Ronnie Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 You've named...5/6 games there. Where's my...Journey, FeZ, Terraria, Geometry Wars, PixelJunk Eden, Metal Gear or GTA to name a few but 7? The fact that you have to name 5 indie games out of 7 examples, says it all. Anyway this is going in circles, no one is going to agree on anything in here, apart from Nintendo releases nothing but platformers and are bad, the competition releases the most diverse range of big titles known to man and are good. The most popular games out there, FIFA, COD and AC releasing every single year is fine, because they're not from Nintendo. I make an inocuous comment about how Nintendo have a cupboard full of famous IP and that that stands them in good stead, and it leads to open bashing season, as usual whenever an ounce of positivity is injected into this toxic thread.
Eddage Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 So you're saying having world recognised IP is of no value whatsoever? Come on, it opens up a huge market. It doesn't help the Wii U, which is what we're talking about.
Happenstance Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Listing Indie games means nothing, they are still playable games on a system. There are still a load of other games Rummy could have listed but it wouldnt make any difference. What would make them more worthy of listing? Also, people complain about annualised franchises all the time. Assassins Creed being a big example of that.
Rummy Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 The fact that you have to name 5 indie games out of 7 examples, says it all. Anyway this is going in circles, no one is going to agree on anything in here, apart from Nintendo releases nothing but platformers and are bad, the competition releases the most diverse range of big titles known to man and are good. The most popular games out there, FIFA, COD and AC releasing every single year is fine, because they're not from Nintendo. I make an inocuous comment about how Nintendo have a cupboard full of famous IP and that that stands them in good stead, and it leads to open bashing season, as usual whenever an ounce of positivity is injected into this toxic thread. Great way to dismiss both my points and the argument because you're getting out of your depth. I've said 2-3 times I'm NOT talking about Fifa, COD etc(and alluded to the issue of sequel-itis) but you just keep coming back to it as the mainstay of your point? Also...why don't/shouldn't indies count? We're talking about the Wii U as a console right? Why are they discounted? Shall we then dismiss any 3rd parties? It isn't 'open bashing season' - the topic of the conversation moved to diversity on Wii U and people are engaging in it - that is how a discussion goes. I don't know how many times to tell you - if you don't like this place and the way it is, then stop coming here. I don't know why your go-to seems to be 'OMG N-EUROPE SUCKS LET ME TELL ALL OF N-EUROPE THIS' - it just isn't productive at all.
Ronnie Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I love indies, they provide much needed variety on the other consoles that the AAA's certainly don't provide. My point was if we're including indies I could have listed all the eshop games on the Wii U to pad out the diversity. Throw those into the mix and the Wii U has even more variety, but I suspect people don't judge the Wii U on those games.
nekunando Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I'm growing tired of the relentless, and mostly pointless, arguing We all like different games, just as we all enjoy different music, films, TV etc. Some will be happy with the games on Wii U, others won't and no amount of justification one way or the other is suddenly going to force someone to enjoy a game or franchise! Go play the games you enjoy and stop moaning
Happenstance Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I'm growing tired of the relentless, and mostly pointless, arguing We all like different games, just as we all enjoy different music, films, TV etc. Some will be happy with the games on Wii U, others won't and no amount of justification one way or the other is suddenly going to force someone to enjoy a game or franchise! Go play the games you enjoy and stop moaning Its not pointless! I will not stop until people realise that Nintendo games are for children and simple folk!
Rummy Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) I love indies, they provide much needed variety on the other consoles that the AAA's certainly don't provide. My point was if we're including indies I could have listed all the eshop games on the Wii U to pad out the diversity. Throw those into the mix and the Wii U has even more variety, but I suspect people don't judge the Wii U on those games. And my point is I could probably still outlist you on the competition. The reason I mentioned most of the games I did was for their uniqueness and memorability - stand out titles in my mind that offered me what I felt Nintendo should or used to. The problem, as mentioned above, is the fact these offerings are available to play on the competition and not the Wii U - thus offering more diversity. And if we want to stay on your point that you were just pointing out all the great IP Nintendo have then we should at least come back to kav's original point that you half dismissed and ignored...what are they doing with all of it! Where's the Metroid, F-Zeros, Waveraces, Eternal Darknesses, Excitevehicles? Whilst I'm not a fan of trotting out and rehashing old IP without innovation - I'd definitely be keen to see another Eternal Darkness or Excitetruck/bots title. I'd also enjoy Metroid if it does enough different. Nintendo's got great IP but they aren't using all of it, and some of it not to it's best(imo). Go play the games you enjoy and stop moaning I will if you're happy to pay for my dentistry, speed awareness course and kitchen...until then it's a little difficult for me to get on anything other than my Wii U! On the plus side of which - Splatoon is keeping me pretty busy/entertained :p Edited July 30, 2015 by Rummy
Goafer Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Splatoon: team-based online shooterSmash Bros: Beat-em-up/brawler Mario Kart 8: Racing game Mario 3D World: 3D Platformer Mario U, DK, Yoshi: 2D Platformer Pikmin 3: RTS Hyrule Warriors: Hack and Slash NintendoLand: Mini game collection Wonderful 101: Strategy/Action Bayonetta 2: Action Captain Toad: Puzzler Mario Party 10: Party game Super Mario Maker: Level creator Starfox Zero: Arcade shoot-em-up Xenoblade Chronicles X: RPG Mario Tennis Ultra Smash: Sports Project Zero: Horror Zelda U: Action/Adventure All bar 2 of them feature a "cute" aesthetic. Hardly diverse if you want varying art styles. I'd also argue that very few feature a strong storyline beyond the usual "save the princess by collecting X" I get that Nintendo are consistent and theres nothing wrong with having a style. It just becomes problematic when they're pretty much the only developer supporting the console. It's an impossible task for Nintendo to single handedly offer the sort of variety a console needs. IMO of course.
Ronnie Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 All bar 2 of them feature a "cute" aesthetic. Hardly diverse if you want varying art styles. I'd also argue that very few feature a strong storyline beyond the usual "save the princess by collecting X" I get that Nintendo are consistent and theres nothing wrong with having a style. It just becomes problematic when they're pretty much the only developer supporting the console. It's an impossible task for Nintendo to single handedly offer the sort of variety a console needs. IMO of course. And I think that because they're single-handedly supporting the console they're doing a very admirable job of offering genre diversity.
Serebii Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) All bar 2 of them feature a "cute" aesthetic. Hardly diverse if you want varying art styles. I'd also argue that very few feature a strong storyline beyond the usual "save the princess by collecting X" I get that Nintendo are consistent and theres nothing wrong with having a style. It just becomes problematic when they're pretty much the only developer supporting the console. It's an impossible task for Nintendo to single handedly offer the sort of variety a console needs. IMO of course. But in gameplay terms, it is quite diverse. Just because aesthetics are family friendly doesn't mean it's not. Gameplay is the most important thing when it comes to a video game, and it saddens me that in this industry, it is coming to be a secondary thing. Didn't a developer recently say that gameplay comes second to them now? We could argue the same of aesthetics for other formats since they tend to go with realism for the majority, but the games in that list would be classed by you as diverse, would they not? Edited July 30, 2015 by Serebii
Kav Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) And I think that because they're single-handedly supporting the console they're doing a very admirable job of offering genre diversity. In creating Splatoon and Cpt Toad they are definitely giving some diversity... but I'd not say admirable, only because they could offer up even more diversity from within their own catalogue of IP (the numerate games I'd listed earlier). As opposed to releasing so many platformers and party games they could have released a couple off that list. That's my gripe. Also, the fact they messed up and lost 3rd Party support is Nintendo's own fault, so they have to accept any complaints regarding the console as a whole not having enough diversity. But in gameplay terms, it is quite diverse. Just because aesthetics are family friendly doesn't mean it's not. Gameplay is the most important thing when it comes to a video game, and it saddens me that in this industry, it is coming to be a secondary thing. Didn't a developer recently say that gameplay comes second to them now? We could argue the same of aesthetics for other formats since they tend to go with realism for the majority, but the games in that list would be classed by you as diverse, would they not? I agree with this point. Gameplay should come first and foremost (some may be shocked at me saying this given my stance on online features, I can elaborate via PM if you wish to ask me about this). That was why I didn't rate The Last of Us that highly... although that discussion is in The Last of Us thread. Edited July 30, 2015 by Kav Automerged Doublepost
somme Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 The fact that you have to name 5 indie games out of 7 examples, says it all. I don't understand why you insist on differentiating between indie and AAA - they're all games - the majority of which you won't find on WiiU.
Ronnie Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) But in gameplay terms, it is quite diverse. Just because aesthetics are family friendly doesn't mean it's not. Gameplay is the most important thing when it comes to a video game, and it saddens me that in this industry, it is coming to be a secondary thing. Didn't a developer recently say that gameplay comes second to them now? Thank you. You get the impression the AAA competition is all about the size of their overworld, grinding for loot drops, putting as many missions on a map as possible or having the best cutscenes. Nintendo focus on gameplay and making games fun. Thank god for them and indies. I don't understand why you insist on differentiating between indie and AAA - they're all games - the majority of which you won't find on WiiU. Believe me, I love indies and you'll never hear me argue against them. My point was I didn't realise we were including them into the discussion or else I would have listed eShop games. Edited July 30, 2015 by Ronnie Automerged Doublepost
Kav Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Thank you. You get the impression the AAA competition is all about the size of their overworld, grinding for loot drops, putting as many missions on a map as possible or having the best cutscenes. Nintendo focus on gameplay and making games fun. Thank god for them and indies. You've got the wrong impression then Ronnie. Just go to the Other Consoles forum, that first page alone has a plethora of diversity! Look at a couple pages and it's a wider range than the WiiU library by far! Even ignoring indie games.
Mr-Paul Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 @kav82 is that Nintendo have a diverse range of IP that is untouched and would make the Wii U's library even better. Yes, there's a wide range of different games available, but there's so much more potential left untapped! These games not being on the console is made a lot harder by the lack of support from other developers. Yeah, you say that they aren't world famous/don't sell much, but if we look at it from a non-business perspective, reintroducing some of these franchises that are so desperately wished for on these forums would make the Wii U's library undoubtedly stronger.
Goafer Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Gameplay is the most important thing when it comes to a video game, and it saddens me that in this industry, it is coming to be a secondary thing. To you it may be, but its not for everyone. To me, a great story that I can get immersed in is top priority, which is why I just can't get into Nintendo games. The stories just seem shallow or barely existent. I've been watching some play throughs or Mario games recently and as far as I can tell, the story is always collect stars to save the princess.
Serebii Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 To you it may be, but its not for everyone. To me, a great story that I can get immersed in is top priority, which is why I just can't get into Nintendo games. The stories just seem shallow or barely existent. I've been watching some play throughs or Mario games recently and as far as I can tell, the story is always collect stars to save the princess. But that's the thing for me, and your viewpoint, while I respect it, just makes no sense to me. If I want to be engrossed by a story, I'll watch a movie or a book. Gaming provides a totally different experience in that it's interactive and that's the focus of it. For story, yeah it can be great but it really irked me last gen when I was playing through games on my 360 & PS3 that whenever a game is story focused, the actual story bits are almost always all in cutscenes with a QTE, or it'd be cutscene, walk for 5 seconds, cutscene etc. If I'm playing a game, I want the whole thing to be interactive or why bother? Just make a movie. Video games should always be about gameplay first. Can they have a story? Hell yes they can, but not if developers are making a game story first, gameplay second. I lose all respect for developers who are trying to shift the industry that way. But that could be me being a grumpy old man.
Rummy Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 @kav82 is that Nintendo have a diverse range of IP that is untouched and would make the Wii U's library even better. Yes, there's a wide range of different games available, but there's so much more potential left untapped! These games not being on the console is made a lot harder by the lack of support from other developers. Yeah, you say that they aren't world famous/don't sell much, but if we look at it from a non-business perspective, reintroducing some of these franchises that are so desperately wished for on these forums would make the Wii U's library undoubtedly stronger. Can you even begin to imagine the things they might do with the Gamepad if they did another Eternal Darkness? I know I can't! I was expecting a lot more creative and unique gaming/gamepad uses for the Wii U that I still think I haven't felt enough of - Eternal Darkness could be a great backdrop for it!
Happenstance Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Can you even begin to imagine the things they might do with the Gamepad if they did another Eternal Darkness? I know I can't! I was expecting a lot more creative and unique gaming/gamepad uses for the Wii U that I still think I haven't felt enough of - Eternal Darkness could be a great backdrop for it! I think at this point I'd be more interested an Eternal Darkness VR game.
Kav Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 @Ronnie, you're the only one really comparing the IP/characters/genres/games with what's available elsewhere. The main point I see, especially coming from kav82 is that Nintendo have a diverse range of IP that is untouched and would make the Wii U's library even better. Yes, there's a wide range of different games available, but there's so much more potential left untapped! These games not being on the console is made a lot harder by the lack of support from other developers. Yeah, you say that they aren't world famous/don't sell much, but if we look at it from a non-business perspective, reintroducing some of these franchises that are so desperately wished for on these forums would make the Wii U's library undoubtedly stronger. Absolutely this. Also, I think sales on the WiiU would be reasonable for the given franchises. If Nintendi were to develop these games and give them a push like they did with Splatoon, it'd put them to the forefront if WiiU owners minds... and seeing how there are a great number of WiiU owners who feel there aren't enough games (this must be true given how Nintendo themselves have addressed this), more people would pick them up... the consoles diminutive library would be a boon for sales of these games.
Serebii Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I think at this point I'd be more interested an Eternal Darkness VR game. Bring back the Vitality Sensor for Eternal Darkness NX!
Fierce_LiNk Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) But that's the thing for me, and your viewpoint, while I respect it, just makes no sense to me. If I want to be engrossed by a story, I'll watch a movie or a book. Gaming provides a totally different experience in that it's interactive and that's the focus of it. For story, yeah it can be great but it really irked me last gen when I was playing through games on my 360 & PS3 that whenever a game is story focused, the actual story bits are almost always all in cutscenes with a QTE, or it'd be cutscene, walk for 5 seconds, cutscene etc. If I'm playing a game, I want the whole thing to be interactive or why bother? Just make a movie. Video games should always be about gameplay first. Can they have a story? Hell yes they can, but not if developers are making a game story first, gameplay second. I lose all respect for developers who are trying to shift the industry that way. But that could be me being a grumpy old man. Reading this bold part makes you sound like a dinosaur. Can you influence the outcome of a book by just reading it? Nope. But, you can influence a game's story by playing it. The Walking Dead games for example have you doing this. You could end up with different experiences each time of playing it. With inFAMOUS, you even choose at regular points whether to be a bad guy or a hero. This is the type of thing I'd like to see expanded on in videogames, where your actions in the game actually affect the overall world and story that is contained within it. My favourite game of all time does this and I'm excited to see where the medium takes it from this point onwards. Stories in videogames are getting better, as is the quality of the character animation, voice acting and script work and this SHOULD continue to improve because it all adds up to the overall package of a game. I hate this outdated view that "it's all about the gameplay" "I love the gameplay and that's all that matters" because...it's bullshit, quite frankly. There is so much that makes a game a special "package" that to not acknowledge it is disrespectful to the artists and writers who poured their soul into it. Eternal Darkness. One of my favourite Nintendo games of all time has some of the best script-work in a videogame for that time, as well as outstanding voice acting and sound design. The fundamental gameplay underneath is great, but you couldn't just have the gameplay by itself because...you'd end up with nothing. Story-telling is now becoming an important part of gaming for a reason, because you can evoke feelings that you can't otherwise obtain from being a reader or a viewer; you are a participant. You are Link, you are Samus, etc. One of the key reasons I have fallen out of love with Nintendo is that they are becoming piss poor at telling stories. I fell in love with the story of Ocarina of Time and we/you are kidding yourself if you're telling me that you didn't fall in love with that game for a large part because of the set pieces, graphical finesse of the game at that time and the dialogue between the characters. Nintendo are missing a huge, huge trick by "overloading" everything into the gaming department because there's a large part of extra stuff that coexists with that to make the overall "package" special. Gaming needs to continue to evolve and Nintendo with it. We need each of the separate components to improve as technology and skill improve and we need more cohesion between each of these parts. What if a crucial piece of dialogue in a Zelda game, for example, caused Link to save a character's life? What if the entire ending of a game, thus the finale of the story be altered by doing different actions within a game? Edited August 1, 2015 by Fierce_LiNk
Goafer Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 But that's the thing for me, and your viewpoint, while I respect it, just makes no sense to me. If I want to be engrossed by a story, I'll watch a movie or a book. Gaming provides a totally different experience in that it's interactive and that's the focus of it. You've kind of made my counter point for me. It's interactive and films and books aren't. In good story driven games, its you making the decisions. With books and films, you're totally at the mercy of the writers. With game stories, you can choose how to progress. You are the protagonist. That level of immersion can't be matched by films and books. A decent story in games adds weight to your actions. I want to know why I'm doing something, not just be forced to do something for no real reason.
Serebii Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) You've kind of made my counter point for me. It's interactive and films and books aren't. In good story driven games, its you making the decisions. With books and films, you're totally at the mercy of the writers. With game stories, you can choose how to progress. You are the protagonist. That level of immersion can't be matched by films and books. A decent story in games adds weight to your actions. I want to know why I'm doing something, not just be forced to do something for no real reason. You and @Fierce_LiNk are getting me wrong. I'm not saying story has no place in a game. I'm saying it should come second to gameplay. Gameplay is the most important thing in a game. More than a story. If more games worked like @Fierce_LiNk said in his first paragraph, then huzzah...that's a fantastic way of implementing story into gameplay, but it doesn't happen often. So often we're just backseat drivers in the story and when they put focus on story over gameplay, it's detrimental and unfortunately is common in the industry. Edited July 30, 2015 by Serebii
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