How do you solve a problem like North Korea?

[stuwii]

Actually Russia and Eastern Europe was plunged into deep poverty. Simple facts on the United Nations Development Programme...

 

-Life expectancy was at an average 67 at the end of the Soviet Union - 62 in the 90s in Russia (for men it was just 60). The suicide rate doubled.

-Unemployment quadrupled between 1989 and 1994.

-HIV infections rose 8 times between 1990 and 2000 due to poor social condition, increased use of drugs and expensive healthcare.

-The cost of living rose from 2.5% of income in Soviet times to an average of 40% in modern Russia.

 

Development FTW.

 

AND SINCE THEN? Think you find it has improved since the transition period

[MoogleViper]

Ah it doesn't really bother me, I just find it curious. Maybe because Apple capitalise the names of their products like that, people assume it's the case with me.

 

Is your name not based on the Apple products?

[ipaul]

Ah good man! The impression I get from her is that all governments are just as bad as each other when it comes to the economy & human rights. What a world.

 

Anyway, I know I'm a selfish, materialistic son-of-a-gun and I'm not afraid to admit it. Now if you don't mind, I need to count my money while I drink my imported coffee in my Made in China mug.

 

The message I had obtained was that the economic revolutions the US had imposed incurred great consequences. For all our flaws, I still believe we've better governments than North Korea or Iran. Prone to a belief in nationalisation, I still don't think Capitalism is utter evil as 'tendo suggests.

 

Is your name not based on the Apple products?

 

Oh well it is partly, it's just not capitalised in the same way :p

 

Do you believe communism could ever work? Not trying to imply anything with this, just curious.

[Daft]

AND SINCE THEN? Think you find it has improved since the transition period

 

What are you basing that on?

[MoogleViper]

Do you believe communism could ever work? Not trying to imply anything with this, just curious.

 

I'm not sure. I'd consider myself a socialist. I think the idea of communism is great, but I don't think it could work in reality.

 

 

What are you basing that on?

 

This is stuwii, he does base what he says on anything. He just spouts unsupported nonsense.

 

Well we could destroy the regime, but...

3. Is the equipment so outdated one f-22 raptor could take on their entire airforce, and win?

 

Look he actually thinks that despite them having the fifth largest army in the world. Despite their army of 1.2 million being about 7 times larger than ours, he thinks one of our planes could beat their entire airforce because they're so outdated. What does he think they're using exactly? Paper aeoplanes?

[ipaul]

I'm not sure. I'd consider myself a socialist. I think the idea of communism is great, but I don't think it could work in reality.

 

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. I'd class myself as nearly a socialist.

[Shorty]

I think it's something to do with there being no equalivalent letter to the letter L in east asian languages, and r is usually used as a subsititute.

 

This somewhat sums it upL http://maki.typepad.com/justhungry/2007/12/why-japanese-pe.html although this resource specifies Japanese it goes for Korean and Chinese as well I believe.

No I mean... I get that the Ls are being swapped for Rs. I have studied Japanese (and watched Lost in Translation). But there's one too many in "seriously", it's like... "serirousry"

[stuwii]

I'm not sure. I'd consider myself a socialist. I think the idea of communism is great, but I don't think it could work in reality.

 

 

 

This is stuwii, he does base what he says on anything. He just spouts unsupported nonsense.

 

 

 

Look he actually thinks that despite them having the fifth largest army in the world. Despite their army of 1.2 million being about 7 times larger than ours, he thinks one of our planes could beat their entire airforce because they're so outdated. What does he think they're using exactly? Paper aeoplanes?

 

No, ones that are so old, they cannot even fly now

[MoogleViper]

No, ones that are so old, they cannot even fly now

 

Hahaha are you serious? So in your world there'd be Korean pilots just sat in a plane holding the choke out trying to get it to start?

[Daft]

No, ones that are so old, they cannot even fly now

 

What are you basing that on?

[Nicktendo]

See you all bash me for being so anti-capitalist but I only have this view because of the immense amount of stuff I've read on the subject. I appreciate, that from where we sit it's difficult to comprehend, so I'm going away to compile a list of stuff for you all to read, not because I want to change your opinion, but because it's such a wealth of stuff to consider, that it can't just happen overnight.

 

Like the majority (on a Nintendo forum ffs), I'm from a stable middle class family who should in reality have no qualms with my way of life, as I've got it pretty good, but when I discovered the other side of the coin, it truly did upset and anger me. Now I'm not saying that capitalism is the worst thing evarrzzz!!11 (I should have put a smiliey on my last post) but it's simply not good... at all. And it will honestly result in the death of us all, especially when the oil runs out....

 

The people in control have absolutely no care what-so-ever to make things better for anyone. They only want to line their own pockets, nothing else matters. It is an evil, rotten system that puts the desires (not even needs) of the few above the literal needs of the many. The IMF and global bodies such as the World Bank are so utterly corrupt to the core in the way they operate, that the world is still effectively under colonial rule. Places like North Korea, which are exempt from this way of life seem so utterly alien to us because we simply cannot comprehend how they function, whether it is good or bad, for me is not the issue, it is a symbol of hope AGAINST capitalism, regardless of what condition the country is in.

 

The US is so anti-communist because it knows against that kind of system it cannot compete, because there is no one to exploit to support their way of life, this is why they funded and supported the Taliban against Soviet invasion in the 70s, a plan which now has massively backfired as the Taliban are standing up against Western oppression and global domination with the weapons the US gave them in the first place! (Please do not make the mistake of assuming I support the Taliban, because I really, really don't - they are even more backwards than the West and so blinded by religion it's untrue), but importantly, they are another group who will not just lie down to the Steamroller of capitalism.

 

Noam Chomsky is a good place to start reading, Howard Zinn is also excellent (particularly A People's History of the United States), as mentioned Naomi Klein's books No Logo and The Shock Doctrine. Economist David Harvey is another truly excellent author with numerous books on the Third World effects of capitalism. Jared Diamond and Gustavo Esteva look at the affects on Latin America in particular and the influence the US has over the region. There are literally hundreds of places to find a wealth of information about what the pursuit of profit does to the people of this earth, Anything related to "post development theory."

 

If you're not big on books then you MUST watch Zeitgeist. It's one and a half hours long and will literally transform your outlook on life and make you want to know more or do your own research, as will who killed the electric car. Both are available on Youtube.

 

Don't think that just because you have a comfortable life, everything is great. It's not. We can only live like this because of the unimaginable sacrifice billions of people make every single day of their lives. I know given the choice, none of us would choose to live like that, so why should they? We are not better than them, we are all human. To turn a blind eye, is to be ignorant and in-human. Simple geography dictates which system we are born into, education and action can change it. Some of us are in a better position than others to use the opportunities given to us, instead of just ignoring injustice on a massive scale, yet we are so ingrained into our way of life that someone with views similar to mine is labelled 'fringe' or 'red terrorist' so really the fight for justice in the third world is already lost.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Nicktendo

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I started off thinking: "What the hell is Nicktendo on about, supporting North Korea?!" But the way you have presented your view now makes me realize that I very much agree with you. I'm not as passionate about the topic as you and so still find it hard to "like" the North Korean regime, but I agree with your line of thought.

[Nicktendo]

I started off thinking: "What the hell is Nicktendo on about, supporting North Korea?!" But the way you have presented your view now makes me realize that I agree very much with you. I'm not as passionate about the topic as you and so still find it hard to "like" the North Korean regime, but I agree with your line of thought.

 

I also do not 'like' North Korea. In no sense of the word. The interpretation of communism the government has adapted is twisted to say the least and gives any communist or indeed socialist a bad name. However, I genuinely believe without such an 'extreme' adaptation of it, it would struggle to survive against the modern world.

 

The regime is, by all accounts including my Uncle's brief interpretation there, evil. However, I appreciate the huge sacrifice the regular people there make, either through choice or not, against economic globalisation. I am convinced, in reality the average life there is no harder than that of a low-skilled worker in China, if very, very different in our understanding.

 

To me, they are one of the lasts symbol of hope against capitalism because they simply will not back down. They have the US in a fit over nuclear weapons when there is simply not a chance in hell they have any. They stand their ground against market-driven global domination, when other corrupt governments are falling to the West all the time in Latin America, Africa and Asia. I do believe they will eventually crumble and in my opinion it will be a sad day for the plight of the working man against economic oppression.

[ipaul]

I also do not 'like' North Korea. In no sense of the word. The interpretation of communism the government has adapted is twisted to say the least and gives any communist or indeed socialist a bad name. However, I genuinely believe without such an 'extreme' adaptation of it, it would struggle to survive against the modern world.

 

The regime is, by all accounts including my Uncle's brief interpretation there, evil. However, I appreciate the huge sacrifice the regular people there make, either through choice or not, against economic globalisation. I am convinced, in reality the average life there is no harder than that of a low-skilled worker in China, if very, very different in our understanding.

 

To me, they are one of the lasts symbol of hope against capitalism because they simply will not back down. They have the US in a fit over nuclear weapons when there is simply not a chance in hell they have any. They stand their ground against market-driven global domination, when other corrupt governments are falling to the West all the time in Latin America, Africa and Asia. I do believe they will eventually crumble and in my opinion it will be a sad day for the plight of the working man against economic oppression.

 

Just out of interest, have you ever read any pro capitalist material? Capitalism and Freedom by Milton Friedman for example.

[Nicktendo]

I've read "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith and admittedly lots of critiques of capitalist material, especially Friedman.

 

I admire the capitalist plight of freedom and democracy but it's a concept that cannot work without exploitation. The concept of 'progress' from capitalism is an unrealistic one as well. When is 'progress' realised or is it just a continual process designed to derive the earth of all it's natural minerals and resources for consumption?

 

I admit there are many, many problems with socialism and communism and experiments in the past could be considered failures, however, that's not to say these problems are manageable, as it seems capitalisms problems aren't, as we have seen in the past few years. I think global socialism would look very different from what was around during the cold war, with competition from the West.

[Noodleman]

The regime is, by all accounts including my Uncle's brief interpretation there, evil. However, I appreciate the huge sacrifice the regular people there make, either through choice or not, against economic globalisation. I am convinced, in reality the average life there is no harder than that of a low-skilled worker in China, if very, very different in our understanding.

 

While I'm sure life in as a factory worker in China is not great that is just utter tosh. Check out the book I linked to on the first page please.

 

China haven't managed to kill 3 million of their own people (since Chairman Mao's time at least) through a disastrous food policy. While Chinas human rights record is not exactly great it is far far better than North Korea's. The main problem of course being that Juche doesn't work and has not since the fall of the USSR.

 

They don't produce enough food to feed everybody

 

"In 2006, Amnesty International reported that a national nutrition survey conducted by the North Korean government, the World Food Programme, and UNICEF found that 7% of children were severely malnourished; 37% were chronically malnourished; 23.4% were underweight; and one in three mothers was malnourished and anaemic as the result of the lingering effect of the famine. The inflation caused by some of the 2002 economic reforms, including the Songun or "Military-first" policy, was cited for creating the increased price of basic foods"

 

Peoples accounts of the lack of food in that book are horrifying, so people resort to having their own private vegetable plots, which they sell excess food on the black market which the North Korean government claim does not exist, but allow to continue because they know they cannot feed the population.

[Pookiablo]

I'd like to say that my "red terrorist" remark was only a joke. In reality though, the Red Army Faction did fight for this notion of freeing the masses from capitalism's enslavement through means of consumerism. Hence the (light-hearted) comparison. Sorry, I'm a little intrigued by them because my recent dissertation was based on them.

 

I personally don't see how you can stop capitalism, well at least not anytime soon. The problem is that people have been so conditioned through consumerism that trying to convert them to an international system based on equality and fairness would practically require something more attractive than consumerism, and let's face it, many people would rather have lots of money than have a lesser lifestyle than they're accustomed to. I think it's probably in our nature to just exploit and compete, as horrible as it is to say. Furthermore, with the mass media and the government painting the picture of the world how they see it, it seems pretty unlikely that enough people will see the other side of it. Man, I feel like such a pessimist. But I mean look at people who work in unskilled jobs - earning £5-7 an hour is not a living wage. It's a dreadful wage, especially when u consider how much profit large companies make. Sure, these jobs are now marketed at people who want to work part-time or are students but there's still plenty of people who work in these areas full-time. It's astonishing that people haven't risen up on a mass scale and demanded some sort of living wage but then I guess, they've probably been conditioned into accepting that as the norm.

 

Either way, as I stated above, I accept that the majority of how I live my life has a negative effect on other people's. Do I find that a bad thing? Yes. Am I going to do something about it? No, not unless the conditions allow for it, and that'd involve every single nation of the world cooperating, yada yada, etc. Most people aren't willing to admit that - there's always someone else to blame such as an "evil dictator" or "communism" if you're Stuwii. These blamees certainly have a considerable share of the blame, after all they're profiting from an already bad system. What annoys me though is people who bang on about problems in other countries and say its outrageous that the elite there are doing X and Y to their people yet they also live a lifestyle that contradicts their supposed point of view (e.g. they think exploitation in Africa is wrong but still buy Starbucks coffee, and don't give me that fairtrade crap, that's still an exploitary method). That's just being a hypocrite. That and I'm a realist.

[Nicktendo]

While I'm sure life in as a factory worker in China is not great that is just utter tosh. Check out the book I linked to on the first page please.

 

China haven't managed to kill 3 million of their own people (since Chairman Mao's time at least) through a disastrous food policy. While Chinas human rights record is not exactly great it is far far better than North Korea's. The main problem of course being that Juche doesn't work and has not since the fall of the USSR.

 

They don't produce enough food to feed everybody

 

"In 2006, Amnesty International reported that a national nutrition survey conducted by the North Korean government, the World Food Programme, and UNICEF found that 7% of children were severely malnourished; 37% were chronically malnourished; 23.4% were underweight; and one in three mothers was malnourished and anaemic as the result of the lingering effect of the famine. The inflation caused by some of the 2002 economic reforms, including the Songun or "Military-first" policy, was cited for creating the increased price of basic foods"

 

Peoples accounts of the lack of food in that book are horrifying, so people resort to having their own private vegetable plots, which they sell excess food on the black market which the North Korean government claim does not exist, but allow to continue because they know they cannot feed the population.

 

That's truly horrific, I didn't realise it was on such a huge scale, even though I knew it was. I retract my earlier comment regarding China and maintain that I think the North Korean govt. is evil

 

What annoys me though is people who bang on about problems in other countries and say its outrageous that the elite there are doing X and Y to their people yet they also live a lifestyle that contradicts their supposed point of view (e.g. they think exploitation in Africa is wrong but still buy Starbucks coffee, and don't give me that fairtrade crap, that's still an exploitary method). That's just being a hypocrite.

 

Don't get me started.... :p

 

I appreciate that for Westerners to elect out of such systems is nigh on impossible especially after being used to it for so long, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make even a little bit of effort.

[Emasher]

Look he actually thinks that despite them having the fifth largest army in the world. Despite their army of 1.2 million being about 7 times larger than ours, he thinks one of our planes could beat their entire airforce because they're so outdated. What does he think they're using exactly? Paper aeoplanes?

 

Even with more planes, it would be very difficult for the North Koreans to win against 5th generation fighters. The United States has 168 F-22 Raptors which will be pretty much invisible to the North Korea aircraft, as they use stealth, and won't show up on the radars. The united states, and many other countries will also be starting to use a number of F-35s in a few years. This is compared to North Koreas 40 4th generation fighters, and numerous older fighters they have (Most of which are from the 60s), and not even looking at any older US aircraft. Its very likely that the US would easily gain air superiority.

[MoogleViper]

Even with more planes, it would be very difficult for the North Koreans to win against 5th generation fighters. The United States has 168 F-22 Raptors which will be pretty much invisible to the North Korea aircraft, as they use stealth, and won't show up on the radars. The united states, and many other countries will also be starting to use a number of F-35s in a few years. This is compared to North Koreas 40 4th generation fighters, and numerous older fighters they have (Most of which are from the 60s), and not even looking at any older US aircraft. Its very likely that the US would easily gain air superiority.

 

I'm not saying that they wouldn't have superiority. But to think that one plane could take down their entire fleet is absolutely moronic.

[Emasher]

It sounds like Hyperbole to me, but a small number of F-22s could probably take out the majority of North Korea's air force. The main problem would be the fact that the F-22s can't carry that much ammunition, a problem that, from what I understand is solved with the F-35, which, although different from the plane Stuwii mentioned, will probably take its place before a war with North Korea might happen (Not saying it will).

 

The thing is though, a War with North Korea couldn't be won just from the air anyway.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Emasher

[Aimless]

I believe the correct answer to the topic title is, "Make a massive bluff and hope it goes away."

[LostOverThere]

Wow, Nicktendo is fast becoming my favourite member.

[Diageo]

 

Don't think that just because you have a comfortable life, everything is great. It's not. We can only live like this because of the unimaginable sacrifice billions of people make every single day of their lives. I know given the choice, none of us would choose to live like that, so why should they? We are not better than them, we are all human. To turn a blind eye, is to be ignorant and in-human. Simple geography dictates which system we are born into, education and action can change it. Some of us are in a better position than others to use the opportunities given to us, instead of just ignoring injustice on a massive scale, yet we are so ingrained into our way of life that someone with views similar to mine is labelled 'fringe' or 'red terrorist' so really the fight for justice in the third world is already lost.

 

Do you actually do anything though?

Or just talk about it.

[Nicktendo]

There was this whole thread a month or so ago...