Should Nintendo go 3rd party?!

[Jonnas]

I also think you're owed some apologies (the whole fiasco started because I noticed people were being unusually aggressive when responding to your posts), but the issue doesn't exist solely on one side, and its solution needs to start somewhere.

 

Ashley made the most sensible post I've seen about it, at any rate. He was as respectful as he could be, and we would all do well in following that example.

[Sheikah]

Abyss never came out in Europe before the 3DS version. In fact, nothing came out in Europe for a long time except for Symphonia (distributed and localized thanks to Nintendo), that dreadful Phantasia GBA port, and one Radiant Mythology. They only started to give the series a worldwide treatment with Vesperia (and even then, there are odd omissions. Why weren't Innocence and Hearts released outside of Japan?)

 

But even worse was that, I recall reading a few interviews with the main developers behind the series, and they just didn't care about their western/US audience at all. In an interview with two of the head developers behind Tales of Symphonia, they literally didn't know that the game had been released in Europe.

 

That was a long time ago, but it sure left a bitter taste.

 

You're also forgetting we got Tales of Etetnia, which was the first release of Destiny 2 over here.

 

In some ways I'm not sure what is worse, since we now had something like 4-5 games in the series released over here this/last generation (both handhelds and consoles, including rereleaes). And with more to come (2 more for PS3). I personally think they make sequels too frequently, but I guess it's a good thing people have the choice to play them if they want.

[Zechs Merquise]

The people saying Nintendo should go third party are the ones 'not looking at facts'. Nintendo have always made a profit on their hardware. A huge chunk of their revenue comes from hardware production and historically, every Nintendo console has made a profit on the machine itself.

 

Nintendo's 'failure' this gen has been that due to the adoption of a ridiculously expensive controller they have been forced into taking a loss on their hardware.

 

Taking a loss on hardware is OK for Sony and MS because they have other business interests that can cover that loss. Nintendo don't, they're the only hardware producer that doesn't have the luxury of other products outside of the games industry.

 

If Nintendo were to drop out of hardware production it would severely limit their ability to generate revenue and would mean the company would have to be massively downsized. The redundancies and restructuring would be huge and have an effect on the whole corporation.

 

The idea posted by some that the effect of mass redundancies and corporate restructuring would have no effect on morale (not to mention stock prices) is pure nonsense.

 

What's more, Iwata is getting a lot of stick for not instantly changing tack, but after successful 5 home consoles (all of which made a profit on hardware) you don't simple change your entire business plan based on one failure.

 

If anything is to be learned from the Wii U's sales it is that Nintendo needs to ensure their hardware is low cost, profitable and marketed better.

 

The two (totally contradictory ideas) put forward by people who don't really like Nintendo are both flawed for different reasons:

 

1) If Nintendo had produced a powerhouse console they would have probably taken an even greater loss or had to sell it at a larger price. There is no guarantee it would have sold better. Hence it would not have been a sound business decision.

 

2) If Nintendo went third party, they would lose what has historically been their largest revenue stream - they make more from hardware than they do software.

 

Fine I apologise, but I believe I am owed apologies from various people here who have turned it into personal attacks, just because I disagree with them. Perhaps subconsciously my wording has become hostile because that's the environment we're in here at the moment.

 

Seriously, it feels to me, and I know it is seen that way by many others here, that I am constantly being mistreated and insulted here just because I believe Nintendo aren't doomed.

 

You are being constantly picked on. People speak to you in a far worse tone than they should. The funny thing is though, those doing it are the first to start crying and whining if anyone speaks to them in a funny manner.

 

The site's 'in crowd' are allowed to get away with what ever they want to.

 

Also @Pestnab is correct, the idea that everyone has to write 'In my opinion' before everything they write is total crap. It is obviously your opinion, as you are the one writing it.

[Goron_3]

Actually Zechs, the quotes in the Emily Rogers article from Nintendo personnel show that the GC was always sold at a loss (similar to Wii U) and the N64 was too. Add to that the 3DS and Wii U and you have a few consoles that were sold at a loss. Of course, there are many exceptions (SNES, NES, Wii).

[Serebii]

Actually Zechs, the quotes in the Emily Rogers article from Nintendo personnel show that the GC was always sold at a loss (similar to Wii U) and the N64 was too. Add to that the 3DS and Wii U and you have a few consoles that were sold at a loss. Of course, there are many exceptions (SNES, NES, Wii).

Yeah, and the GBA carried Nintendo for a good portion of the GCN's life.

[Sheikah]

@Zechs Merquise

 

Initial loss is fine, so long as you start to make profit with sales of the games (ie. overall, your console makes a profit). Why is it fine? Because the competition is doing it. Regardless of whether Nintendo can afford to do it, if the competition is offering far better value products for similar prices (e.g. Wii U launch price vs PS4 launch price) then that puts the Wii U in a bad position from the start.

 

 

Whatever Nintendo made money on 'historically' is less than useless - it's the here and now that has Nintendo pretty screwed. Whatever hardware they made buckets from in the past is long gone, and right now they have hardware that isn't selling.

 

It's all very well saying 'they need to learn to make and sell low cost consoles in the future', but is there any guarantee that will work? Will people adopt that en masse? The 3DS is selling well but serves a different purpose. Are people interested in a cheap, low end console? With regards to low end, I think not. Maybe cheap, but who knows?

 

Serebii isn't picked on. I'd say he's either incredibly oblivious to the way he behaves, or is trolling us all.

 

Also @Pestnab is correct, the idea that everyone has to write 'In my opinion' before everything they write is total crap. It is obviously your opinion, as you are the one writing it.

 

Except nobody is saying you should write that. It's the tone and using opinion in a manner like fact to counter people's arguments, and not just occasionally - constantly. The know-it-all know-nothing.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Sheikah
Automerged Doublepost

[Hero-of-Time]

It's all very well saying 'they need to learn to make and sell low cost consoles in the future', but is there any guarantee that will work? Will people adopt that en masse? The 3DS is selling well but serves a different purpose. Are people interested in a cheap, low end console? With regards to low end, I think not. Maybe cheap, but who knows?

 

I think the Wii showed that you can have a low end console and be successful. The problem is that you need a hook to get the general population to get involved with it, rather than just releasing a standard console.

 

There's also the issue of how fickle that market it. They moved one from things like the DS and Wii to playing on iPads and smartphones quite quickly. Iwata has even stated in the past that you can't rely on these type of people to sustain your company.

 

I'm no business man, nor do I pretend to be, but I would think it would be better to get the people who can be relied on ( gamers ) to buy your console and then once you have a solid foundation, go after the expanded market.

[Goron_3]

Yeah, and the GBA carried Nintendo for a good portion of the GCN's life.

 

That wasn't because the system was sold at a small loss, it was because of all the other problems the GC had. It was dead before it even launched in the west unfortunately.

[Sheikah]

I think the Wii showed that you can have a low end console and be successful. The problem is that you need a hook to get the general population to get involved with it, rather than just releasing a standard console.

 

There's also the issue of how fickle that market it. They moved one from things like the DS and Wii to playing on iPads and smartphones quite quickly. Iwata has even stated in the past that you can't rely on these type of people to sustain your company.

 

I'm no business man, nor do I pretend to be, but I would think it would be better to get the people who can be relied on ( gamers ) to buy your console and then once you have a solid foundation, go after the expanded market.

 

Yeah sorry, I kinda meant to address that. I wasn't sure whether they would be successful given they needed (as liger will say) lightning in a bottle to do what they did with the Wii again. For the sake of likeliness I'm going to say they won't do it again, so that's why I'm saying I'm not sure a low end home console will sell (but maybe it will).

[Serebii]

That wasn't because the system was sold at a small loss, it was because of all the other problems the GC had. It was dead before it even launched in the west unfortunately.

Déjà vu

[dazzybee]

It is ONE YEAR old, ONE YEAR!! Mario Kart is coming soon, they'll constantly reduce the price as and when they can. It really wouldn't surprise me to see a bargain game padless version at E3 (or sooner).

 

Talk about shooting your load when everyone panics in absolute style at one year of bad sales after a 100 years of amazing business. Also one of the richest companies in the world... They should absolute bottle it and go third party at the first sign of trouble?!?! Okay...

 

I think the whole concept of them going 3rd party is an absolute joke, but the "idea" kept destroying other threads so i thought I'd set this up. But the arguments for it I find hilarious!! In truth. Harsh maybe, but I do. The amount of eye rolling I do reading this thread...

 

But it's fun I guess, the more fantasy stuff appeals to me more though.

 

Also, I don't know how relevant it is, with Wii U being out a year longer, but the Wii U has sold more than the PS4 and Xbox One How long can that last? Mario Kart coming out soon... If Nintendo do come down in price and really nail some software this year what's to say they can't still keep up in sales?!

[Goron_3]

Déjà vu

 

Pretty much the same mistakes tbh but also some other bad choices. No 3rd party dev kits until a few months from launch, no dvd player, the lunch box shape with a handle...oh man

 

The best part is the interview with Yamauchi where he blamed RARE for not providing launch games to give the console more appeal.

 

That said, I love the GC and I always will. My fav Nintendo console

[dazzybee]

I think the Wii showed that you can have a low end console and be successful. The problem is that you need a hook to get the general population to get involved with it, rather than just releasing a standard console.

 

There's also the issue of how fickle that market it. They moved one from things like the DS and Wii to playing on iPads and smartphones quite quickly. Iwata has even stated in the past that you can't rely on these type of people to sustain your company.

 

I'm no business man, nor do I pretend to be, but I would think it would be better to get the people who can be relied on ( gamers ) to buy your console and then once you have a solid foundation, go after the expanded market.

 

I think it can work both ways, get the amazing success like they did with the Wii then get the core gamer. But Nintendo never did that... they just did the casual thing, then kill it dead for 2 years...

 

But yeah, they HAVE pretty much gone. Predictably. Iwata has said it (I know he says a lot) but they said it was the year of the gamer, plus only an idiot would have to see they won't get the same casual numbers again so they have to give the gamers what they want.

 

Though saying that. When Mario Kart comes out, if they can get the console to the Wii's price, or like @Retro_Link said £199 with Mario Kart, I think a lot of casuals will bite at that; especially if they advertise the casual stuff better - Wii Sports, Fit, Party, Nintendoland (though they seem to have killed that off a bit)... there's still a hell of a lot Nintendo could do!!

[Hero-of-Time]

Yeah sorry, I kinda meant to address that. I wasn't sure whether they would be successful given they needed (as liger will say) lightning in a bottle to do what they did with the Wii again. For the sake of likeliness I'm going to say they won't do it again, so that's why I'm saying I'm not sure a low end home console will sell (but maybe it will).

 

Ah, I see.

 

Yeah, it would take something special to get that crowd back. I don't think even a price drop would be enough. They are happy playing on games that are on the F2P model and fair play to them, if that's what makes them happy, then so be it.

 

The early sales figures for the PS4 and XBOne have shown that a lot of gamers do want better graphics, powerful hardware etc. and IF these continue then it sends out a message that this is what the market wants now.

 

If Nintendo can't figure out another hook for the Wii U or their next console ( lets stop kidding around, there will be another console from them ) then they may have to admit that they are in competition with the other 2 ( always hated when they said they weren't, of course you were! ), bite the bullet and enter the hardware arms race, for better or worse.

 

How long can that last? Mario Kart coming out soon... If Nintendo do come down in price and really nail some software this year what's to say they can't still keep up in sales?!

 

A lot of people are saying that Mario Kart and Smash Bros. will be the start of something and "save" the console. The thing is, neither of these franchises helped the Cube get back in the fight with the competition. I personally can't wait for both of these titles.

 

Hell, seeing Megaman in Smash was my gaming moment last year but I think it's going to take a number of things to get the Wii U back on track, not one game.

 

A price cut may help, but then surely that will be eating more and more into profits. I agree though that if they do cut the price though they need to make sure they have a solid stream of software to keep momentum going, otherwise you will just see spikes before it slumps back to the usual standards.

[liger05]

What's more, Iwata is getting a lot of stick for not instantly changing tack, but after successful 5 home consoles (all of which made a profit on hardware) you don't simple change your entire business plan based on one failure.

 

Since Iwata has been CEO there has not been 5 successful home consoles. The Gamecube was a commercial failure, the Wii was a huge success and the Wii U has been nothing short of a disaster.

 

If anything is to be learned from the Wii U's sales it is that Nintendo needs to ensure their hardware is low cost, profitable and marketed better.

 

The two (totally contradictory ideas) put forward by people who don't really like Nintendo are both flawed for different reasons:

 

1) If Nintendo had produced a powerhouse console they would have probably taken an even greater loss or had to sell it at a larger price. There is no guarantee it would have sold better. Hence it would not have been a sound business decision.

 

I am still waiting for some evidence which proves that if Nintendo would of released a next gen console (and no I don’t just mean graphics) it would have been a failure. That is nothing but speculation.

 

We do not know how much it would of cost to build a console which was a step up from the 360/PS3 yet still in the same ballpark as the PS4/XB1? It may have been possible to get this done at a cheaper manufacturing cost than the Wii U? We don’t really know but what we do know is the cost to manufacture the Wii U was high and for what Nintendo got for that was a weak console with a gamepad.

 

 

2) If Nintendo went third party, they would lose what has historically been their largest revenue stream - they make more from hardware than they do software.

 

 

This is true. However one thing I would like to point out is I don’t think Nintendo can simply release a console like they did historically where they make a healthy profit from each console sold from day 1 yet the console is still in the same

 

Let’s theoretically say they wanted to release a console which made a profit selling at £200 - £250. This means it’s likely they are releasing a product which is way behind the competition and they are basically hoping to hit a home run with some sort of gimmick where the casual will bite.

 

I think the idea that Iwata and co went with where they seemed to think graphic fidelity does not matter and the consumer can no longer tell the difference is majorly flawed. People can tell the difference as well as expect certain services when they buy a console. Nintendo need to start looking at why the core gamer ignores there hardware and how they can attract those people. That means no weak hardware and no gimmick controllers.

 

The sales 360/PS3/XB1/PS4 all tell me people are quite happy to play video games with a standard controller. Why deviate from that?

[Rummy]

To the bitter end, le sigh. Btw @Jonnas, I came across this so be careful what you wish for :p

 

Anyhow it seems we aren't the only ones with these thoughts on our minds, just seen a Kotaku piece that's got a lot similar to this thread! http://kotaku.com/my-dream-nintendo-doesnt-make-consoles-1505332491

 

One point it mentions is one touched on earlier - a handheld that can easily/quickly connect to a TV. Tbh with mobile phones becoming better and better, like tiny PCs in our pockets, this is something I've wanted to see happen in the future for a while. How often is your friend busting out their phone to show you a youtube video or something funny on tinternets? Usually first asking if you've a laptop to hand, failing that, then everyone either gathering round craning their necks to see the phone or passing ti round etc. I think hardware isn't quite there yet, though, and not sure how possible it'll be due to maybe physical size constrictions? Would like to see it though, and tbh if that's what happened with the next handheld I doubt I'd see myself purchasing a home console unless it had something exceedingly compelling to draw me into it.

[Jonnas]

You're also forgetting we got Tales of Etetnia, which was the first release of Destiny 2 over here.

 

In some ways I'm not sure what is worse, since we now had something like 4-5 games in the series released over here this/last generation (both handhelds and consoles, including rereleaes). And with more to come (2 more for PS3). I personally think they make sequels too frequently, but I guess it's a good thing people have the choice to play them if they want.

 

Wait, we got Eternia? Was it the PS1 version (the one with the wrong name)? Because that's hilarious, if true.

 

The constant re-releases in the series are a good thing for us, at least. I also agree that the games are very "samey", unfortunately. Even Final Fantasy shakes things up with each entry.

 

Pretty much the same mistakes tbh but also some other bad choices. No 3rd party dev kits until a few months from launch, no dvd player, the lunch box shape with a handle...oh man

 

The best part is the interview with Yamauchi where he blamed RARE for not providing launch games to give the console more appeal.

 

That said, I love the GC and I always will. My fav Nintendo console

 

What was wrong with the lunchbox handle? I liked it. And surely that couldn't have affected sales that much.

 

Also, was Yamauchi the Nintendo representative that was unpleasant and stubborn with 3rd parties? Because that statement is just sad (especially since GC's launch was pretty strong on the Nintendo line-up)

 

A lot of people are saying that Mario Kart and Smash Bros. will be the start of something and "save" the console. The thing is, neither of these franchises helped the Cube get back in the fight with the competition. I personally can't wait for both of these titles.

 

To be fair, Smash Bros wasn't a system seller before Melee (it was Melee that got the series popular over the years), and even if it was, that's a launch title we're talking about, it couldn't "save" anything.

 

Also, Mario Kart then and Mario Kart now (post-Wii&DS era) are two different things. Mario Kart is a better selling (and better known) series now than it was before.

[Hero-of-Time]

Also, Mario Kart then and Mario Kart now (post-Wii&DS era) are two different things. Mario Kart is a better selling (and better known) series now than it was before.

 

True, but are the expanded audience, the ones that actually boosted the Mario Kart numbers to crazy amounts, going to buy a new console just to play the new version? Time will tell.

[Sheikah]

Wait, we got Eternia? Was it the PS1 version (the one with the wrong name)? Because that's hilarious, if true.

Yeah they released it on PSP and I had it. It wasn't bad, I remember it having nice predrawn backgrounds similar to the PS1 FF era. The combat wasn't anything special though.

[Jonnas]

I am still waiting for some evidence which proves that if Nintendo would of released a next gen console (and no I don’t just mean graphics) it would have been a failure. That is nothing but speculation.

 

Well, duh The arguments that a Nintendo "next gen" would be successful are also speculative. It's a hypothetical situation.

 

Either way, there are solid arguments supporting this claim: Nintendo usually doesn't make power a priority in their marketing or company image (even when it makes sense, like with the Gamecube), so spending more on it if you aren't making it the focus might not be wise.

 

I think the idea that Iwata and co went with where they seemed to think graphic fidelity does not matter and the consumer can no longer tell the difference is majorly flawed. People can tell the difference as well as expect certain services when they buy a console. Nintendo need to start looking at why the core gamer ignores there hardware and how they can attract those people. That means no weak hardware and no gimmick controllers.

 

The average consumer really can't tell the difference by himself: it's good marketing that makes it a selling point, really.

 

To the bitter end, le sigh. Btw @Jonnas, I came across this so be careful what you wish for :p

 

 

Yeah they released it on PSP and I had it. It wasn't bad, I remember it having nice predrawn backgrounds similar to the PS1 FF era. The combat wasn't anything special though.

 

Ah, it's the PSP version you were talking about (I also played that one. I think that Uno-like card game was the best thing about it )

[liger05]

I think the Wii showed that you can have a low end console and be successful. The problem is that you need a hook to get the general population to get involved with it, rather than just releasing a standard console.

 

There's also the issue of how fickle that market it. They moved one from things like the DS and Wii to playing on iPads and smartphones quite quickly. Iwata has even stated in the past that you can't rely on these type of people to sustain your company.

 

I'm no business man, nor do I pretend to be, but I would think it would be better to get the people who can be relied on ( gamers ) to buy your console and then once you have a solid foundation, go after the expanded market.

 

This was from 2009 at the height of the Wii success

 

http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/696463/sony-ceo-kaz-hirai-says-core-gamers-should-be-served-before-the-mainstream/

 

With the success of the Nintendo Wii, numerous gaming-industry pundits have focused on what console companies are doing to garner the mainstream audience. In a sense, it's understandable; out of the gate, the Wii has reached a broad audience in a way that (arguably) no console ever has.

 

While the shortsighted reaction would be to mimic the Wii in every way possible and as soon as possible, Sony believes in a more gradual approach -- an approach that has worked for the company twice before. It will go after the mainstream audience with products like Buzz, SingStar, and its unnamed motion controller. However, Sony feels that it's important to start with the core audience and build out. In a recent interview with The Guardian, Sony Computer Entertainment CEO Kaz Hirai said:

 

"We have always started with the core audience and then expanded. A console always needs a solid core of games that appeal to gamers. Look at God of War. We launched that in the seventh year of the Playstation 2 and a lot of people wondered why we did. It's because we always wanted to keep the support of the core gaming audience.

 

That's not to say we're not doing anything to expand the demographics. Singstar and Buzz are obvious examples. But we need to do this in a controlled way. If you go mainstream too quickly and don't support the core gaming audience then you lack the pillar to support your platform. Without this pillar you end up with a fickle audience that might be big but will probably move on."

 

A lot of what Hirai is saying makes complete sense, but this generation is quite different from the previous two and the market has changed considerably. The most obvious point is that the PlayStation 3 does not enjoy the same market position as the PlayStation and PlayStation 2. With that in mind, can Sony afford to use the same approach it did in the past? Or does it need to alter its gameplan drastically in order to catch up to Microsoft? (Let's be honest -- neither company is going to catch up to Nintendo.)

 

Hirai's words also made me think about Nintendo's longterm future. Numerous readers of TheFeed would say, to use Hirai's words, that Nintendo lacks the pillar to support its core-gaming audience. While it might not matter this generation, some have argued that the Wii has generated so much ill will with enthusiast gamers and it will bite Nintendo come next generation. Like Kaz said, it's possible that these gamers will "move on".

 

It's still early in the console game so it will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Microsoft and Sony still have numerous opportunities to succeed. While Nintendo's lead is substantial, it still has a lot of work to do in order to avoid a sharp sales drop off. Even though a lot of enthusiast gamers have turned their backs on Nintendo, the company has the ability -- much more so than the others -- to win back hearts with its classic franchises.

 

So look into your crystal balls and read your tarot cards. Do you think the approach Hirai spoke about will work? Or is this generation a completely different ballgame? How about Nintendo? Did it "go mainstream too quickly"? Will it haunt the company in the future? Share your thoughts!

 

Well, duh The arguments that a Nintendo "next gen" would be successful are also speculative. It's a hypothetical situation.

 

Either way, there are solid arguments supporting this claim: Nintendo usually doesn't make power a priority in their marketing or company image (even when it makes sense, like with the Gamecube), so spending more on it if you aren't making it the focus might not be wise.

 

I’m not saying there are guarantees it would be a success however the constant argument I seem to find to justify how Nintendo are going about things is ‘they can’t produce a powerful console’ yet I fail to see the reasons why not?

 

The average consumer really can't tell the difference by himself: it's good marketing that makes it a selling point, really.

 

So the average person cannot walk into a gamestore see KZ running on the PS4 and not be able to notice if it looks any better than a game on their PS3? That’s a myth.

Edited January 21, 2014 by liger05

[dazzybee]

A lot of people are saying that Mario Kart and Smash Bros. will be the start of something and "save" the console. The thing is, neither of these franchises helped the Cube get back in the fight with the competition. I personally can't wait for both of these titles.

 

Hell, seeing Megaman in Smash was my gaming moment last year but I think it's going to take a number of things to get the Wii U back on track, not one game.

 

A price cut may help, but then surely that will be eating more and more into profits. I agree though that if they do cut the price though they need to make sure they have a solid stream of software to keep momentum going, otherwise you will just see spikes before it slumps back to the usual standards.

 

Mario Kart will sell consoles. If Mario Kart was out this christmas it would have done so so much better for the wii U. Smash I wouldn't be so confident about, but I guess it is a combination of everything. Nntendo need to show themselves as being a console for gamers - I think Mario Kart, Smah, Bayonetta 2 and X will help with that. Throw a few more in and it'll start to look much better very quickly. Reduce the price, loads more eshop games (this year is promising to be great on that front) improve the VC and online services and all of a sudden it looks a great little console again. I don't think it needs much.

[Hero-of-Time]

Mario Kart will sell consoles. If Mario Kart was out this christmas it would have done so so much better for the wii U. Smash I wouldn't be so confident about, but I guess it is a combination of everything. Nntendo need to show themselves as being a console for gamers - I think Mario Kart, Smah, Bayonetta 2 and X will help with that. Throw a few more in and it'll start to look much better very quickly. Reduce the price, loads more eshop games (this year is promising to be great on that front) improve the VC and online services and all of a sudden it looks a great little console again. I don't think it needs much.

 

For me, it's already a great little console but if they improved the VC and online then it would be even better.

[dazzybee]

For me, it's already a great little console but if they improved the VC and online then it would be even better.

 

Haha, well yes, me too, I love it actually. But I mean getting more people thinking it's a great machine. There's (clearly) too much to complain about, if they sort online, have a great digital library (retro and new) and start releasing a steady release of games, what is there to complain about?

[Agent Gibbs]

I really think thats the answer they need to semi abandon the plan for WiiU!

It needs a rebrand, price cut and relaunch....and they need to cut its shelf life, a new more powerful nintendo console is required and soon! like 2015 soon!