jayseven Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 You should carry around a big pair of scissors for just those moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iun Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Secondary on the other hand has felt a bit odd at times. In both of my placements, I was the only male in a department of at least 5 other people. At times, I did feel like an outcast, but I can't even say for certain if that was down to me being a male, or me being a trainee, or me being naive at the time or young or new. They were quite miserable. So, in these instances, I was expecting some kind of sexism, particularly in the primary setting. But, nothing. A nice unexpected surprise. I've been very fortunate in that case. As for sexism itself, I find it sad that this is still a problem, either with males or females. I feel nothing but pity for those that are guilty of it. Welp, yours truly started off as an ESL teacher in this here kindergarten, and the discrimination from teachers here was overwhelming, one going so far as to say "You're a man, you should have a man's job, you can't be a kindergarten teacher." Another one I hear all the time since I've moved into management when I propose a male teacher for an international class "Men don't have what it takes to be caregivers and class teachers, they don't have the emotional strength." Hmm, I suppose in a society where displays of emotion by men are actively discouraged, then that must be true. "Women have it worse" is a fine argument, but if you want us to feel sorry for your travails, it's a bit shit of you to ignore ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce_LiNk Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Welp, yours truly started off as an ESL teacher in this here kindergarten, and the discrimination from teachers here was overwhelming, one going so far as to say "You're a man, you should have a man's job, you can't be a kindergarten teacher." Another one I hear all the time since I've moved into management when I propose a male teacher for an international class "Men don't have what it takes to be caregivers and class teachers, they don't have the emotional strength." Hmm, I suppose in a society where displays of emotion by men are actively discouraged, then that must be true. "Women have it worse" is a fine argument, but if you want us to feel sorry for your travails, it's a bit shit of you to ignore ours. Honestly, those were the types of reactions that I expected. The further down you go, the younger the kids are, and the stigma towards men interacting with children that age increases. I believe I got lucky with my current school. In another school, I might not have had that luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ville Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 When you guys were doing teacher training, what was the man-woman ratio there? Here on the class teacher side, women are the majority, but there are still quite a lot of men too. I hope this is a sign of the times changing, i.e. the gender imbalance evening out... And no, no-one in the university or the practices has showed any bit of sexism towards either gender. Men and women are both seen as equally capable teachers. Although, I wonder how it is with the actual teaching...I mean someone wrote that in his class, the girls were much more active than the boys, and in his female colleague's class the situation was reversed. Raises the question whether teachers easily favour the opposite gender, whether they're aware of it or not? --- What comes to sexism experienced by women, the link @Aimless left like a swift backstabber in the night is quite horrible. Wonder what age these "men" / boys are...Anyway, these kinds of accounts, just like Eenuh's, really baffle me. I don't know any men who behave like this, nor would I think of acting like that myself. Still, such "men" do seem to exist and they clearly have no respect for women whatsoever, hence their disgusting behaviour... Now the problem is that all men are labelled due to such douchebaggery, i.e. "men do this, men do that, men are such assholes". Not all men, but some. Yet the stigma is already there; "because some other men behave like total wankholes, you must be one too". No, I'm not, and I'm tired of such allegations... So what are the results of all this? Even proper men resigning from their gender, from being a "man" or in any way masculine, because the connotations are already so negative. In other words, all aboard the feminist choo choo train, so that we can all be happy and feminine together... >_> No. That's just plain sick behaviour, shaming one gender into pieces... So the problem is, what can we do about this? There clearly is a massive divide in how men behave, and the douchebags are holding the gender for ransom. They're all the publicity the male gender gets, i.e. very negative. Just compare to femininity and womanhood, which is connected to motherhood, empowerment (...), sensitivity etc. If a woman is described as a feminine one, it's a compliment on her appearance / sensuality / whatever. Masculinity, however, is not a compliment, but more of a way of making fun and ridiculing people. Being described as "manly" has automatic connotations to some sort of over-the-top machismo, i.e. it has only comedy value, nothing else. Overall, it's rather sad. Yes, gender is just a part of a person, but still, I'd prefer mine as something positive, and not as the pile of feces it has been turned into. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce_LiNk Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 When you guys were doing teacher training, what was the man-woman ratio there? Here on the class teacher side, women are the majority, but there are still quite a lot of men too. I hope this is a sign of the times changing, i.e. the gender imbalance evening out... And no, no-one in the university or the practices has showed any bit of sexism towards either gender. Men and women are both seen as equally capable teachers. Although, I wonder how it is with the actual teaching...I mean someone wrote that in his class, the girls were much more active than the boys, and in his female colleague's class the situation was reversed. Raises the question whether teachers easily favour the opposite gender, whether they're aware of it or not? Interesting questions. When I undertook my course, there were about 5 males, compared to around 30 or more females. Probably more. Maybe even pushing 40. Maybe even more than that. So, men were definitely in the minority. Only two of us wanted to do Primary, too. Pretty sure around 3 of them dropped out/changed course, and then were replaced by another male further down the line. That last question is a tricky one. I had four placements, two secondary and two primary. I didn't enjoy the secondary ones all that much, but loved the primary placement and had an excellent male teacher to help me. For some reason, I probably got on with him a lot more than the other two, who were both women. There's too many factors to take into consideration to say whether I enjoyed it more because he was male, or if the women were harder to work with. It doesn't really work out to be as simple as that. I would say more of it is down to personality than down to gender or sex. The male teacher was very approachable, so I found it relatively easy to talk to him in that particular setting. One of the secondary mentors was a bit difficult to talk to, she was quite set in her ways and didn't really like many of my ideas. Our personalities didn't match up. The balance wasn't right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ville Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 So your system has both primary and secondary teacher training combined? Here they are more separate: class teachers only qualify for primary level teaching, and subject teachers for secondary or third levels (although, both can be mixed with right studies). Yeah, no doubt it's more about personality than gender, but still, I'd much prefer to work in a school where there were also other male teachers. Brings more balance to the equation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce_LiNk Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 So your system has both primary and secondary teacher training combined? Here they are more separate: class teachers only qualify for primary level teaching, and subject teachers for secondary or third levels (although, both can be mixed with right studies). Yeah, no doubt it's more about personality than gender, but still, I'd much prefer to work in a school where there were also other male teachers. Brings more balance to the equation... Well, the course I did was a bit unique. Some of us trained in both primary and secondary, whereas some were solely one or the other. We had certain modules where we all met up together, and then the rest of the time we did our own subject specific modules. So, sometimes I would be with one group of people, then in another module I would have a completely different set. I like to have a variation, purely because you get different types of things to talk about. For example, I talk to the women in my school about certain things that are different to what I talk to the men about. None of the women there have any interest in football (stereotypical, I know), but a few of the men do. It matters a lot to me, so it's good that I can talk about that there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ville Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Yeah, and I think it's also good for the students to have both men and women teaching them. More overall balance and variation, just like you said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 When you guys were doing teacher training, what was the man-woman ratio there? Here on the class teacher side, women are the majority, but there are still quite a lot of men too. I hope this is a sign of the times changing, i.e. the gender imbalance evening out... I don't. It seems like such a flawed idea. "There are more men/women in this industry, we need to recruit more women/men to balance it out." That's only going to lead to positive discrimination. It doesn't take into consideration that it may be the case that more women want to work in teaching, and more men in construction. I don't think want to live in a world where we have to have a 50/50 split everywhere, I'd rather live in a world where we didn't even pay attention to somebody's gender or the gender ratio in an industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I don't. It seems like such a flawed idea. "There are more men/women in this industry, we need to recruit more women/men to balance it out." That's only going to lead to positive discrimination. It doesn't take into consideration that it may be the case that more women want to work in teaching, and more men in construction. I don't think want to live in a world where we have to have a 50/50 split everywhere, I'd rather live in a world where we didn't even pay attention to somebody's gender or the gender ratio in an industry. I agree. I'd rather live in a world where ability would come into play rather than someone's gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 When you guys were doing teacher training, what was the man-woman ratio there? Here on the class teacher side, women are the majority, but there are still quite a lot of men too. I hope this is a sign of the times changing, i.e. the gender imbalance evening out... And no, no-one in the university or the practices has showed any bit of sexism towards either gender. Men and women are both seen as equally capable teachers. Although, I wonder how it is with the actual teaching...I mean someone wrote that in his class, the girls were much more active than the boys, and in his female colleague's class the situation was reversed. Raises the question whether teachers easily favour the opposite gender, whether they're aware of it or not? --- What comes to sexism experienced by women, the link @Aimless left like a swift backstabber in the night is quite horrible. Wonder what age these "men" / boys are...Anyway, these kinds of accounts, just like Eenuh's, really baffle me. I don't know any men who behave like this, nor would I think of acting like that myself. Still, such "men" do seem to exist and they clearly have no respect for women whatsoever, hence their disgusting behaviour... Now the problem is that all men are labelled due to such douchebaggery, i.e. "men do this, men do that, men are such assholes". Not all men, but some. Yet the stigma is already there; "because some other men behave like total wankholes, you must be one too". No, I'm not, and I'm tired of such allegations... So what are the results of all this? Even proper men resigning from their gender, from being a "man" or in any way masculine, because the connotations are already so negative. In other words, all aboard the feminist choo choo train, so that we can all be happy and feminine together... >_> No. That's just plain sick behaviour, shaming one gender into pieces... So the problem is, what can we do about this? There clearly is a massive divide in how men behave, and the douchebags are holding the gender for ransom. They're all the publicity the male gender gets, i.e. very negative. Just compare to femininity and womanhood, which is connected to motherhood, empowerment (...), sensitivity etc. If a woman is described as a feminine one, it's a compliment on her appearance / sensuality / whatever. Masculinity, however, is not a compliment, but more of a way of making fun and ridiculing people. Being described as "manly" has automatic connotations to some sort of over-the-top machismo, i.e. it has only comedy value, nothing else. Overall, it's rather sad. Yes, gender is just a part of a person, but still, I'd prefer mine as something positive, and not as the pile of feces it has been turned into. Any thoughts? I recognise a lot of what you mention there, Ville. The problem isn't even just that some men's bad behaviour gives other men a bad reputation, it's that our current culture assumes men to be physically and sexually violent. We're still expected to live up to the gender roles of manly, masculine men, but at the same time we're told that manly, masculine men are dangerous and bad people. One place in particular where I have also noticed a sharp divide between the genders is in the views on sexuality. Female sexuality is seen as something positive, beautiful, empowering and liberating. Male sexuality, on the other hand, is still seen as something sleazy, perverted and almost morally wrong. Women watching a male stripper? Woo, you go, girl! Men watching a female stripper? Disgusting sleazebags! I don't. It seems like such a flawed idea. "There are more men/women in this industry, we need to recruit more women/men to balance it out." That's only going to lead to positive discrimination. It doesn't take into consideration that it may be the case that more women want to work in teaching, and more men in construction. I don't think want to live in a world where we have to have a 50/50 split everywhere, I'd rather live in a world where we didn't even pay attention to somebody's gender or the gender ratio in an industry. I agree 100%. As long as we keep viewing people as genders instead of individuals, we'll never have equality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ville Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I don't. It seems like such a flawed idea. "There are more men/women in this industry, we need to recruit more women/men to balance it out." That's only going to lead to positive discrimination. It doesn't take into consideration that it may be the case that more women want to work in teaching, and more men in construction. I don't think want to live in a world where we have to have a 50/50 split everywhere, I'd rather live in a world where we didn't even pay attention to somebody's gender or the gender ratio in an industry. Yes, I agree, a forced 50-50 split is not a good idea. What I meant is that hopefully it's a sign of more men being genuinely interested in teaching. More refreshing to see both genders there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I've just seen this video and I'm wondering about what you guys thought about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Good connection. Element of surprise. Followed up with a bouncer throw, Boston-style. 9/10 Should have stuck the landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce_LiNk Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Wow. A lot of trash-talking in that video. On public transport, too. Personally, I'd say that they were both in the wrong. The woman for her "I'mma run my mouth off and there's nothing you can do about eet" and him for taking her head off. Not sure what they're exactly arguing about, but if she's causing trouble, then he should have stopped the bus and ordered her off. I've seen that done before where I come from, part of the reason why I hate buses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Ugh, I hate Firefox sometimes, I had written a paragraph or two but it's not there! I'll write it again... Basically, I was pointing out in the video where the bus driver said something like "You act like a man, I'll treat you like a man". Me and my female friend were talking about the video and she actually agreed with the bus driver when he said that. She said "At the end of the day, if you're going to hit anybody, expect to get hit back. Just because you have a pair of tits, doesn't mean she shouldn't expect a man to lamp her one" (my mate has such a way with words, haha. Also, apparently the woman was hitting the bloke and being racist to him). I wouldn't hit a girl but I have done once. She was one of the people in school who kept on calling me names, which I could take as I got it all of the time so I didn't care, but one time, she kept on hitting me and her group of mates laughed as they watched. I told my teacher but they just said she were playfighting with me (she wasn't) and I told him she wasn't but he was adament she was so I ignored it and carried on doing what I were doing but she followed and punched and kicked and kept on hitting me so I kind of lost it and slapped her round the face. She was really shocked and went round the school saying I was a wifebeater and how I randomly hit her. Anyways, girls believed all of it and were like "Do you like hitting defenceless girls then?" and I just said "She slapped and punched me and I gave her a slap, defenceless my arse!". So after a while, a teacher caught wind of what happened and called us both in the office. She told her side of the story (a pack of lies) and I told her the truth and the teacher turned to her and she said "Well, to be fair, you bloody deserved it!". She tried saying I was a liar but my teacher said "He doesn't lie, he'd come clean if he did anything wrong, always has done" and that was the end of it. The thing I was asking was what do you think of the whole rule of not hitting women. My mate believes that it shouldn't be different for women and it surprised me the amount of females I know that said the same thing. I wondered what everybody else thought. I'm against violence but if I were put in a scenario where I had someone constantly hitting me, I'd probably snap and hit them back. I do kind of feel sorry for the bus driver more than the woman though. I'd have just thrown her off the bus though, haha. But yeah, I hate buses because of behaviour like that and it's quite regular. The video actually reminded me why I wanted my own car as fast as I could, lmao. So what do you guys think: If a girl was hitting a man, does a man have a right to hit back if there wasn't a choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 So what do you guys think: If a girl was hitting a man, does a man have a right to hit back if there wasn't a choice? Absolutely. If you're going to hit somebody, expect to get hit back. If I was in that situation, I would probably try not to hit her (unlike if it was a bloke where I would lamp him straight away), and try other things first. But if she persisted, then definitely would get hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 How are you people able to decipher what's going on in such videos? I can never understand a word of what's going on, I just know it's going to end with somebody getting smacked. As for the question, to me it's the same as with everything else: The gender doesn't matter. I'd avoid violence at all costs, though, both because it rarely solves things and because I'd be absolutely rubbish in a fight. Plenty of girls would be able to beat me up, so on that point I'd rather the saying went "wouldn't hit a boy"! :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwolf Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I'm in agreement here: If a woman hits a man, expect to get hit back. If I hit someone, it doesn't matter what gender, they are well within their own rights to defend themselves. Obviously this, in my mind, comes down to control rather than gender, whether you find it acceptable to hit anybody back, man or woman. But if we want to be treated as equals, we need to have it in all things, we can't just pick and choose. I find unbalance as it were in my work, fortunately, I've never experienced what Iun has come across, I was the only girl in my classes for college and university, spent my time as the only female in a team at Jagex and there is a handful of females at my current work place out of about 40. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, I'm always treated with respect and I wouldn't want more females to join the company, unless they were the best people for the job. So basically, I'm agreeing with this whole page. Carry on. Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iun Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I'm in agreement here: If a woman hits a man, expect to get hit back. If I hit someone, it doesn't matter what gender, they are well within their own rights to defend themselves. Obviously this, in my mind, comes down to control rather than gender, whether you find it acceptable to hit anybody back, man or woman. But if we want to be treated as equals, we need to have it in all things, we can't just pick and choose. I find unbalance as it were in my work, fortunately, I've never experienced what Iun has come across, I was the only girl in my classes for college and university, spent my time as the only female in a team at Jagex and there is a handful of females at my current work place out of about 40. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, I'm always treated with respect and I wouldn't want more females to join the company, unless they were the best people for the job. So basically, I'm agreeing with this whole page. Carry on. Etc. You're right Nightie - equality goes across all things: you want same pay, same rights, same respect then you can absolutely have them. But you have same working hours, same shit given to you and same expectations. One thing that used to bother my old boss and is a big problem for my current school is maternity leave: I'm not precisely sure what the laws are, but the lady with the baby gets a fair amount of time off, paid, and then she can expect to come back to her job after. A man gets what, two weeks? And generally is looked down upon for taking that. At my school here, six teachers out of twenty are pregnant. They will all take a minimum of three months off, which are paid by the school. We then have to get replacements in for the duration. I guess you either have to acknowledge that women are physically different and say "ok, have the job, but your salary will be lower because one day you're going to disappear with a baby" or say "same pay, but if you get pregant I expect you back within a week." I've never struck a woman in anger, and I'm not sure I would. But I'm certain that if a lady attacked me that I would do what's necessary to defend myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 It's a tricky business that, particularly 'cause it's nigh impossible to have an honest discussion about it. A few years ago they hired a woman at my dad's job on the condition that she didn't get pregnant within a half or full year or something. She "accidentally" does this anyway despite the deal, and there's nothing they can do about it because it'd cause an uproar. Stuff like that annoys me immensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwolf Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 You're right Nightie - equality goes across all things: you want same pay, same rights, same respect then you can absolutely have them. But you have same working hours, same shit given to you and same expectations. One thing that used to bother my old boss and is a big problem for my current school is maternity leave: I'm not precisely sure what the laws are, but the lady with the baby gets a fair amount of time off, paid, and then she can expect to come back to her job after. A man gets what, two weeks? And generally is looked down upon for taking that. At my school here, six teachers out of twenty are pregnant. They will all take a minimum of three months off, which are paid by the school. We then have to get replacements in for the duration. I guess you either have to acknowledge that women are physically different and say "ok, have the job, but your salary will be lower because one day you're going to disappear with a baby" or say "same pay, but if you get pregant I expect you back within a week." I've never struck a woman in anger, and I'm not sure I would. But I'm certain that if a lady attacked me that I would do what's necessary to defend myself. But then, what about women who don't want children? My mother never had children (she adopted me and my sister when she married my Dad) and as far as I'm concerned I won't be either. So whilst I agree it makes sense and men should get the same rights, it's not a good way to deal with it by lowering pay in case there are women who can't and won't have children. Although, frankly, I've no objections to the second, back within a week, that's fine. Let's face it, you have 9 months to sort out what you're going to do. /harsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cube Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 In the UK, maternity/paternity leave can be shared between the two patents. There is also statutory adoption leave for parents who adopt. So that aspect seems pretty fair over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I think they should just make maternity and paternity the same. 6 months each. That would remove any arguments by men for it being sexist. It would also remove most of the arguments surrounding the glass ceiling and gender discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iun Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 But then, what about women who don't want children? My mother never had children (she adopted me and my sister when she married my Dad) and as far as I'm concerned I won't be either. So whilst I agree it makes sense and men should get the same rights, it's not a good way to deal with it by lowering pay in case there are women who can't and won't have children. Although, frankly, I've no objections to the second, back within a week, that's fine. Let's face it, you have 9 months to sort out what you're going to do. /harsh I think there's truth in what you're saying there - but there's always the risk, especially for small business owners. There is an adjustment period for new parents, naturally your life is never going to be the same again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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