Diageo Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 I agree, race is a cultural construct which I'm not a big fan of. It's ridiculous that in the past scientists tried to research behaviour specific to certain races and to try and discover the better race. Race itself is not a clear label.
Supergrunch Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 It's not ridiculous, it's a viable hypothesis which has (thankfully) been disproven, also leading to the discovery that "race" can't be accurately defined scientifically.
Diageo Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Because you've just argued so hard that words only have the meaning we put into them, and then you go on to define the connotations of a word in such an absolute manner. Does no one understand me. Everyone seems to take what they think I'm saying and work with that. It's tiring. It's not ridiculous, it's a viable hypothesis which has (thankfully) been disproven, also leading to the discovery that "race" can't be accurately defined scientifically. It was ridiculous when those scientists continued to do it after it was disproven, and that there still is a race box in the census.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Does no one understand me.Everyone seems to take what they think I'm saying and work with that. It's tiring. Relax, I know what you meant. I'm just poking a little fun.
Supergrunch Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 It was ridiculous when those scientists continued to do it after it was disproven, and that there still is a race box in the census. Well, it's at least as meaningful as things like "do you consider youself English?" which arguably aren't meaningful, but some people think they are. And also, you need statistics on the distribution of races to help reduce racism, so it's kind of a tricky area. I never know whether or not to refuse the information, which is usually an option.
Jonnas Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 A black person that doesn't speak English will have no problem with you calling him a nigger. He'll only be offended when you tell him he should be, or that it was meant to be offensive. True, but we are talking about its usage among English speakers, so that point is somewhat irrelevant. My original point is a bit different than Diageo's. What I originally meant was how ridiculous the notion of someone getting flack for uttering the word "Nigger", even if they are using it to describe its meaning. It's a taboo word, and "The N Word" is the politically correct term, which is ridiculous. Context should make the word, not the opposite. If I call a black guy a nigger, yes, that is offensive, I won't argue with that. But saying "Nigger" as part of a meaningless song shouldn't be wrong, nor should I get flack for uttering the word without ever implying my opinions regarding a person or a race. @Supergrunch: How are race-related statistics going to help reduce racism? I'd say it's the opposite.
Supergrunch Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 True, but we are talking about its usage among English speakers, so that point is somewhat irrelevant. My original point is a bit different than Diageo's. What I originally meant was how ridiculous the notion of someone getting flack for uttering the word "Nigger", even if they are using it to describe its meaning. It's a taboo word, and "The N Word" is the politically correct term, which is ridiculous. Context should make the word, not the opposite. If I call a black guy a nigger, yes, that is offensive, I won't argue with that. But saying "Nigger" as part of a meaningless song shouldn't be wrong, nor should I get flack for uttering the word without ever implying my opinions regarding a person or a race. @Supergrunch: How are race-related statistics going to help reduce racism? I'd say it's the opposite. Well, they're arguably necessary to show that there's no racial discrimination going on in organisations and so on, but only arguably, so I'm still not sure. As for your point about nigger - the same is basically true of any swearword, so you get to the somewhat problematic question of whether a word itself, independent of any intention on the part of the speaker, can be offensive. Oddly, it seems that the answer is yes, as many people genuinely don't like to hear swear words, but nobody's entirely sure why this is. Steven Pinker has suggested that people necessarily link swear words to unpleasant thoughts/feelings, and so when they hear the word, they're forced to go back to that unpleasantness, which is a good a guess as any. Of course, if you think about it logically, there's nothing inherently offensive, but that doesn't reflect the way people behave.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 As for your point about nigger - the same is basically true of any swearword, so you get to the somewhat problematic question of whether a word itself, independent of any intention on the part of the speaker, can be offensive. Oddly, it seems that the answer is yes, as many people genuinely don't like to hear swear words, but nobody's entirely sure why this is. Steven Pinker has suggested that people necessarily link swear words to unpleasant thoughts/feelings, and so when they hear the word, they're forced to go back to that unpleasantness, which is a good a guess as any. Of course, if you think about it logically, there's nothing inherently offensive, but that doesn't reflect the way people behave. This is really fascinating. I've always wondered about this myself.
Diageo Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Actually now that I think back on a project I did on race, it really is a terribly implemented construct. Each culture can have it's own way of defining each race term which furthers illustrates the point that it is solely a cultural concept. The worst offender I would say is the American system where you are automatically assigned the race with which your parents had, and always take the one with less "value". So if your father was black and your mother was white, you'd be classified as black. And even if you looked just like the mother, you'd still be classified as black and referred to as trying to "pass off" as white. Someone who refers to themselves as not black in Brazil can be referred as black in America because they have completely different categorisations. The lines the divide each race are so unclear, culturally diverse and badly implemented that it's a wonder that they could even devise experiments with these parameters.
Jonnas Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 While I understand it, I don't think "Fuck" is the same as "Nigger". You get that "Fuck" is offensive because you hear people every day using it in an offensive manner. With "Nigger", you get that it is offensive because other people tell you it is. And then people start treating it as a taboo word without quite understanding why. And what do you get from this? A modern racial slur in a society that should have gotten over racism decades ago. "Nigger" should've stopped being offensive when the issue with slavery was dealt with, but it didn't, because people couldn't forget a random word that is only vaguely associated with the underlying problems in slavery. After writing this, I have reached the conclusion that what really bothers me is the mere existence of racial slurs. It propagates racism, and vice-versa, making for a vicious cycle of mindless, ignorant hate.
Yvonne Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 And the thread was going so well...will try to make some sense of this and respond later on
chairdriver Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 After writing this, I have reached the conclusion that what really bothers me is the mere existence of racial slurs. It propagates racism, and vice-versa, making for a vicious cycle of mindless, ignorant hate. Well yeah, I doubt many people are endorsing the existence of racial slurs
Ville Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Hmm, I have to say that "fuck" and the Finnish equivalent "vittu" (= cunt) have just recently become positive words for me! No-one takes them literally anyway, so the meaning / emotional connection has shifted into that of power and intensity, also achievement, like in "fuck yeah" and "fucking awesome"! I've found out that these kinds of words actually best describe the positive magnitude of my emotions, so thus I also wanna use them...and create some positive connotations! After all, these words are friggin' powerful, so why not use them!
chairdriver Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Yeah, cunt is one of the best / most powerful words in the English language. And it's the best when obvious feminists use it. "Yoü complete cunts."
nightwolf Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Cunt is a brilliant word, I love saying it. Not sure how it's supposed to be the most offensive..
Kurtle Squad Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 A lunch lady is a lunch person (or 'lunch staff', which sounds less awkward) who also happens to be a lady. I'm not saying we shouldn't allow people to call themselves lunch lady if they so choose but in job descriptions and such it shouldn't be classed as 'lunch lady'. It's pretty close to gender discrimination for one thing (it implies males can't apply for the job and it is definitely not exempt from the gender discrimination act). It also helps impregnate the idea that there are male and female job types. And I'm not treating children like idiots. Research has shown that children tend to genderise jobs anyway even when they're non-gender specific (e.g. nurse, cleaner, teacher vs. firefighter, doctor and builder) yet alone when they specifically have the word 'lady' in them. I didn't say must be a knee-jerk reaction. I said I tend to find it is used as a knee-jerk reaction. I also tend to find pear cider preferable to apple but that doesn't mean its a rule. I never mentioned the Daily Mail. I believe they call that projecting... And finally I hope you realise I used the phrase "crazy feminist" ironically and was simply turning the phrase "crazy lefty" I used just a few words prior. I don't think that a lunchlady is officially called a lunchlady anywhere, so much so I didn't even realise that was what was being discussed... seems odd. I find the suggestion of gender roles etc in official/semi-official usage insanely vulgar. Also, the names used for members of staff and such is only the tip of the PC iceberg; something which almost certainly falls within the grey area anyway. My pet peevs are things like using BCE/CE instead of BC/AD on the lower end, and blatent, yet ignored PC racism/sexism etc on the higher end of the scale.
Diageo Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Yeah, cunt is one of the best / most powerful words in the English language. And it's the best when obvious feminists use it. "Yoü complete cunts." Doesn't cunt have some sort of offensive connotations and so should be avoided vehemently like you previously argued?
Kurtle Squad Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) So it's OK to glorify slavery in the company of your friends? Seriously, it's just so whack, on so many levels. NO. I'm not OK with people jokingly calling their gay friends "faggot". Because people get shouted that on the street before they're beaten up (which happened to my friend, as you might remember). Yeah, it might be a joke, but how funny is it? How funny is it to trivialise stuff that's associated with awful things? Have some responsibility with what you say. Maybe others should have responsibility with what they think. Is it the user who trivialises the hearers meaning, or the hearer who trivialises the users meaning? You seem to be putting the blame squarely on the user. Why? Who's glorifying slavery? Or even trivialising it? Just because you wish to associate nigger with slavery, doesn't mean others do. The nigger/slave association is a relatively modern, made-up construct. Certainly "post slavery", and certainly in the UK, where is was used as a synonym for dark/black (with and without racial connotations) until sometime after The War. If one is offended by the word nigger in every context, or any other "slur" then who's fault is that? Only if people accept "slurs" as mere nouns/adjectives will the people of the future get over their negative word associations and stop being offended. Putting weight onto a word doesn't stop the problem, it exacerbates it; you only end up, essentially offending yourself. Fear of a word only increases the fear of the thing itself. Is it not those who suggest that another who isn't offended by slurs is some sort of bigot that are trivialising actual bigotry; I'd say yes. I'll treat others how I wish to be treated; surely that's morally acceptable? I'm required by law to use all slurs: I'm not allowed to discriminate concerning my actions when it comes to many protected characteristics Not that "the law" would see it that way: The judiciary seem to believe that treating black people preferably is what the Equality Act 2010 demands. Sikhs too. That and the law only protects such protected characteristics when it suits them; inside and outside logic and reasoning. Yeah, cunt is one of the best / most powerful words in the English language. And it's the best when obvious feminists use it. "Yoü complete cunts." *coughhypocritecough* How dare you use a word with such connotations! Why would you glorify sexism and women's suffering? I can't believe you don't think women should have the votez and shit!!!!111 Edited July 12, 2011 by Kurtle Squad Automerged Doublepost
Ashley Posted July 12, 2011 Author Posted July 12, 2011 Random argument: Cunt is used as both an insult to a person and as a synonym of 'vagina'. Thus a woman saying "cunt" is using the power of that word and turning it on its head. In this usage its no more offensive than a man calling someone a "cock". It is, after all, a term for a body part. Why should it be any different to calling someone a dick, prick, tit, fanny etc.
Kurtle Squad Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Random argument: Cunt is used as both an insult to a person and as a synonym of 'vagina'. Thus a woman saying "cunt" is using the power of that word and turning it on its head. In this usage its no more offensive than a man calling someone a "cock". It is, after all, a term for a body part. Why should it be any different to calling someone a dick, prick, tit, fanny etc. I think that the feminist argument is that the cunt is a part of a woman, and cunt is a bad word, so therefore using cunt is "degrading to women". But so, apparently, is porn... This is the second post on this site where I've "overused" the word cunt.
Ashley Posted July 12, 2011 Author Posted July 12, 2011 Feminists don't hate porn. Some do, and a lot probably hate certain types of porn, but there is certainly feminist porn out there.
Kurtle Squad Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) Feminists don't hate porn. Some do, and a lot probably hate certain types of porn, but there is certainly feminist porn out there. I know. I was using the most extreme (and disturbingly insane) example. The kind of feminists who think women ?Womyn? should be behind a desk, trying to work their way up the pen-pushing ladder, stuggling against the tyranny of men pigs*. *I have heard that the office environment in certain areas/businesses can actually be really sexist though. Certainly far less so than in laboury type jobs; I can only think it's possibly a class thing... Any more insight into this "phenomenon" would be welcomed. ----------------------------------------------------------- Speaking of etymologies: I just can't stop smirking when I think about, or hear Ethiopia mentioned Oh yeah; another of my pet peevs conserning PC is their allowance of the term vandal(ism). Edited July 12, 2011 by Kurtle Squad
Yvonne Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/ This might be a decent starting point for people who want to learn more/find out how much they really know about this
heroicjanitor Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Is women getting paid less actually true? I mean on a per hour basis. If so I'd like to see some recent evidence of it, rather than people just saying it. I always see this come up and as far as my research goes it simply isn't true. Men just work more overtime and take less leave(for various reasons, not because I am insulting women).
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