a form of proof to back up these statements and now your saying you don't care for the proof. So you were just saying that to shit stir and cause further problems? No. @Sheikah too... I've posted above how it read, I think asking for proof from Serebii was unfounded given he answered a question directed at him on expressing his views. Given that I felt what seemed like the first absolute came from Daft I felt he should've been the one supplying proof. Hence my posts. Edited January 20, 2014 by Kav
Serebii Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 You couldn't have referenced a worse game. Actually read the article first.... It stands to reason people would buy the cheaper knock off rather than a rip off full price version than on ios where angry birds is cheap...people don't like to be ripped off go figure. Hardly an advert for eshop games outselling ios games. So your first piece of "proof" you use is horrific. I'm not even sure you read it otherwise you wouldn't have put that forward as a reason for Nintendo to not release games on smartphones if your such an intelligent gaming journalist internet personality. You should work for the Daily Mail you might learn something off them. If this were an isolated example, then sure. However, it is not. This is a common thing, even away from dross. Plus, it's nothing like Angry Birds. I only provided that link anyway as it was to hand while I was surfing the web.
Jonnas Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Can we stop the "everything must be proved" debacle, for crying out loud? I don't want anyone else bringing up that subject unless they manage to prove that stubbing a toe hurts without using anecdotal evidence. Surely we're grown up enough to not assume that "I think" is a requirement for every opinion that gets thrown around? I don't think R&D gets in the way of game development but I do believe that money could be better invested into game development. One could also make the case that the money they invest comes from hardware sales in the first place. But that would be arguing in circles, as we made our points clear. Also, I'm not sure why the developers would have to change their focus. I might be missing your point, though. By "change in focus" I meant that a group of employees that has been developing games for consoles made in-house would have to start developing for other companies' consoles. It's a completely different rhythm, and a complete rethink of the way they're used to making games. If you think their shift to HD was rocky, well, imagine if they were dealing with another company's machine for the first time as well. I'm not using my anecdote as counter-proof, I'm using it to say anecdotal evidence is useless. For the record, I may have called it "anecdotal example", but it's not useless. Surely one can see the difference between yours (and flameboy's) experiences with the jobs that Nintendo employees have, and use the as a basis to start drawing a conclusion, that is... And making games for a console that's in the pan inspires morale? The biggest killer of morale is going to be a lack of convincing leadership which Nintendo is excelling with at the moment....if your opinion - that a lack of convincing leadership lowers morale more than an entire restructuring of the company - is a sensible one. Edited January 20, 2014 by Jonnas
flameboy Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 No. I've posted above how it read, I think asking for proof from Serebii was unfounded given he answered a question directed at him on expressing his views. Given that I felt what seemed like the first absolute came from Daft I felt he should've been the one supplying proof. Hence my posts. That's not what you wrote though you said you didn't care for the proof. You never said anything about it's source. You said; Why don't you prove that it doesn't? Why don't you prove your point here... That was more asking for proof about the points being raised not asking for it for the sake of it which is what you seem to making out you did. I backed Daft and provided some proof. Also pretty rude to just start a post out flat with No. Like No you're wrong shut up and listen to me... What I don't get if seribii.net is so fucking fantastic why don't you all piss off and save us all the bother.
Sheikah Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 It doesn't kill morale as much as decimating the workforce. ^ @kav82 this was definitely a statement which deserves a 'prove it', if only to discredit his point (as it obviously can't be proven). He said something that he or us couldn't know to be true or false - for all we know, the opposite could be true in Nintendo's workforce. We just don't know! So that's why he was called out over it. A totally valid shout.
Kav Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 That's not what you wrote though you said you didn't care for the proof. You never said anything about it's source. You said; That was more asking for proof about the points being raised not asking for it for the sake of it which is what you seem to making out you did. I backed Daft and provided some proof. Also pretty rude to just start a post out flat with No. Like No you're wrong shut up and listen to me... What I don't get if seribii.net is so fucking fantastic why don't you all piss off and save us all the bother. You misread it then, it wasn't just the "no" that was my answer, my entire post was my answer. Like I said, I didn't care for the proof personally, I said it for the reasons I'd stated. ^ @kav82 this was definitely a statement which deserves a 'prove it', if only to discredit his point (as it obviously can't be proven). He said something that he or us couldn't know to be true or false - for all we know, the opposite could be true in Nintendo's workforce. We just don't know! So that's why he was called out over it. A totally valid shout. Yet Daft said his absolute first, why aren't people calling out him on it? That's the point I'm making. Daft posted an absolute then told Serebii not to and asked him for proof if his. That's just nuts! That's the whole point of my posts. Which is why I said that it seemed like an attack on Serebii for the sake of attacking him.
Pestneb Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 ^ @kav82 this was definitely a statement which deserves a 'prove it', if only to discredit his point (as it obviously can't be proven). He said something that he or us couldn't know to be true or false - for all we know, the opposite could be true in Nintendo's workforce. We just don't know! So that's why he was called out over it. A totally valid shout. Wow. I only just realised you're employing the powers of irony! nice post
Sheikah Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Wow. I only just realised you're employing the powers of irony! nice post @flameboy wasn't this guy waxing lyrical to you about how to post respectfully yesterday? This sarcastic post levels a great deal of irony right back at him.
flameboy Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 @flameboy wasn't this guy waxing lyrical to you about how to post respectfully yesterday? This sarcastic post levels a great deal of irony right back at him. haha yes indeed he was...although I think these posts are now lost after a much needed clean up!
Sheikah Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 haha yes indeed he was...although I think these posts are now lost after a much needed clean up! Yeah, another spring clean. I feel a little bad, so let's try post on topic. Aaaanyway...dat Nintendo. Third party is the way, totes.
Happenstance Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Third party is the way, totes. I think thats one thing we can all agree on.
liger05 Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 I think Nintendo have to be very careful about what content they could put on smartphones. The handheld business in still healthy enough. What needs to be addressed software prices as I dont care how good a 99p runner is that person who is happy to spend 99p is not going to suddenly want to lay out for £30 for a Mario game.
flameboy Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 I think thats one thing we can all agree on. Well most of us.....
Kav Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Or 2nd Party. I'd not like the idea of 3rd Party exclusives, which could happen. I'd love to buy only one or two consoles.
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