Life after Wii

[Burny]

Didn't Metroid Prime 3 have an achievements system?

 

I like the points/trophies systems on the 360/PS3. Adds a little more pizazz and banter to a game. Arguably makes gaming somewhat elitist though.

In Metroid Prime (+ Echoes) stuff was unlocked depending on your completion rate. In Metroid Prime 3 and the Trilogy, the system was replaced with different kind of points you could collect during play, which were used in the menu to unlock soundtrack, artwork, a screenshot tool and dioramas. Some points have to be sent to people on your Wii's friend list with a Metroid Prime 3 save, so you can only get them from somebody else who has the game. With the Wii's incredible ( ) friendcode system, you can figure how popular that feature turned out.

 

In a way it was less than XBox/PS3/Steam achievements, as nobody actually saw what you had done in the game. On the other hand, being used to unlock stuff, these points had actually a use.

 

Wii Sports Resort pretty much has an achievement system. Your Mii can unlock clover leaf medals for different feats. They serve no purpose except for being there and telling you, that you have managed to not miss a single shot etc.. Add the community aspect and a level that increases as you accumulate them, and you have achievements.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Burny

[darksnowman]

Didn't Metroid Prime 3 have an achievements system?

 

I like the points/trophies systems on the 360/PS3. Adds a little more pizazz and banter to a game. Arguably makes gaming somewhat elitist though.

 

In Metroid Prime (+ Echoes) stuff was unlocked depending on your completion rate. In Metroid Prime 3 and the Trilogy, the system was replaced with different kind of points you could collect during play, which were used in the menu to unlock soundtrack, artwork, a screenshot tool and dioramas. Some points have to be sent to people on your Wii's friend list with a Metroid Prime 3 save, so you can only get them from somebody else who has the game. With the Wii's incredible ( ) friendcode system, you can figure how popular that feature turned out.

 

In a way it was less than XBox/PS3/Steam achievements, as nobody actually saw what you had done in the game. On the other hand, being used to unlock stuff, these points had actually a use.

 

Don't forget Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

Is Kirby's Air Ride attributed as being the first game to have an achievement system?

 

Wii Sports Resort pretty much has an achievement system. Your Mii can unlock clover leaf medals for different feats. They serve no purpose except for being there and telling you, that you have managed to not miss a single shot etc.. Add the community aspect and a level that increases as you accumulate them, and you have achievements.

 

Interesting point though if we expand it to medals=achievements then surely almost every game has them. Know what I mean? I think achievements are a double edged sword. They can make games boring if you become obsessed with hunting for them (unless you are H-o-T) but then on the other hand, they can encourage you to do things you might not normally do, right? (I can't give examples of the latter as I don't have a PS360!)

[Burny]

Don't forget Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

Is Kirby's Air Ride attributed as being the first game to have an achievement system?

Or pretty much any game that unlocks something for ingame feats. But those aren't achievements in the XBox/PS3/Steam sense. In many of the games on XBox/PS3/Steam you have game content to unlock aside from achievements.

 

Interesting point though if we expand it to medals=achievements then surely almost every game has them. Know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean, and no, not every game has them. As I said, aside from something telling explicitly you have gotten the achievement and what you had to do for it, it's the community aspect that makes the achievements. As long as they're tied to the game and not somehow visible for other players in your general profile, that extra incentive they give to some people is not there. In the best case, they are the reason people play a game longer/harder or waste more time shaking virtual hands.

 

 

I just don't think they generally add much to games in their current form. On Steam/PSN even the community aspect manifests merely in the trophy level a player has and the ability to browse through a friend's achievements and compare them to yours. Unless you actively look, you won't know what achievement other people have recently gotten. Don't know if there's more to it on the XBox. But they don't save bad games and don't break good games either way.

 

That's why I find it unlikely that we'll see Nintendo just copying them.

 

Something like facebook's activity log, that shows you what people on your friends list have been up to in their playtime (including some sort of achievements), could be much more useful, I think.

It should be the very first thing you see when you fire up the system and it might contain information like: "Player XY has raped everyone in Mario Kart yesterday evening and then went on to kick some ass in Smash Brothers." Or stuff like: "Player XY now owns Cave Story from the download store", "Player XY rated Cave Story 5/5. How would you rate it?".

Edited January 4, 2011 by Burny

[darksnowman]

That's why I find it unlikely that we'll see Nintendo just copying them.

 

Yeah I wouldn't expect Nintendo to just copy and paste. They will make it their own or not do it at all- something they demonstrate time and again. Stick in the muds.

[LostOverThere]

Yeah I wouldn't expect Nintendo to just copy and paste. They will make it their own or not do it at all- something they demonstrate time and again. Stick in the muds.

Pretty much this. Nintendo like doing their own thing.

[mcj metroid]

I really hope nintendo don't do an achievement system. It's ok in multiplayer-focused games but I can imagine it destroying single player experiences that rely on the mood and suspense. I can't imagine it in silent hill 2 for instance.

[Eddage]

I really hope nintendo don't do an achievement system. It's ok in multiplayer-focused games but I can imagine it destroying single player experiences that rely on the mood and suspense. I can't imagine it in silent hill 2 for instance.

 

How would achievements spoil the mood of a game?

 

If you're referring to something appearing on screen in the middle of gameplay then you can always turn the notifications off...

[mcj metroid]

How would achievements spoil the mood of a game?

 

If you're referring to something appearing on screen in the middle of gameplay then you can always turn the notifications off...

 

Ah well in that case forget it. Ya that's what I was referring to.

 

Still wouldn't be bothered if they didn't put them in next gen.

[Burny]

Yeah I wouldn't expect Nintendo to just copy and paste. They will make it their own or not do it at all- something they demonstrate time and again. Stick in the muds.

Pretty much this. Nintendo like doing their own thing.

 

Always. For better or for worse!

 

The only thing achievements can actually ruin is the story. There are often achievements that are only there to reflect how far you've come in the story. So, if achievement for chapter 5 says "you were betrayed by <some ingame character>, but took revenge", it can spoil things.

 

Even that is accounted for however, as such achievements can be hidden (at least on PSN and Steam) until you get them. If you're actively browsing through achievement list online and get spoiled, then that's really your fault.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Burny

[Hero-of-Time]

The only thing achievements can actually ruin is the story. There are often achievements that are only there to reflect how far you've come in the story. So, if achievement for chapter 5 says "you were betrayed by <some ingame character>, but took revenge", it can spoil things.

 

Even that is accounted for however, as such achievements can be hidden (at least on PSN and Steam) until you get them. If you're actively browsing through achievement list online and get spoiled, then that's really your fault.

 

Alot of the time achievements that are spoliers or story related are secret ones. As you said, the only way you know about these is if you go looking for them.

 

I really hope nintendo don't do an achievement system. It's ok in multiplayer-focused games but I can imagine it destroying single player experiences that rely on the mood and suspense. I can't imagine it in silent hill 2 for instance.

 

Multiplayer achievements are hands down the worst of the lot, especially the ones that make you rank up to whatever level.

[darksnowman]

Always. For better or for worse!

 

Poor Wii Speak. I used it for Animal Crossing and felt like a wally doing so. I probably would have still felt like a nitwit with the use of a headset because talking about fishing, catching butterflies and playing hide and seek wouldn't have suddenly become testosterone filled and hardcore with a headset on.

 

I kind of wish there was some kind of chat in GoldenEye. Hopefully with Nintendo's gradual progress with the Wii, they will be better equipped for life after the Wii.

[Kav]

I don't get why GoldenEye didn't use the headset seeing as it came out almost the sane time as Black Ops did. It works great and just makes the whole online experience a hell of a lot better.

 

I hope that Nintendo really do up the ante as far as online goes, Black Ops shows what it could be like, giving an Xbox Live experience on the Wii. I don't see why Nintendo haven't embraced this at all!

[tapedeck]

I agree with the above. Nintendo seem hell bent on protecting us when online yet it's all a little condescending. We live in an age where Internet usage is the norm and online gaming has become both expected and embedded into practically all genres.

 

Living in fear never did anyone any good so Nintendo should just embrace online functionality, opening it up, treating all types of gamer with respect.

 

The thing is, by protecting little Timmy they are segregating their users and actually promoting that the online gaming landscape is a harmful place. Why cant they just focus on the content instead - keeping it about the gaming experience in typical Nintendo fashion? Most gamers would use a computer anyway which is FAR more 'dangerous' than those who are gaming.

 

I wonder, when looking at the 3 major consoles if it is possible to have a jack of all trades approach to online gaming or should Nintendo just keep their friend code idea?

Edited January 8, 2011 by tapedeck

[Burny]

I wonder, when looking at the 3 major consoles if it is possible to have a jack of all trades approach to online gaming or should Nintendo just keep their friend code idea?

 

The hole friend code bs. in its current form is unacceptable in the future.

When you actually get to play with somebody you know, it's like sitting on the sofa next to them without ever speaking a word until one of you quits the game and walks out. Not worth your precious gaming time in the evening when everyone else offers a better system or you could just play a single player game.

 

Nintendo alone might get off with it because they're usually that good at everything else, but some 3rd parties have to rely on Nintendo's system, too. Not everybody in the business can just offer an online system of their own like CoD:BO and (I believe) MH3 on the Wii do. That's also not desirable on a closed system like the consoles because in the end, you'll again have different IDs for the same people in different games.

 

Nintendo seems not completely immune to reason in that respect though. CoD:BO can be patched (basic requirement for successful games with heavy online functionality and long time player base) and Monster Hunter was a massive online effort that at least tried to incorporate basic online features you know from other systems. By now, the message that this stuff isn't luxury should have arrived at Nintendo.

 

Beyond the fact that Nintendo's system is inconvenient and useless as hell, there are also issues with a larger financial impact. Without an account based online system Nintendo isn't able to lock out people who opt to not pay for their games (and cheaters).

[Jamba]

Nintendo isn't shouting about changing the online system for the 3DS so I have serious doubts for anything good at the moment. I have to be very honest and say that Nintendo has to give me reasons to buy their products now rather than me give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I know that online gaming is a big deal to others. To me, however, it's not an overly important issue. In fact, I've probably been more focused towards playing single player games this generation than the previous, which is...a bit ironic considering the flack the Wii gets for being a "party console."

 

It's not essential to me. I've found myself put off by shooters whilst re-finding my love for platformers, adventures, and even my thirst for survival horror-esque titles.

 

However, Nintendo do need to pull their fingers out when they sort out their next system. I remember hearing about the Wii Console Code and took that to be a given that we'd just have the one centralised code this time. It wasn't to be. For whatever reason.

 

In my mind, I think Nintendo are trying far too hard to do things their own special way. I think most gamers would just rather Nintendo gave them a decent service (even if it meant them replicating xbox live or something similar) rather than try to go about it in a different way, and end up causing more problems than it solves.

 

The multiplayer system for Mario Kart DS was the most ridiculous thing I've ever had to endure. Complete pain in the arse to get online.

 

"1...dot"

"I see 1, too!"

"I see 3..." (all this talk is over msn btw)

"3? RESTART."

"1."

"1."

"2"

"...ffs"

[Hero-of-Time]

All they have to do is copy XBL. Friendslist, party chat, games section for videos and demos, online store, all with a Nintendo spin. Sorted.

 

It's really annoying to see Nintendo so far behind when it comes to online gaming. They have some killer games that would be fantastic with a decent online setup. Starfox, F-Zero, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Wii Sports, games like these could be great online.

[Jamba]

It's just so far behind the curve. I feel like I get a better online experience from my phone and the fact that both MS and Sony are actually trying to give their customers what they want a lot of the time is nice to see.

 

I think that when it comes to games Nintendo deliver quite well but functionality is becoming a major stickler for me. It feels even more constraining than Apple's philosophy in some ways.

 

At least with Apple you get innovative functionality and fairly cutting edge product but just done in their way only. With Nintendo you limited functionality with a couple of very cool tricks done in their own little way and if they don't think that you should have a particular functionality then they won't bother.

[Burny]

All they have to do is copy XBL. Friendslist, party chat, games section for videos and demos, online store, all with a Nintendo spin. Sorted.

 

There is a massive investment in development behind the simple "All they have to do is copy XBL". All those features aren't exactly scientifically challenging, but you need a fairly competent team of software engineers and they won't just do it over the week end.

 

After Nintendo's success with the Wii and the DS though, I would expect them to be able and to make that investment.

 

At least in terms of "videos and demos, online store" there is pretty much clarity, that the 3DS will have them (although I suspect this video to be a mockup):

 

 

In terms of friendlists... If they'll again try to justify friend codes, online gaming on their next system will be another still birth. If they have at least an account based system, not all is lost.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Burny

[Zechs Merquise]

Some of you really need to play Black Ops on the Wii... It basically has XBOX Live on the Wii, with a headset. Simple. I'm pretty sure if Treyarch can do all that in one game Nintendo can do it for the system. Yes, Nintendo are behind the times with online, but towards the end of this generation they have relaxed a lot.

[Jamba]

Some of you really need to play Black Ops on the Wii... It basically has XBOX Live on the Wii, with a headset. Simple. I'm pretty sure if Treyarch can do all that in one game Nintendo can do it for the system. Yes, Nintendo are behind the times with online, but towards the end of this generation they have relaxed a lot.

 

Do you use XBL Zechs? Because form what I know the Wii simply can't do an XBL experience simply because of the friends code system. And even if something like that can be done individual developers shouldn't be the ones having to put in the time and money to make it so.

[Kav]

Do you use XBL Zechs? Because form what I know the Wii simply can't do an XBL experience simply because of the friends code system. And even if something like that can be done individual developers shouldn't be the ones having to put in the time and money to make it so.

 

Black Ops on the Wii really does give an Xbox Live experience, no friend codes... but it is specific to Black Ops only.

You can see who is playing Black Ops, who's on the multiplayer, who's on the zombies, you can send messages to anyone, view a list of anyone who you've recently played with online and send simple friend requests without having to trade any codes whatsoever.

 

Seriously, it's near identical to Live (except specificly to Black Ops)!

 

But I agree that it shouldn't have taken Treyarch to show that it could be done, Nintendo should've done this straight off the bat.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Kav

[Jamba]

Black Ops on the Wii really does give an Xbox Live experience, no friend codes... but it is only specific to Black Ops.

You can see who is playing Black Ops, who's on the multiplayer, who's on the zombies, you can send messages, view a list of who you've recently played with and send simple friend requests without havi g to trade any codes.

 

Seriously, it's near identical.

 

OK... interesting. I have honestly not read up on BlackOps because I'm totally COD'd out. So how do you initially friend up with people? And also, lets make the point that what you do in this game doesn't carry over to any other games.

 

Sure it sounds like a massive step in the right direction but my problem is that as Nintendo haven't done this Nintendo are less likely to do it in the future.

[Kav]

...So how do you initially friend up with people?

 

It depends.

If you want to search out someone in particular that you haven't yet bumped into, you do enter a code to search, but this is essentially like entering someone's Gamertag to search for them. No exchanging of codes will be done, simply a friend request will be sent to that person who can then accept or decline.

 

If you want to add someone from the game lobby you just highlight their name, click A and you have a bunch of options, one of which is to send a friend request which they can accept or decline, again without the exchange of any codes at all.

 

If you wish to add someone you played with earlier in the day, you can check your "recently played" list, select the person you wish to add and send a request, again no exhange of codes necessary.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Kav

[Hero-of-Time]

Some of you really need to play Black Ops on the Wii... It basically has XBOX Live on the Wii, with a headset. Simple. I'm pretty sure if Treyarch can do all that in one game Nintendo can do it for the system. Yes, Nintendo are behind the times with online, but towards the end of this generation they have relaxed a lot.

 

As Jamba said though, this is Treyarchs doing and not Nintendos. An online system should already be in place for developers to use, instead they have to sort things out themselves. Nintendo don't seem bothered with online gaming.

 

In regards to the bolded section, Nintendo may have relaxed a little but as you said it's late on in the generation. It's 2011 and things like online gaming have been standard for a long time on consoles but Nintendo seem to be living in the past.

 

If they don't deliver a decent online set up for their next console then I think they will struggle for 3rd party support even more. Many developers like putting online multiplayer in their games, sure sometimes it doesn't work but the choice is theirs. On the HD twins it isn't a problem but with the Wii they either have to deliver a scaled back experience, set up a system themselves or just cut it out altogether.

 

I really hope they do see the value in online gaming with their next console. With the cash they have made this generation with the DS and the Wii they could create a decent online set up. I'm not holding my breath though...