Great People

[Retro_Link]

^ Dramatic University Challenge tonight!

[MoogleViper]

He went to our school. [/factoid]

 

I assume not at the same time.

 

Maybe I'll end up hosting a game-show when I grow up?

 

Lord help us all.

[Goafer]

Wow, I followed him directly in life! Maybe I'll end up hosting a game-show when I grow up?

 

Stunberwang no doubt.

[chairdriver]

^ Dramatic University Challenge tonight!

 

Oh yeah, I was crying blood, because I had split allegiances. Famously the only Scottish person in my year, and everyone was like "John, who are you rooting for?"

 

And I love the fact the Sudden Death question was the only question I could do! Determinants, you're so easy!

 

I said as much to Jim Waterson and Chantal Hadley.

[killer kirby]

*Sigh* This is a Nintendo forum and there has yet to be one mention of one man, so I'll go and be the nerd...

[Ramar]

*Sigh* This is a Nintendo forum and there has yet to be one mention of one man, so I'll go and be the nerd...

 

Careful fella, his achievements are "meaningless" and "without purpose".

 

Who's going to remember a games designer in a 1000 years.

 

I jest. Can I be in the trion with Stuwii and Canand?

[killer kirby]

Careful fella, his achievements are "meaningless" and "without purpose".

 

Who's going to remember a games designer in a 1000 years.

 

I jest. Can I be in the trion with Stuwii and Canand?

 

Who is going to remember some of those soccer players that have just been listed on this thread? (Perhaps in your country but not in ours) just like this, nerds will most likely remember him while most casuals won't

[EEVILMURRAY]

The fact football brings people together instantly makes it make the world a better place.

Correct. In prison.

When I hear it all I think of is;

 

He's my second memory, the first, and obviously better is:

[Jonnas]

My two cents on the "football" debate.

 

1st cent: I don't think football is completely meaningless. Being the national pastime of 3 continents and a half is mighty impressive, has a lot of influence and does, in fact, bring people from different places together (jokes about hooligans and prisons are mostly British, I see). The reverence some people (read: countries) give football already make it important, and dismissing it as being just another sport is underestimating its influence.

And believe me, if you think the Brits are obssessed with football, you haven't seen the Brazilians, Argentinians and Italians talking about it.

 

2nd cent: That said, listing football players in a thread of "great people" is still silly, I think. They changed the way the sport is played, but not much else. The sport itself is influential, not the way it is played.

 

 

And back on-topic: Since I'm seeing a lot of pics of guys I don't know who they are (and I assume they're British), I'm just going to mention D.Afonso Henriques (for founding my country) and Eça de Queirós (for being an excellent writer).

 

Also, I don't think this man has been mentioned yet

 

 

Not only an excellent mathemathician, he was also a great thinker. There are plenty of great quotes from him (and I'm sure Dannyboy knows most of them). Here's a personal favourite:

 

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

[Oxigen_Waste]

Sorry dude, but the whole point of my posts was to explain how there weren't many people like Bergkamp. He is of a very, very special and limited breed. Yeah, there are many talented footballers out there, but Dennis is one of the few of his time who stand out from an exceptionally talented bunch. The British are obsessed with football, but so are the French, so are the Italians, so are the Brazilians and Argentinians. It is a big part of the culture now in these countries.

 

Indeed, it IS a big part of culture and it's indeed important and relevant in defining today's world. So is fashion. But neither of both is pertinent toward any advancement of any sort.

 

That's your opinion on it, but I think you're selling him very short there. Read Ramar's post about how he transformed Arsenal and read my post about him being nationally, internationally and criticially renowned. The fact that I'm talking so much about a player who played for a big rival team says it all.

 

It's not so much my opinion (as I had no opinion on him whatsoever, this is the first I've even heard of him) as it is what I've read about him in 3 different articles about his career.

 

I made comparisons about the stadium being a Colosseum, because the players are our modern day warriors. But, I also made comparisons with dancing, and that is essentially what Pele brought to the sport. He played with a rhythm and movement that was not seen at that time. He had skill, grace, technique, confidence, charisma. He was expressive with the way he moved with the ball. Bergkamp also does this, but his expression is the way he moves the ball itself. The way he controls it, the way he can spot a perfect pass about a minute or so before he actually needs to play that pass.

 

Yes, I get it, he was one of the best of his time! Still, his contributions to the world were as limited as Earl Anthony's! (Earl was a great 1980's bowler, if you're wondering) The only difference between him and Bergkamp is that more people are aware of Bergkamp's existance. They both played their respective sport (if you consider Bowling a sport) with extreme finesse, but that's about it for their actual impact on the world outside of sports. If that makes them "great", I can go ahead and post a picture of Fatal1ty or Daigo Umehara for being fantastic gamers. Because their contributions to the world are pretty much the same as Bergkamp's... the only difference is in the number of people who are aware of them.

 

Think of it like a game of chess, his footballing brain was so much quicker than almost anyone in the world. I say almost anyone because the only players I could compare him with are Zidane and Paul Scholes, but even then they're all different. They're expressive, but in different ways. I have never ever seen a better Volleyer of the ball than Scholes, and his expression is very much like a hunter preparing his arrows for the kill. He would line himself up (on the edge of the box), position himself in exactly the right place at exactly the right time, and would always find himself in acres of space.

 

Same as above.

 

As for the Chess thing... I do love Chess, but outside of being the best chess player ever, what's actually great about Kasparov? What did he do to push the world forward? IT'S JUST A GAME, Jimbo!!!!

 

Some of these legends were also very big leaders on the pitch. What was expressive was how they showed their passion for the game. Their passion for the fans. Seeing Gary Neville celebrate in front of our arch rival's fans is evidence of this, and again that links in to the tribal element of the sport. He celebrated because winning against that particular opposition means something that much more. Again, that's where the idea of Gladiators and a Colosseum comes into it...it sometimes is very much a warzone. Its fierce, and the most passionate sport on the planet.

 

Ok, now you've completely lost it. Most passionate since when? They're all equally passionate! Stop speaking from the heart and use your head, Flink-o! Don't be biased.

 

That's not entirely true. What about getting recognition from the media, or getting recognition from earlier players. Look at Pele's 100 list and there are so many greats there.

 

The media covers anything that people will get into. Don't use the media as a validation tool, because by that logic, Paris Hilton would also be great and truly great people would be nobodies. The only reason the media gives it such attention is because there's so many people who are into it!

And the Pele and earlier players thing, well, it's obvious... He was a player, so were all the others, they're only in it because they want to! They ARE fans.

 

Thank you for acknowleding that they are geniuses.

But, I disagree with what you're saying about the impact being zero. How many people to this very day talk about that Van Basten Volley:

 

 

How many people still talk about the Hand of God? How many Germans are still pissed off with the way that England won the 1966 World Cup? Football history is also important History. Very important. It marks the successes of a nation, it shows what superb athletes, sportspeople and stars that each country has produced. It shows what humans can accomplish if they put their mind to it and if they persevere hard enough. During the 1999 Champions League Final, my initial thought was what a great accomplishment this is, for one team to win so many honours in one season and to rightfully earn their place in history.

 

You seem to be confusing mass appeal with integral greatness. Many people do/make/say/think many things about many subjects, but very few of those subjects are actually worth anything. We humans waste 95% of our time jabberin' about nonsense! Football is fun, and people get involved with it, we get that. But this isn't a popularity contest!

 

And what you said about preserverance and commitment is the mustard of your doom, because that's all the more reason they aren't that "great" in this sense of the word! Look at Cristiano Ronaldo... when he was a kid he gave up on having a life so he could become one the best players in the world. All his talent was born from how hard he worked... Ultimately, any one us, assuming we're healthy enough, could be Cristiano Ronaldo and could do what he does, all we would have to do would be starting our lives out from scratch and have his determination and work hard every single day of our lives into making that goal a reality and we'd get there in the end. But no matter how hard you work or try, you'll never be like Einstein, even if you could start your life over, no matter how hard you worked and tried, you would never, or better yet, could never, be like him... or Bohr or Newton or Copernicus etc etc etc etc. They are truly unique! Their influence is such that the way we live our life revolves around these key findings/achievemensts/creations by these individuals.

 

That's not to say that Ronaldo or Bergkamp or whoever else don't deserve to be respected or are in anyway inferior, but there's also the fact that their achievements are completely meaningless unless you actually care about football.

 

Also, to all those who don't care about football, I really am sorry for hogging this thread.

You should see me watching it...I love it. Every second of it.

 

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we "love" you.

 

That is why I agreed with Ramar's original post. Anyone who knows what they're talking about will know that Bergkamp has helped change the English (and Worldwide, for that matter) perception of football. He was a magician with the ball. He could literally do everything that could be done, and more. For a player to possess all of what he had is more than enough to consider him a legend of the game. What's more, when he played, you could feel his energy, and you were always watching something special. Some players play for the fame, but he played for his heart and his head.

 

Take no offense, but what I keep reading and have been told by several friends last night is that while he is good, you english totally blow him out of proportion. And that's from multiple sources, always the same thing. We portuguese do the same with Eusébio.

 

 

Careful fella, his achievements are "meaningless" and "without purpose".

 

Who's going to remember a games designer in a 1000 years.

 

I jest. Can I be in the trion with Stuwii and Canand?

 

I know you're joking, but still I'll just add my two cents. Miyamoto pretty much created modern gaming and established it as a form of artistic expression (although it's very seldomly used as such, sadly). You know, actual expression, not kicking around balls. Ouch.

 

Still, he might be one of the very few game developers who should actually be considered for the position of "great". Lollers.

 

The fact football brings people together instantly makes it make the world a better place.

 

And then it creates conflicts. It's pretty much like religions. It does have it's good points, but the bad far outweighs the good.

 

If people just fucked more, they'd get the same happiness and much less conflict.

 

 

The reverence some people (read: countries) give football already make it important, and dismissing it as being just another sport is underestimating its influence.

 

It IS important. But it's also meaningless and purposeless. It's just a big cash cow, to be honest. And in the end it IS just another sport. Basketball or Rugby could just as easily have been the world's most popular sport... it was just chance.

 

D.Afonso Henriques

 

He was more important than great. His deeds were fairly standard for the time. "Get land!!!!!" And he did.

 

Must I procrastinate everything on this thread?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

 

Since he mentioned the Portuguese, I guess I should mention Vergílio Ferreira, Fernando Pessoa and Ãlvaro Cunhal (pelo menos até à revolução).

[Roostophe]

Correct. In prison.

 

Dude, the 1980's rang, they want your views back.

 

I'm just going to mention D.Afonso Henriques (for founding my country)..

 

There's a football stadium named after him. :wink:

 

 

In my opinion (always an important thing to note), there's one person who is a legend and a mastermind in world football, and he never even kicked a ball.

 

His name was William McGregor. It was his idea for football teams in England to get together and play in a round-robin league tournament every year. This was the first organised football league in the world. Almost every country has one of these now. That's a pretty big impact on culture and society if you ask me.

 

 

Speaking of 'glorified sportsmen', what are people's views on Muhammad Ali? His name gets thrown around when it comes to a Great Person as well as a Great Sportsperson.

[Emasher]

I mean, the fact that 6 people actually thanked Emashers post questioning Ramar's choice was not on, in my opinion. Not only that, but Oxy's post just did it for me and I felt compelled to reply.

 

Actually, in that post, I wasn't questioning weather a football player should be considered great, I was asking him to explain why that specific footballer was great. There's no point of having a thread like this if we just post pictures and names, there needs to be some form of discussion. I do think that while football players have contributed a great deal to culture (and really this goes for all popular sports, not just football), they haven't contributed as much as someone who came up with some sort of idea, or theory, ect. that completely changed the way we live. For instance, Leonardo Da Vinci wasn't just a great painter, he came up with ideas for technology that wasn't even possible until the last century. But questioning the football player's inclusion in this thread wasn't at all the main motive of the post I made before.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Speaking of 'glorified sportsmen', what are people's views on Muhammad Ali? His name gets thrown around when it comes to a Great Person as well as a Great Sportsperson.

 

Well, supposedly he is the pinnacle of pugilism. Don't really know, though.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Indeed, it IS a big part of culture and it's indeed important and relevant in defining today's world. So is fashion. But neither of both is pertinent toward any advancement of any sort. [/Quote]

 

It depends what you mean by "advancement." There are big leaders in fashion who have helped with progression there (within that area), and its the same with sport, art, music, etc.

 

It's not so much my opinion (as I had no opinion on him whatsoever, this is the first I've even heard of him) as it is what I've read about him in 3 different articles about his career.

 

Fair play, but you shouldn't always believe what you read.

 

Yes, I get it, he was one of the best of his time! Still, his contributions to the world were as limited as Earl Anthony's! (Earl was a great 1980's bowler, if you're wondering) The only difference between him and Bergkamp is that more people are aware of Bergkamp's existance. They both played their respective sport (if you consider Bowling a sport) with extreme finesse, but that's about it for their actual impact on the world outside of sports. If that makes them "great", I can go ahead and post a picture of Fatal1ty or Daigo Umehara for being fantastic gamers. Because their contributions to the world are pretty much the same as Bergkamp's... the only difference is in the number of people who are aware of them.

 

More people are aware of Bergkamp because of the fact that he played big teams in multiple countries. It's not just about the way he played the sport, but the trophies, medals and titles that he won. Do you think that those people you mentioned are great people? If you do, then that is your own opinion, so cool. What you also have to consider is that people idolise the "greats" in sport or music or art, and they may not do something that will technically "save the world" such as create a miracle medicine, but they inspire others to also achieve greatness. That is what I like about people such as this, they choose a route and they excel at it, through hardwork, determination and stiff competition. When I look at these people, it also makes me want to achieve greatness in what I do. Therefore I think they do change the world, in that sense.

 

 

As for the Chess thing... I do love Chess, but outside of being the best chess player ever, what's actually great about Kasparov? What did he do to push the world forward? IT'S JUST A GAME, Jimbo!!!!

 

I think my comment above covers this part, too.

 

Ok, now you've completely lost it. Most passionate since when? They're all equally passionate! Stop speaking from the heart and use your head, Flink-o! Don't be biased.

 

Do you mean that all Sport is equally passionate? Because I would disagree with that. Of course, it depends on the fans, rivalries, particular teams and such, but I still believe it's the most passionate one on the planet.

 

The media covers anything that people will get into. Don't use the media as a validation tool, because by that logic, Paris Hilton would also be great and truly great people would be nobodies. The only reason the media gives it such attention is because there's so many people who are into it!

And the Pele and earlier players thing, well, it's obvious... He was a player, so were all the others, they're only in it because they want to! They ARE fans.

 

I agree that the media put a spin on various things. What I was getting at was that particular players who get recognition from many places, be it from people within the sport and people outside of it, too. To get recognition from all areas is impressive, no?

Also, have you stopped to think why so many people are into it? I know most people who disagree with footballers being called "great people" in this thread are anti-football. Chair's earlier outburst covered that. Football is loved for a reason.

Pele was a bit more than a fan though, wasn't he? He was a leading figure in that field. So, to have a leading figure in any field tell you that you are one of the greatest must feel really fucking good, no?

 

You seem to be confusing mass appeal with integral greatness. Many people do/make/say/think many things about many subjects, but very few of those subjects are actually worth anything. We humans waste 95% of our time jabberin' about nonsense! Football is fun, and people get involved with it, we get that. But this isn't a popularity contest!

 

Surely it's down to the individuals to decide whether something is worth talking about. In fact, by your argument, everything is pointless. I could just as easily say "there's no point talking about anything because we'll die eventually, everyone will die."

 

And what you said about preserverance and commitment is the mustard of your doom, because that's all the more reason they aren't that "great" in this sense of the word! Look at Cristiano Ronaldo... when he was a kid he gave up on having a life so he could become one the best players in the world. All his talent was born from how hard he worked... Ultimately, any one us, assuming we're healthy enough, could be Cristiano Ronaldo and could do what he does, all we would have to do would be starting our lives out from scratch and have his determination and work hard every single day of our lives into making that goal a reality and we'd get there in the end.

 

I never ever call anybody wrong on this forum, but I think you are wrong with what you are saying there. Once again, you are undervalueing what it takes to be a footballer, or a World Class footballer like Cristiano is. What about players who have been around longer than Ronaldo, trained just as much, yet aren't in the same category (not even the same planet as him)?

Also, it's so easy to say "if I work hard, start my life from scratch, and work damn hard, I can be just as good as Ronaldo" but there's a difference between thinking that and actually doing that. Again, I have respect for these players because they have followed their dreams and they have worked hard to get there. But, football isn't about purely working hard. There are thousands upon thousands of players who have worked hard but lacked that natural ability to become greats. Read back to my argument about how vision and technique are important, and how it is so rare to have players that have both. Some players are born with this gift, Zidane certainly was.

 

But no matter how hard you work or try, you'll never be like Einstein, even if you could start your life over, no matter how hard you worked and tried, you would never, or better yet, could never, be like him... or Bohr or Newton or Copernicus etc etc etc etc. They are truly unique! Their influence is such that the way we live our life revolves around these key findings/achievemensts/creations by these individuals.

 

I'm a bit shocked you actually posted that first part, because the exact same thing implies to footballers. I'm not being stupid, and I do understand the value that these individuals have had on life. But, everybody is unique. There won't be another Newton because Newton has come, left his mark and gone. The same thing applies with footballers. They have left their mark in different ways, but they have left their mark in different ways. Their names are in the history books, their names are on trophies, and they are passed down from generation to generation as part of legends.

 

That's not to say that Ronaldo or Bergkamp or whoever else don't deserve to be respected or are in anyway inferior, but there's also the fact that their achievements are completely meaningless unless you actually care about football.

 

That part is the important part for me. It's important because I believe that you weren't respecting these people, and in your initial post (at least in my opinion anyway) you were implying that they were inferior. What is inferior about a man or woman following their dreams, working hard and becoming the best in their field?

 

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we "love" you.

 

I love you too, but you're a pain in the arse sometimes.

 

Take no offense, but what I keep reading and have been told by several friends last night is that while he is good, you english totally blow him out of proportion. And that's from multiple sources, always the same thing. We portuguese do the same with Eusébio.

 

 

Eusebio was great, though...What you need to realise is that he has changed the perception of football in this country. Before he came, Arsenal were pretty Arse to watch. (sorry Ramar). But, he bought flare to the club, and he bought an Un-English feel to the game, which the fans really took to. That's why he is so talked about in this country. Ask your friends who they consider to be better, and I'm interested.

 

I should stop talking about football now. I will, I promise.

[Eenuh]

I should stop talking about football now. I will, I promise.

 

You won't. You never will.

[Daft]

Standing on the shoulders of giants.

Nanos gigantium humeris insidentes (Thanks Wiki)

 

Bergkamp doesn't fill this criteria and thus is not "great", in my opinion.

[Supergrunch]

Do you mean that all Sport is equally passionate? Because I would disagree with that.

 

Basically Nakano Yasuhiro (black) makes a terrible messup, losing about a third of the stones on the board thanks to a newbie mistake. The commentators are saying:

 

Announcer: Black, 6-10.

Man: Huh?

Woman: *gasp*

Man: What? What?!

Woman: It's a mistak-

Man: No, no, no...

Woman: God, that was a messup...

Man: Argh...

Announcer: White, 4-11.

Woman: This is terrible...

Man: No...

Woman: *confused noise between shock and laughter*

Man: [not sure of this translation] This is unprecedented...

Woman: *exasperated noise*

 

Then Yasuhiro resigns by placing the stones on the board. Just goes to show nobody is perfect, not even top level pros...

 

Seriously though, people get pretty passionate about most things they're into. Although I wouldn't really consider go a sport, how about the ear reddening game? Shusaku is arguably great, although not of the magnitude of some people in this thread.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Supergrunch

[Fierce_LiNk]

You won't. You never will.

 

I am trying to change my ways. Kinda.

 

Standing on the shoulders of giants.

Nanos gigantium humeris insidentes (Thanks Wiki)

 

Bergkamp doesn't fill this criteria and thus is not "great", in my opinion.

 

You're born to say that, being a Chelsea fan.

 

Hehe.

 

 

 

Seriously though, people get pretty passionate about most things they're into. Although I wouldn't really consider go a sport, how about the ear reddening game? Shusaku is arguably great, although not of the magnitude of some people in this thread.

 

The video had me on the edge of my seat.

 

Ok, I am leaving this thread now. Must behave self.

[Daft]

You're born to say that, being a Chelsea fan.

 

Hehe.

 

I think the motto at the Bridge is 'Standing on a mountain of cash.'

[Jonnas]

There's a football stadium named after him. :wink:

 

Which means he's bigger than football. HA!

 

On all seriousness, I highly doubt it could happen the other way around (a museum/political building/etc. being named after a football player).

 

He was more important than great. His deeds were fairly standard for the time. "Get land!!!!!" And he did.

 

Ok, I may have been biased on that one

[Raining_again]

Good ol' George Best will be remembered in this country, perhaps for all of the wrong reasons. And because they named belfast city airport after him

[Sec]

Frank Whittle

 

 

Creation of the modern jet engine

[EEVILMURRAY]

Was that game Go?

Dude, the 1980's rang, they want your views back.

Nah.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

and I'm sure Dannyboy knows most of them

You are correct, sir. You've seen my Facebook quotations page?

[Jonnas]

You are correct, sir. You've seen my Facebook quotations page?

 

Actually, you had mentioned in a thread some time ago that Einstein quotes were your favourites.

What can I say? You're a very memorable fellow