Election 2010 - Con/Lib Government

[The fish]

As for whether it's humane, like I said, foxes rip chickens and other animals to pieces. In fact Fox hunting fulfils a very basic need and desire to protect territory - as well as facilitate social bonds.

 

It is entirely beyond me as to how getting enjoyment out of ending a life is anything other than deserving of a visit from men in white coats.

[Ellmeister]

So how should the issue of the overpopulation of Foxes be sorted then?

 

Poison them so they die in a much more prolonged and painful way?

[Daft]

It is entirely beyond me as to how getting enjoyment out of ending a life is anything other than deserving of a visit from men in white coats.

 

Really? I suspect the reaction is biologically and socially based. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

[McPhee]

I'm not against the killing of foxes (if necessary). But you can't use that they kill for fun against them. As other animals do it.

 

I can't be arsed to get in a long debate as we've had this thread when it was first banned. I will say that I've pretty much agreed with what Sheikah has said on this matter.

 

I wasn't saying they should be killed because they kill for fun. I was making the point that them only killing for food isn't a defence because it simply isn't true.

 

Anyhow, isn't this a bit of a minor matter? Surely there's more important topics for the election?

[The fish]

 

Really? I suspect the reaction is biologically and socially based. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

 

Well, no, in the grand scheme of things, nothing is inherently right or wrong. As such, why are you even discussing voting?

 

I do understand it. It's because they think it's fun. I, however, think that finding that fun is a sign of having something wrong with you mentally.

[Sheikah]

 

Okay, I get artificial is not natural but you haven't defined what 'nature' is.

 

I don't see how you can say it is beyond nature. Don't other animals hunt in packs? Is it the method you have a problem with? That people use guns and trained dogs instead of running and using their bare hands?

 

Ok, my point regarding nature was merely to state that (as Ell before said) that dogs are not acting on nature; they've been trained by man (thus it's an artificial response).

 

Controlling other species to do your bidding is hardly natural. But I think you're getting a little too hung up on the natural aspect. I'm not against things that aren't natural. I'm a scientist. But living in the belief that this is all especially hunky dorey because it is natural is just escapism.

Is this really a problem with class? With 'toffs'?

Personally, I dislike upper class bigots. But that's just me.

 

As for whether it's humane, like I said, foxes rip chickens and other animals to pieces. In fact Fox hunting fulfils a very basic need and desire to protect territory - as well as facilitate social bonds.

 

Definition of humane:

 

"showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement ".

 

I'd be suprised if foxes were humane, given they aren't human.

 

Civilisation is completely defined by infrastructure and institutions. Not socially constructed morals.

 

So if a human being swats a fly, it's morally sound for someone to kill the person? Your one size fits all argument is pretty weak. Just as here; foxes may kill chickens (and in most cases to eat), but it's not right to kill them purely for entertainment purposes in a barbaric fashion.

[The fish]

Anyhow, isn't this a bit of a minor matter? Surely there's more important topics for the election?

 

Sadly, some people think the most important thing at the moment in this country is that they can't hunt foxes.

[Ashley]

Anyhow, isn't this a bit of a minor matter? Surely there's more important topics for the election?

 

I didn't expect it to get this far. But it is an election issue. Got another you wish to discuss? (not snark, even if it sounds like it)

 

Ok, my point regarding nature was merely to state that (as Ell before said) that dogs are not acting on nature; they've been trained by man (thus it's an artificial response).

 

But certain breeds are chosen for it because the hunting desire is within them. There's a reason fox hunting isn't done with papilons afterall. Yes, perhaps foxes aren't their prey of choice naturally, but as others have said we do a lot of unnatural things. Milk of a cow anyone?

[Sheikah]

But certain breeds are chosen for it because the hunting desire is within them. There's a reason fox hunting isn't done with papilons afterall. Yes, perhaps foxes aren't their prey of choice naturally, but as others have said we do a lot of unnatural things. Milk of a cow anyone?

But this is irrelevant; they are trained to kill in a certain way, and are placed in artificial situations.

 

Most of all, dogs themselves are pretty much the product of unnatural human directed breeding. Therefore to say that their instinct is natural is, well, pretty much nonsense.

 

It's about as natural as dairylea cheese. :p

[Daft]

Personally, I dislike upper class bigots. But that's just me.

 

Upper class bigots? Yeah. I hate middle class louts and lower class scum.

 

Oh, hold on. Sweeping generalisations there.

 

Definition of humane:

 

"showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement ".

 

I'd be suprised if foxes were humane, given they aren't human.

 

Yeah, I worded that wrong. My point was that foxes get ripped to pieces, chickens get ripped to pieces - it's the whole circle of life thing Elton John was talking about.

 

So if a human being swats a fly, it's morally sound for someone to kill the person? Your one size fits all argument is pretty weak. Just as here; foxes may kill chickens (and in most cases to eat), but it's not right to kill them purely for entertainment purposes in a barbaric fashion.

 

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I was disputing the definition of civilisation.

[Sheikah]

 

Upper class bigots? Yeah. I hate middle class louts and lower class scum.

 

Oh, hold on. Sweeping generalisations there.

 

Except I was talking about upper class people who did/want to foxhunt. Performing an activity of bigots makes one a bigot.

 

Yeah, I worded that wrong. My point was that foxes get ripped to pieces, chickens get ripped to pieces - it's the whole circle of life thing Elton John was talking about.

 

One size doesn't fit all. If someone goes and murders a baby, is that just the circle of life? Can you imagine a newspaper article titled 'Baby Murdered - The Circle of Life!' Clearly you can see that not everything is equal. Just as a fox that acts primitively mostly to fulfill its desire to continue living is in no way the same as pompous oafs, with supposedly far developed intelligence and understanding, cruelly taking down animals for sport.

 

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I was disputing the definition of civilisation.

 

Trace the quote back; it's perfectly valid. It's a point that Fish called you out on.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Sheikah

[Ellmeister]

So how should the issue of the overpopulation of Foxes be sorted then?

 

Poison them so they die in a much more prolonged and painful way?

 

Sheikah, provide an answer for my question as you seem so strongly against hunting.

[Sheikah]

Sheikah, provide an answer for my question as you seem so strongly against hunting.

Firstly, I wasn't aware there was a huge problem with chicken populations (presumably the problem with a high fox population). Have you seen how cheap chickens are? Have you seen the numbers of chickens pumped into supermarkets? To complain about foxes...well, as someone previously said, build better chicken coops.

 

What are you going to do about human overpopulation Ell? Sterilise yourself? Just wondering, since you seem very keen to protect overpopulation of species. Be the man, do the right thing.

[Daft]

Except I was talking about upper class people who did/want to foxhunt. Performing an activity of bigots makes one a bigot.

 

 

 

One size doesn't fit all. If someone goes and murders a baby, is that just the circle of life? Can you imagine a newspaper article titled 'Baby Murdered - The Circle of Life!' Clearly you can see that not everything is equal. Just as a fox that acts primitively mostly to fulfill its desire to continue living is in no way the same as pompous oafs, with supposedly far developed intelligence and understanding, cruelly taking down animals for sport.

 

 

 

Trace the quote back; it's perfectly valid. It's a point that Fish called you out on.

 

1) Ah right. I didn't read it like that. My bad.

 

2) No, I'm saying why do we need to be humane? Why can't superior human intelligence give us the right to treat animals like shit - or why doesn't it?

 

3) No, it isn't. His point was that civilisation is based on civility, which funnily enough it really isn't. It's based on systems and structures. Moral judgements are a product of that. There are examples of cultures that do have that 'eye for an eye' system - you steal, you get your hands chopped off.

 

 

I'm just fucking with you though. I'm not pro or against Fox hunting - it's not really an issue I come into contact with. I just like getting people's points of view.

[Sheikah]

 

2) No, I'm saying why do we need to be humane? Why can't superior human intelligence give us the right to treat animals like shit - or why doesn't it?

 

We can be inhumane, and many are. Hence why there are some people who want foxhunting, and some people who don't. Thankfully, most people probably fall under the latter category.

3) No, it isn't. His point was that civilisation is based on civility, which funnily enough it really isn't. It's based on systems and structures. Moral judgements are a product of that. There are examples of cultures that do have that 'eye for an eye' system - you steal, you get your hands chopped off.

 

 

Well I guess what I was trying to imply was that I was too lazy to go back to the start of the quote chain, which was Fish saying this:

 

"Part of what defines civilization is that punishment isn't the same as the crime."

I'm just fucking with you though. I'm not pro or against Fox hunting - it's not really an issue I come into contact with. I just like getting people's points of view.

 

Fair enough. Gives me something to do anyway, lol.

[Daft]

I hate these quote strings...make things so hard to follow sometimes.

[Ellmeister]

Firstly, I wasn't aware there was a huge problem with chicken populations (presumably the problem with a high fox population). Have you seen how cheap chickens are? Have you seen the numbers of chickens pumped into supermarkets? To complain about foxes...well, as someone previously said, build better chicken coops.

 

What are you going to do about human overpopulation Ell? Sterilise yourself? Just wondering, since you seem very keen to protect overpopulation of species. Be the man, do the right thing.

 

Seem very keen? By posting twice? I do worry about you sometimes.

 

Besides, I might be sterile already, either the condom, the pill or my baby maker isn't working may explainwhy my girlfriend isn't pregnant nor does she have a bazillion kids already. :p

 

I'll ignore the fact that was clearly a jibe just to rile me up. Whilst it did work, I'm too tired to attempt a witty response. I wouldn't manage to pull it off anyway, so I'll leave my dignity slightly intact.

[Sheikah]

Posting twice...what? I was just saying that you seemed a bit 'over-keen' to control the population of something which, frankly, is the last of the planet's worries!

 

Using a condom is not sterility, lol.

[Ellmeister]

I know using a condom isn't. I meant I could be sterile, but the mixture of other factor stops me from finding out. Like I said..way too tired=fail joke, least it wasn't as bad as a ReZ attempt.

 

And by posting twice about sorting out the population of foxes which I'm sure many do consider important in the countryside. Sure its not the biggest worry in the world. But neither is most of the stuff in a party's manifesto, so why aren't you arguing why they seem a bit keen to talk about anything other that the most important thing in the world?

 

Like I said earlier I don't really have an opinion as such since it doesn't affect me at all. I was just stating my opinion that it may actually be one of the more humane ways to kill the foxes as some people (not me Sheikah before you bring that up again >_>) do believe they are too overpopulated and causing a big nuisance.

[Coolness Bears]

If you want to get rid of a fox just use a cat. TRUE FACTS.

 

Cats would rip them apart.

[danny]

Well UKIP have have released there plans and if they got in to power it appears the UK would be exactly how i would like it to be more or less. But unfortunatly this is the real world and i have no idea how they would achieve these things.

 

Some key points:

 

Tax

 

Introduce 31% Flat Tax rate for all

Abolish National Insurance for Employees

Abolish Inheritance Tax

Cut Council Tax by scrapping EU laws, non jobs and political correctness

 

Defence

 

Boost the military budget by 40%...equip our troops properly

Increase the army by a quarter and double the Territorial Army

Look after our service personnel with better pay and conditions.

 

Economy

 

Create a million new manufacturing jobs

End means testing for pensions and benefits

Introduce Workfare community projects for those on benefits

 

Health

 

Introduce ‘franchise partners’ to run hospitals and healthcare services

Allow patients ‘Health Credit Vouchers’ for healthcare choice – NHS and private

Restore free dental check-ups and eye tests under the NHS

 

Immigration

 

End mass uncontrolled and unlimited immigration

End abuse of UK asylum system

Introduce work permits visas for limited periods

End support for multiculturalism and promote one, common British culture

 

Crime

 

Build the prisons we need

Double the number of police

Abolish the Crown Prosecution Service

Deport foreign criminals andextremists

 

Call the nut house if UKIP think this is possbible then they need a bed.

 

http://www.ukip.org/content/features/1498-downloadable-resources

[ipaul]

Well UKIP have have released there plans and if they got in to power it appears the UK would be exactly how i would like it to be more or less. But unfortunatly this is the real world and i have no idea how they would achieve these things.

 

Some key points:

 

Tax

 

Introduce 31% Flat Tax rate for all

Abolish National Insurance for Employees

Abolish Inheritance Tax

Cut Council Tax by scrapping EU laws, non jobs and political correctness

 

Defence

 

Boost the military budget by 40%...equip our troops properly

Increase the army by a quarter and double the Territorial Army

Look after our service personnel with better pay and conditions.

 

Economy

 

Create a million new manufacturing jobs

End means testing for pensions and benefits

Introduce Workfare community projects for those on benefits

 

Health

 

Introduce ‘franchise partners’ to run hospitals and healthcare services

Allow patients ‘Health Credit Vouchers’ for healthcare choice – NHS and private

Restore free dental check-ups and eye tests under the NHS

 

Immigration

 

End mass uncontrolled and unlimited immigration

End abuse of UK asylum system

Introduce work permits visas for limited periods

End support for multiculturalism and promote one, common British culture

 

Crime

 

Build the prisons we need

Double the number of police

Abolish the Crown Prosecution Service

Deport foreign criminals andextremists

 

Call the nut house if UKIP think this is possbible then they need a bed.

 

http://www.ukip.org/content/features/1498-downloadable-resources

 

Their tax plans are absolutely fucking insane. Why get rid of inheritance tax? Why make people earning 150k+ pay the same tax as those on 10k? It's so regressive.... Then after you've messed up the tax system, increase the budget of the military by 40%...sounds great.

 

How can you support that shit?

[Supergrunch]

Introduce 31% Flat Tax rate for all

End means testing for pensions and benefits

End support for multiculturalism and promote one, common British culture

Abolish the Crown Prosecution Service

These policies are just crazy. I don't get UKIP, they're such an odd mix of sensible and totally insane.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Also, ending support for multiculturalism? I just don't get nationalism ...

[ipaul]

These policies are just crazy. I don't get UKIP, they're such an odd mix of sensible and totally insane.

 

I missed that last one. That too is crazy...it's also my dad out of a job :P I should ask him what he thinks of UKIP...

 

-He thinks their all wankers. Surprise surprise.

Edited April 14, 2010 by ipaul