Aonuma right for Zelda?

[Sheikah]

Man, this whole situation is ridiculous. I'm not sure what more can be said.

 

The notion that a person cannot think the series considerably declined in quality because a bunch of arbitrary review scores say the quality level 'stayed the same'.

 

Both curiously odd and very very sad at the same time.

[Jamba]

Stop lying:

 

Do you think you could maybe discuss things rather than throw insults? Don't you think that people are going to (as they have in this thread) ignore the point that you are trying to make if your front your point with personal attacks?

 

No one is going to back up your argument in here if you talking to others like this. And it's not just you in this thread but you're definitely the worst offender.

[Zechs Merquise]

Do you think you could maybe discuss things rather than throw insults? Don't you think that people are going to (as they have in this thread) ignore the point that you are trying to make if your front your point with personal attacks?

 

No one is going to back up your argument in here if you talking to others like this. And it's not just you in this thread but you're definitely the worst offender.

 

Someone has said that Metacritic showed the opposite of what I had said. I then proved that Metacritic had showed exactly what I said.

 

That there hasn't been an 'substantial' decline in the quality of Zelda post-Majora's Mask.

 

I am totally fine with the fact that people might rank the Zelda series in a different way to what I would rank it.

 

But sweeping statements that infer that there is some universal consensus on an issue are just ridiculous. Also, a substantial decline is pure hyperbole. A substantial decline in quality is how you would describe the Sonic games post-Megadrive.

 

But stating a series is in substantial decline when it's critical and commercial performance has remained strong (especially critically) seems to me to be trying to spark an argument.

 

I certainly think there's room for the Zelda series to grow and potential tread new ground and move in a fresh direction. But to claim it's in substantial decline, on a Nintendo forum, seems to be rather trollish!

[Jamba]

tldr

 

Don't care what your argument is, the tone is inappropriate. I'm the second person to tell you that. Read, understand and please chill the fuck out.

 

If someone doesn't agree with your argument then you need to find a better way of discussing it. Telling them that they're an idiot is not the right way.

[Sheikah]

 

That there hasn't been an 'substantial' decline in the quality of Zelda post-Majora's Mask.

 

I agree with others here; calling me an idiot is just very bad form and is counter to what you're trying to achieve.

 

But on top of this, the above quote is another thing that generally makes discussions with you difficult. You tend think that other people's opinions on things can categorically be proven wrong with statistics or sources (which they can't). Just live and let live.

[Fused King]

'T is a difficult thing, discussing subjective matters.

 

Me and my girlfriend sometimes have this discussion about movies.

 

I say that there is absolutely no standard whatsoever when it comes to the so-called 'quality' of a movie, and that review scores do not matter to me whatsoever.

Yeah, my favourite Pirates of the Carribean was the 3rd one and I enjoy the fact that the franchise is continuing...

Yeah, I don't think Jar Jar Binks was all that bad...

Yeah, I cried when Rocky read his poem to Adrian when she was in a coma....

 

She says there is a standard of quality by which we can tell how 'good' or how 'bad' a movie is.

 

I bet there are people out there who enjoy a pixelymess of a game or get emotional by the deeper meanings in The Human Centipede, and I most definitely agree with Sheikah that one person's opinion shouldn't be held above another one's when it comes to discussing creations.

 

All we can do is lay our opinions out in the open and ask questions.

 

I'll start:

@Blade, Did you really love every minute of Skyward Sword. To me, the visual style, atmosphere, characters and combat system were the highlights of the game, but I felt it lacking in the freedom/exploring department. The Sidequests were also not that memorable to me.

Is it your favourite Zelda game? Did you like Fi?

[Wii]

Using critic scores, are you having a laugh? Since when do they count for anything? GTAIV is one of the highest ranking games of all time - do people think it's the best game of all time? Fuck no. And I sincerely doubt most people here would agree all the latest Zeldas top MM.

 

Skyward Sword certainly doesn't. Majora's Mask is right up there as one of my favourite Zelda titles. I'd go for something in that vein again. Different, dark and querky.

[Blade]

@Fused King Yeah I did really enjoy every bit of Skyward Sword. I agree with what you thought the highlights of the game were. I disagree to some extent re lack of exploration. Now, traditionally exploration means wide open areas with lots of areas to go and discover. I think WW does this very well. I just think SS gives exploration perhaps a new way of meaning. In this game you explore an area many times because it keeps changing, with new paths opening up and fresh puzzles getting in your way. It was something different, and I enjoyed it.

 

No its not my favourite Zelda game that honour goes to OoT. Probably because it was my first Zelda.

 

All the games since then have been great! I dont think there has been a decline. They are just unique in their own right yet all have the magical Zelda feel to them.

 

No, Fi was just too high maintenance and required too much attention. Made Navi look tolerable!

[Kav]

My favourite 3D Zelda games probably go like this...

 

OOT - perfection

SS - almost perfect, Fi was annoying

TP - great but the world didn't feel "alive"

WW - great but sailing was a huge pain in the ass

MM - great but the time limit/return back to the first day just wasn't for me

 

MM is the only 3D Zelda I haven't bothered replaying.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Kav

[Jamba]

@Fused King Yeah I did really enjoy every bit of Skyward Sword. I agree with what you thought the highlights of the game were. I disagree to some extent re lack of exploration. Now, traditionally exploration means wide open areas with lots of areas to go and discover. I think WW does this very well. I just think SS gives exploration perhaps a new way of meaning. In this game you explore an area many times because it keeps changing, with new paths opening up and fresh puzzles getting in your way. It was something different, and I enjoyed it.

 

No its not my favourite Zelda game that honour goes to OoT. Probably because it was my first Zelda.

 

All the games since then have been great! I dont think there has been a decline. They are just unique in their own right yet all have the magical Zelda feel to them.

 

No, Fi was just too high maintenance and required too much attention. Made Navi look tolerable!

 

Almost word-for-word my feelings on things. I'm a SS fan for the same reasons and I think what you have explained about exploration goes a way to suggesting why I don't like TP very much. I think what you get out of the exploration has to be meaningful as well, such as some great views of a beautifully designed world ala World of Warcraft or keeping ahead of the curve game-wise ala Metroid. Big empty spaces =/= large worlds.

 

One thing I'd add, that not a lot of people mention about SS is the relationship between Link and Zelda. For the first time in a while I've felt some genuine emotion for those characters. Zelda was a strong character as well rather than a classic helpless damsel and Link wanted to help/save her because he cared about her not because she was useless like she is in some of the early games. Link saves the world to help share her burden.

[Serebii]

Aonuma is changing things because people are complaining about him not changing things.

He was not changing things because people were complaining about him changing things.

 

Seriously. This is ridiculous.

 

Each Zelda game has been top quality. Absolute top quality. He is the right man for Zelda.

[Grazza]

It's complicated because they need to go with original ideas when they're sure they're good (like Wind Waker), but I also think they need to stop reinventing the wheel for the sake of it (Skyward Sword).

 

Basically, Aonuma is a great director. I don't follow it closely, but I believe he directed Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, and had more of a producer's role with Skyward Sword? Aonuma is still the right man for the job, I'd say. OK, I'd like to play another Zelda as magical as Wind Waker, but even another one as good as Twilight Princess would be very welcome, in my eyes. Haven't really played many games as memorable as that since it was released.

[Mr_Master_X2]

They do appear to be getting easier. Hand-holding all he way through the game, bosses that drop easier than some normal enemies... It's sad really. If you time travelled someone from the first 4 games to now, they'd be marvelled by the graphics, but the difficulty? They'd wonder what went wrong. The same thing's happened to Pokemon. They knew vets wanted a challenge (challenge mode in BW, though still easy) yet made XY EVEN easier. The gyms are a joke. When you get to the eight gym and they still only have 3 mon, all lower than you...why even bother? Zelda bosses are the same. The games are fun, very enjoyable, but c'mon, challenge doesn't have to be removed to cater to the lowest skilled player, does it? You might say "well it's no fun for newcomers if it's too hard", but it's not as much fun for veterans who've stuck with you game after game to be given games with ALL challenge removed when they're seeking an increase in challenge to cater to their increased skills from playing the previous games.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Mr_Master_X2

[Zechs Merquise]

They do appear to be getting easier. Hand-holding all he way through the game, bosses that drop easier than some normal enemies... It's sad really. If you time travelled someone from the first 4 games to now, they'd be marvelled by the graphics, but the difficulty? They'd wonder what went wrong. The same thing's happened to Pokemon. They knew vets wanted a challenge (challenge mode in BW, though still easy) yet made XY EVEN easier. The gyms are a joke. When you get to the eight gym and they still only have 3 mon, all lower than you...why even bother? Zelda bosses are the same. The games are fun, very enjoyable, but c'mon, challenge doesn't have to be removed to cater to the lowest skilled player, does it? You might say "well it's no fun for newcomers if it's too hard", but it's not as much fun for veterans who've stuck with you game after game to be given games with ALL challenge removed when they're seeking an increase in challenge to cater to their increased skills from playing the previous games.

 

Hand holding is the norm across the industry. Remember when you first played Zelda on the NES, it was a genuine adventure. You could go where you wanted, do what you wanted and even do the dungeons out of the order they were intended. Both exploration and trial and error were rewarded with secret caves to explore and treasure.

 

That type of game play has sadly died a death due to the mass market nature of the industry. I guarantee that if a game was presented like that today most gamers would be totally lost and would give up in less than an hour and thoroughly hate the experience.

 

The standard model back in the day was punishment for death. If you died you would be whisked back to the beginning of a level or an area minus your items and it was time to start again. Games would reward skill and punish ineptitude. However everything has been dumbed down. Most games don't even punish dying any more, you simply restart at the last check point as if nothing happened.

[Rummy]

What I find stranger is that hand holding exists now rather than then - now you've the wealth of information available that is the internet - if you get stuck you can easily get help in a heartbeat! Most never had that option in the 80s and early 90s!

 

As for the original question - indeed I haven't enjoyed 'recent' console Zeldas as much as others, but Aonuma brought us the greatness that was MM, and WW(though not as top as many others for me, it is a cracker) and right now I'm REALLY looking forward to ALBW. I think once we see that, I'll be able to actually attempt to answer the question posed by this thread.

 

 

(also just wanted to agree with @Jamba's sentiments about SS's story and the link/zelda relationship. It was good, though I had hoped you'd have her along for a bit more of the adventure and maybe even play as her. However that was some of what makes zelda zelda - the characterisation. Also I agree with Jamba's sentiments regarding attitudes in the thread - don't resort to name calling, it's rude and disrespectful, and I'd like to hope we're better than that)