Ramar Posted January 5, 2014 Author Posted January 5, 2014 Sherwood had to be off his tits to play 4-4-2 at The Arsenal.
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 I'm just going to copy and paste a post from a few weeks ago. As predicted, not a lot has changed since then. I have no faith in David Moyes or this "team" of players. I said ages ago that Moyes needed to learn and he needs to learn quickly. He has learned nothing. Absolutely nothing. He doesn't know who his first choice/best defenders are, he doesn't know who to start in midfield, on the wings, or up front (except for Rooney). He doesn't know when to make substitutions, or who to bring on. He doesn't know how to break teams down at home or away. He doesn't know how to play attacking football, or how to defend a lead. He doesn't know how to motivate these players. Players that have won titles, played in Champions League finals. He knows nothing. He has learned nothing. I'd take the loss if I could at least take some sort of heart from the performances. That we would have some sort of idea about the future of this club. But, we're getting nothing in return for this. There's no sense of a dynasty being built or a tradition being followed. There's no decisive style of play. No urgency, no atmosphere. Tired of this shit already and it's only fucking December. Change the bold part to January and it'll do. Again, if the performances were somewhat decent, it wouldn't be so bad. But, defensively, we look absolutely clueless. The only two areas where I think we look sorted are in goal (De Gea, every game) and up front (Rooney in some shape or form, with either Welbeck with him or Van Persie if fit). Aside from that, everything else is shiiiit.
Blade Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Man U fans are hilarious. My facebook is full of them moaning and groaning about how bad it is. How dreadful of a season it is. How a lost is "another typical lost" This Man U fans is something you have little experience of. It's called losing. Welcome to football Man U fans. Im sure you will be up there by the end of the season. This years 3rd round has been amazing! Although commentators have said that we have genuinely played well against Villa I am not deluded. I expect to get absolutely thrashed in the next round and ordered back to the League 1 hole where we came from
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Man U fans are hilarious. My facebook is full of them moaning and groaning about how bad it is. How dreadful of a season it is. How a lost is "another typical lost" This Man U fans is something you have little experience of. It's called losing. Welcome to football Man U fans. Im sure you will be up there by the end of the season. This years 3rd round has been amazing! Although commentators have said that we have genuinely played well against Villa I am not deluded. I expect to get absolutely thrashed in the next round and ordered back to the League 1 hole where we came from You're missing the point. I said ages ago that Moyes needed to learn and he needs to learn quickly. He has learned nothing. Absolutely nothing. He doesn't know who his first choice/best defenders are, he doesn't know who to start in midfield, on the wings, or up front (except for Rooney). He doesn't know when to make substitutions, or who to bring on. He doesn't know how to break teams down at home or away. He doesn't know how to play attacking football, or how to defend a lead. He doesn't know how to motivate these players. Players that have won titles, played in Champions League finals. He knows nothing. He has learned nothing. The losses aren't necessarily alarming in themselves. You can lose games but still move forward. But, to lose in a certain way, to lose in these ways is a lot worse. The bold parts sum up what is worrying me most. Granted, a lot of fans will just look at the results and go "oh no, we lost, Moyes out," etc, which isn't right. Looking at things at face value isn't always best. But, when you look at it another way, which is that we can't win at home, we play with little to no tempo, players are being played out of position, certain players aren't even getting games, no chances are being created, then that's something else entirely.
Emerald Emblem Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 You had to have seen this coming Fierce_Link, Sir Alex Ferguson left his successor a lot of rebuilding work to do, he papered over cracks in his final season or two and didn't leave his successor the squad he could have done. Now the United fans are up in arms about it and want Moyes out. Yes, David Moyes should have splashed some cash particularly in the midfield in the Summer on a player United needed (they didn't need Fellaini) but really Ferguson could have done a better job in ensuring his successor had something to work with till he could build his own squad, United may have walked the title last season but that was all down to Ferguson and his uncanny ability to get the best out of his players, Moyes can't do this at least yet with a team that isn't his own. The Manchester United fans have to stick this out, let Moyes get to grips with this team and bring in the players that will make it "his" team and see what happens in the next season or two and if it still doesn't work out then push him out the door then. For now they have to be patient, some are forgetting it took their great former manager a year or two to start their era of dominance.
pratty Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 I think these cup shocks sometimes get blown out of proportion a bit, yeah it's a shock Utd got beat, but then you look at the team sheet and the line up is quite B-team-ish, as is usually the case for most of these upsets, the FA cup simply isn't that high a priority, West Ham certainly weren't interested. I think a defeat at home in the league to Swansea, with a full strength team out, would be a far more damaging, and far more telling defeat for Utd. On the subject of motivation I think Moyes did a good job motivating Everton, makes you wonder if the Utd players just aren't that hungry if they require different motivation to the Everton players.
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) You had to have seen this coming Fierce_Link, Sir Alex Ferguson left his successor a lot of rebuilding work to do, he papered over cracks in his final season or two and didn't leave his successor the squad he could have done. I see this point mentioned so often and I have to disagree with it. Goalkeepers De Gea Lindegaard De Gea is the obvious number one, one of the best young keepers in the league. Even Lindegaard is decent as a back up and I have faith in both. No problems here. Defence Evra Ferdinand Vidic Evans Smalling Jones Rafael Fabio Buttner Evra is consistently a top performer but does need an understudy. Buttner has actually looked fine and we've also got Fabio to go there. So, left back is fine. Ferdinand and Vidic are slow and are aging. Buuut, we have Evans, Smalling and Jones. Two of those three should be starting every week. Preferably, Evans and Jones. Right back is an issue. We have Rafael, but no cover. Midfield Nani Young Valencia Zaha Kagawa Anderson Carrick Fletcher Cleverley Januzaj Fellaini Giggs (plus the likes of Lingard on loan) Looking at these players, they should be doing a loooot better. Fletcher has done well since he's come back from illness. Kagawa is pure and simply played in the wrong position. Fellaini has looked poor since he has come. Anderson and Nani are hit and miss. On the wings though, you have the likes of Young, Nani, Valencia, Zaha, Januzaj, Giggs (and Kagawa if you insist on playing him there) to choose from. That's a good selection and good variety. The issue is in central midfield. Fergie left MORE than enough there for Moyes to choose from. The only times when this wasn't enough was against the top, top teams in Europe. There's a difference between losing to City away and losing to West Brom at home. Strikers Welbeck Hernandez Rooney Van Persie Plus the potential youth strikers, I think he left mooore than enough there. So, therefore, the only positions where I truly think we needed improving were in central midfield and right back. Two players over the summer would have sorted us out, three players would have been magical. Instead, we brought in Fellaini, who solved nothing. Nothing to do with what Ferguson left, this was a team that won the title after all. There is more than enough quality there. The manager not only acts as a tactician or a coach, but as a motivator. Some of these players don't look motivated enough or they're not showing enough quality. The buck has to stop with the current staff. Now the United fans are up in arms about it and want Moyes out. Yes, David Moyes should have splashed some cash particularly in the midfield in the Summer on a player United needed (they didn't need Fellaini) but really Ferguson could have done a better job in ensuring his successor had something to work with till he could build his own squad, United may have walked the title last season but that was all down to Ferguson and his uncanny ability to get the best out of his players, Moyes can't do this at least yet with a team that isn't his own. Actually, I don't think I've seen many fans who want Moyes out at all. They want better, absolutely, but almost every fan I know wants him to succeed. We're not a Chelsea-type of football club that changes their manager every few minutes. We don't want that. Again, I have to completely disagree with your point about Ferguson doing a better job. He left plenty. Again, the only areas that needed improving over the summer were right back and central midfield. You can't blag the title, so all this talk of walking the title is drivel. You can't be consistent over 20 odd years by blagging things, and it just shows you what a top quality manager in many ways Sir Alex was. But, he also hand picked Moyes and he advised Moyes to keep the backroom staff, which he then went and changed. Moyes' fault, not Ferguson's. Moyes and Woodward were poor in the transfer market in the summer and we are paying the price for it. We were making utterly stupid bids for Fabregas that were never going to go through, we wasted our time and dragged our feet over Alcantara. We even paid over the odds for Fellaini, which makes it perfectly clear that he was a panic buy. He was. It just reeks of poor planning on the current staff's part. Ferguson did more than enough and left us with plenty to work with. In some ways, this team isn't terribly different to last year's side or the one before that, but the results were better and the football was better. The Manchester United fans have to stick this out, let Moyes get to grips with this team and bring in the players that will make it "his" team and see what happens in the next season or two and if it still doesn't work out then push him out the door then. For now they have to be patient, some are forgetting it took their great former manager a year or two to start their era of dominance. We have to give him time, and we will as we've given him a 6 year deal. But, he's had many opportunities to make good changes and bring in who he wants or play who he wants. But, if he really believes that Kagawa's future is out on the wing and that Smalling is a competent right back, then we are in trouble. I can't remember us looking at a single right back over the summer and now we are conceding many goals from that area. United fans WANT to see him choose his own team. But, when he's dragging his feet over signings, dawdling over Fellaini and Baines and then NOT getting Baines and paying over the odds on Fellaini, you're going to create issues. Not playing the likes of Zaha and playing players like Smalling and Kagawa in the wrong positions, putting Jones in midfield instead of defence, it's asking for trouble. Trouble that HE is creating himself. We want Moyes to become a proper Manchester United manager and take responsibility for the successes and failures that he creates. Blaming the previous manager isn't an option. Edited January 5, 2014 by Fierce_LiNk
Ramar Posted January 5, 2014 Author Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) You had to have seen this coming Fierce_Link, Sir Alex Ferguson left his successor a lot of rebuilding work to do, he papered over cracks in his final season or two and didn't leave his successor the squad he could have done. Now the United fans are up in arms about it and want Moyes out. Yes, David Moyes should have splashed some cash particularly in the midfield in the Summer on a player United needed (they didn't need Fellaini) but really Ferguson could have done a better job in ensuring his successor had something to work with till he could build his own squad, United may have walked the title last season but that was all down to Ferguson and his uncanny ability to get the best out of his players, Moyes can't do this at least yet with a team that isn't his own. The Manchester United fans have to stick this out, let Moyes get to grips with this team and bring in the players that will make it "his" team and see what happens in the next season or two and if it still doesn't work out then push him out the door then. For now they have to be patient, some are forgetting it took their great former manager a year or two to start their era of dominance. Spot on. Especially the underlined parts. In fairness to Moyes, the Chief Exec being new to his job the same time as himself didn't help on transfers. Add in some possible naivity and it was never going to be plain sailing for him. I think these cup shocks sometimes get blown out of proportion a bit, yeah it's a shock Utd got beat, but then you look at the team sheet and the line up is quite B-team-ish, as is usually the case for most of these upsets, the FA cup simply isn't that high a priority, West Ham certainly weren't interested. I think a defeat at home in the league to Swansea, with a full strength team out, would be a far more damaging, and far more telling defeat for Utd. On the subject of motivation I think Moyes did a good job motivating Everton, makes you wonder if the Utd players just aren't that hungry if they require different motivation to the Everton players. West Ham losing wasn't an upset, it was obvious. However comparing their loss to Man Utd's is ridiculous. For starters West Ham are actually in the shit, unlike United. They're squad is poor, can't score for love nor money, they've got a ridiculous manager who can only play one way and are actually in a relegation battle that has sapped their confidence. Up against a side who are having a decent season and looking to get promoted. Add in the fact Fat Sam threw a bunch of kids under the bus instead of his best side and it was only going to end with a Forest win. Man Utd on the other hand faced a Swansea side who themselves have been in poor form, their last win was the 4th of December. They had a squad of players who on paper were capable of getting the job done. They didn't, and frankly haven't been doing so all season. Had Man Utd had our group in the Champions League would they still be in it? (If my Aunty had bollocks type of question I know) As for Everton they're fucked when they can't buy the players they have on loan. West Brom style. Even more so if they get into Europe and can't buy because Kenwright is mega tight. Edited January 5, 2014 by Ramar
pratty Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 West Ham losing wasn't an upset.... Up against a side who are having a decent season and looking to get promoted. Add in the fact Fat Sam threw a bunch of kids under the bus instead of his best side and it was only going to end with a Forest win./QUOTE] That's basically what I'm saying though. On paper and at full strength, a Prem side should be at least be competative with a Championship side, and keep it close. But as Sam through the kids under the bus so they got crushed, as bad as they might be they still didn't try as hard as they could. And that's all I said about West Ham, they didn't give enough of a damn about the match to feild a decent team. Similalrly with Utd, if you play a weaker side you decrease your chances of winning, Utd put out a weaker side and suffered a sending off while they were still level, so not that surprising they lost. It might be a damning indication of Utd's relative lack of squad depth, but it's not like Swansea beat Moye's Utd at their best. Wait, what am I doing defending Utd?
ipaul Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Things What do you make of Liverpool and Newcastle?
Ramar Posted January 5, 2014 Author Posted January 5, 2014 What do you make of Liverpool and Newcastle? Today? This season or in general?
Charlie Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Flink, I'm on my phone so keeping it brief. I think you're overstating the quality Man Utds midfield. Nani - has his days, but isn't up to the standard of other top premier league wingers Young - very average. Valencia - again, has his days but isn't consistent Zaha - MIA Kagawa - quality player, hasn't had his chance yet Anderson - how hasn't he been shown the door yet? Carrick - great player but aging Fletcher - been out all season, a good addition now he's back Cleverley - highly rated but hasn't had many great performances. I reckon he'll be at a mid table club in a few seasons Januzaj - quality youngster Fellaini - decent player but probably not Man U quality Giggs - great for certain situations but due to age he can't be much more than that.
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Flink, I'm on my phone so keeping it brief. I think you're overstating the quality Man Utds midfield. Nani - has his days, but isn't up to the standard of other top premier league wingers Young - very average. Valencia - again, has his days but isn't consistent Zaha - MIA Kagawa - quality player, hasn't had his chance yet Anderson - how hasn't he been shown the door yet? Carrick - great player but aging Fletcher - been out all season, a good addition now he's back Cleverley - highly rated but hasn't had many great performances. I reckon he'll be at a mid table club in a few seasons Januzaj - quality youngster Fellaini - decent player but probably not Man U quality Giggs - great for certain situations but due to age he can't be much more than that. If Moyes is going to go for 4-4-2 (which he usually does, or 4-2-3-1 with Rooney dropping deep as one of the 3), then he has those players at his disposal. Based on who you said was above average, you have Carrick, Cleverley, Januzaj, Kagawa, as well as the "average" wingers in Nani, Valencia and Young. You've also got Jones who can do the defensive mid role and does it pretty well as it happens. That is what Ferguson left behind, which is plenty, but DOES need reinforcing. It was expected that Moyes would have done this during the window. I'd hardly look at the likes of Kagawa, Januzaj, Carrick and even Cleverley and say that Fergie left behind "rubbish". If Moyes didn't like the look of any of these players, why not move them on in the summer? He had the opportunity. It just seems poor in my opinion for fans to blame the previous manager. Yes, we struggled against the top, top teams in Europe, so therefore it's an area that needs addressing when the new regime takes over. Which, they haven't. If the midfield was lagging, there were opportunities in the summer to fix it. It seems pointless looking now and blaming the previous manager when the current staff could have sorted it out, too. It all goes back to the summer transfer window. We faffed around for too long and didn't spend enough time looking at realistic targets. Fellaini isn't the answer to any of our problems. Basically, should that midfield be able to beat Swansea, West Brom and Newcastle at home? No disrespect to those teams at all, because they play good football and are well run teams, but our players need to be doing a lot better. We haven't even looked good against any of these teams and it's time the players took some of the blame, too. If anything, bringing new players in would increase the competition, which I'm all for. Edited January 6, 2014 by Fierce_LiNk
Murr Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Any other clubs fancy coming to Old Trafford and breaking a record? My word. My Bristol Rover's friends are devastated that United lost, cause had they won, and Rovers won their re-arranged game at Crawley and pulled off a miracle and beat Birmingham then United would of been playing at Rovers ground. If Bristol City beat Watford they're off to the Etihad (if they beat Blackburn) David Moyes looked dead inside yesterday on the sidelines. Carling Cup it is then for this season...
dazzybee Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Flink you're mental if you're happy with that squad. Bar Rooney and van persie and maybe januzaj for potential I doubt the top 5 would take any other players you have. I personally think what is happening is incredibly predictable, it was so obvious Man U had an average squad but fergir was THAT good. Add that average (all relative by the way, for top 4) squad to an average manager in moyes and you have the hilarious consequences unfolding now. The big question is how long can you back him? Fergie is stubborn and will want to like he was, but it must be hard. Get rid and fergie come back as emergency manager for the rest of the season? Or wait tilt he summer and see how he does In a Full season?
Ramar Posted January 6, 2014 Author Posted January 6, 2014 This season. I think, like us, both are punching above their weight. Liverpool for starters are far too reliant on Suarez. He has a quiet game, they have a quiet game. Their midfield and defence isn't much, fullbacks are poor. I think they'll finish 4th/5th. No European fixtures and out early in the League Cup has served them well. Newcastle, doing better than I thought they would. I can't quite figure it out, because I don't rate Pardew and some of the signings seem to be players other clubs were interested in but didn't want. And yet you've got a team player some good football and doing alright. Whether it's sustainable is another question. Just looked at Cissé, he was decent last season, where's he gone this season? I don't know if you'll keep hold of Remy, personally I'd like to see Arsene through some cash at QPR for him this month.
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Flink you're mental if you're happy with that squad. Bar Rooney and van persie and maybe januzaj for potential I doubt the top 5 would take any other players you have. I personally think what is happening is incredibly predictable, it was so obvious Man U had an average squad but fergir was THAT good. Add that average (all relative by the way, for top 4) squad to an average manager in moyes and you have the hilarious consequences unfolding now. The big question is how long can you back him? Fergie is stubborn and will want to like he was, but it must be hard. Get rid and fergie come back as emergency manager for the rest of the season? Or wait tilt he summer and see how he does In a Full season? Fuck me, Dazzymon. I said what Fergie left was decent and wasn't exactly shit or as bad as others have made out. I've also said that it was obvious that Moyes needed to strengthen in the summer, investing in AT LEAST the right back and midfield areas. We bought one player, Fellaini, who is a midfielder but doesn't really solve any of our problems. Basically, the club as a whole were arrogant in the transfer market and we're paying the price now. Long term, I'm satisfied that Moyes will be able to do a good job. But, he's not winning anybody over with the tactics or the style of play (or the signings). Luckily for him, he's got a long term deal, which means that the board will stick by him. It's been a shit start, but he can recover. Getting rid of him now would solve nothing and would just prolong things for another season. Best to sort things out now.
lostmario Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Long term, I'm satisfied that Moyes will be able to do a good job. But, he's not winning anybody over with the tactics or the style of play (or the signings). Luckily for him, he's got a long term deal, which means that the board will stick by him. It's been a shit start, but he can recover. Getting rid of him now would solve nothing and would just prolong things for another season. Best to sort things out now. I see this as the first big test for the Glazers, this is the first time that they are in a position as football club owners where they have a manager underperforming. Ferguson was unsackable, would you say the same about Moyes? I still think they'll finish in the top 4 but it aint going to be easy. Edited January 6, 2014 by lostmario
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I see this as the first big test for the Glazers, this is the first time that they are in a position as football club owners where they have a manager underperforming. Ferguson was unsackable, would you say the same about Moyes? I still think they'll finish in the top 4 but it aint going to be easy. We probably won't finish top 4. If we did, no way could we sack Moyes. Even then, there's no sense sacking him now as there isn't anyone to come in and it wouldn't be fair on Moyes as he needs more time. He's had a bad start, but it can be turned around. It would destroy him if he were sacked and I wouldn't like to see that. It would also send out a bad message to other managers, that they would need instant success otherwise they are out. The implication of that would be that no new managers would think about long term, promoting youth etc, because that would hinder results. Hope Theo's seasons over! You got your wish. Theo is now missing the World Cup. Gutted for him.
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Gutted for Theo. Have to buy now. Have to feel sorry for Theo. Didn't play in 2006, didn't play in 2010 and won't play in 2014. That's gotta hurt.
Mr-Paul Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Absolutely gutted about Theo. Both for Arsenal and England. Definitely need to strengthen now, and the likes of the Ox and Gnabry would do well to step up for us. Wishing him a better than expected recovery.
Ramar Posted January 6, 2014 Author Posted January 6, 2014 Have to feel sorry for Theo. Didn't play in 2006, didn't play in 2010 and won't play in 2014. That's gotta hurt. Worse than that, shitters like Townsend now have a chance.
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