2D or not 2D that is the question...

[tapedeck]

(Bold = for you quick readers)

 

It's no secret a lot of us love 2D games and remember the defining moment that 2D platforming was.

 

When Mario Bros. on the NES came to town, 2D platformers went into overdrive and we've seen many classics from Mario and co. to Sonic to countless movie/cartoon spin-offs. Alien3 on the SNES would be an FPS these days and the genre was that good that Disney games stuck firmly with 2D platforming right into the 32-Bit era. Yet as the 16bit platform hung onto it's 2D platformer roots with the astounding DKC trilogy, when the N64 came to town everything suddenly had to be 3D.

 

Mario 64 changed the gaming landscape forever and home consoles never saw 2D platforming take the limelight again.

 

Thankfully there have been instances where the old game has popped up but they were never given the same development time as in the 8/16bit days. The power of modern day handhelds enabled that 16bit template to be applied all over again (with varying success and ports ahoy!). Yet when the GBA era flew over we found our handhelds at a 3D stage - where developers and gamers are hankering for 3D experiences on the go in an aim to mimic popular home console experiences.

 

As much as the genre has actually seen a rebirth on the DS, the genre has usually included a mish-mash of touch-screen control. Credit to Nintendo when they've brought us throwback titles like NSMB or (to a greater degree) Yoshi's Island 2 where touch-screen controls aren't the focus of the platforming and primarily lie in mini-games. I sometimes wonder if the DS is the ultimate-balanced handheld as it treads a fine line of 3D and 2D titles.

 

So where does the future of 2D platforming lie? Titles such as Braid/Megaman 9 have shown that the genre can still exist. But I'd like to see 2D without a hook/gimmick. Time travel for Braid? Retro graphics for MM9, Bongos for DK: Jungle Beat, Puzzles for Henry Hatsworth? Emotions for Peach? Don't get me wrong, some of these aspects are sublime (*Braid*) but this old gamer just wants a pure 2D experience available on store shelves. Maybe the future is via DLC. Perhaps we will see some old-school PURE 2D games on Wiiware? It was good to see the service launch with Lostwinds - a 2D platform/puzzle hybrid.

 

Perhaps the purest form of 2D platforming has been from a character who never seems to get a good home console game these days (because it's 3D) - Sonic.

Throw out the tacked on map events/minigames and what you essentially have is a dual-screen 2D platformer at its purest. More please!

As I mentioned previously, NSMB was also the closest gaming had come to those 16bit platforming days of old yet now with a more robust character moveset which was a tool for getting through.

 

As good as retro 2D is, I thought it would have taken off more by now. Megaman 9 and (to a degree) NSMB 'should' have opened the floodgates.

Seemingly not.

Perhaps this shows that devs aren't keen to embrace an age-old form of gameplay. Maybe it's like taking flight games back to vertical/horizontal planes? Perhaps they are just stubborn? Maybe gamers want more? Maybe the genre is dead?

 

Some questions:

 

Where do you see 2D gaming going?

Does it need a hook/gimmick?

Can old fashioned platformers still exist?

Is 2D gaming poor?

Is Wiiware a good ground for 2D?

 

2D...Thoughts as ever : peace:

(I'm off to play DKC1-3/Sonic1-3 and Super Mario World on the VC...)

[Strange Cookie]

Now there is a most interesting question.

 

There will always be a special place in my gaming heart for 2D-games, whether it be 2D-gameplay or just 2D-graphics. I'm a NES/SNES-kid, brought up in the Golden Years of 2D-platforming, so I'm a bit biased ofcourse. Cue nostalgic ranting.

 

One thing that still appeals to me about 2D-gaming, is it's cheer simplicity. Not to say it's easy. Metal Slug and Contra can attest to that, but it's not as difficult to grasp. Left: go left. Right: go right. in a 3D-environment, it's not always so clear-cut or precise. I wouldn't want to say Mario 64 of Galaxy don't control well, but if I have to choose between those two and SMB3 or SMW, I know who has my preference.

 

Then there is just the unadultered charm that, up to this day, only 2D-graphics can provide. No matter how well a 3D-Wario is animated, It'll never hold a candly to the charm of Wario Land: Shake Dimension. Granted, animators curse if they have to draw every single animation by hand, but that's how a labour of love is done. Lazy artists...

 

One of the main preconceptions about 2D-gaming, it that it's reached it's limits with the SFIII. You only have to look at some recent and upcoming products to see there is still room for improvement. Can one look at Odin Sphere, GrimGrimoire or Muramasa without gasping for breath? Who isn't impressed with the promise of a hand-drawn HD-King of Fighters? And which one has the most charm visual-wise: Wario World or Wario Land: Shake Dimension?

 

I'm not saying 3D-gaming and graphics are a bad thing. Who would rather play Halo Zero (Don't know that one? Google it) than Halo 3? But I most definitely agree that 2D is somehow frowned upon. Sure, it's more limited in freedom (it's missing one dimension after all), but that hasn't stopped Metroid and Castlevania from bringing some 2D-gems that still are held in high regard these days.

 

Even with 3D-graphics, there are still games that are 2D in nature. Just look at SFIV: excellent 3D-graphics and perfect 2D-controls.

 

One of the problems is that most people these days associate 2D-games with, pardon my rudeness, plain-ass crap mobile-phone games.

 

In short: 3D is here to stay, and we're very happy about that. Some games just can't be done in 2D, so don't even bother. But that idea goes both ways: some things just don't work in 3D, and it's not a shame to make something 2D. If only Sonic Team would learn...

 

Point is: 2D gaming is almost a genre in itself: 2D-fighting, 2D-platforming, and I feel it can stand tall next to it's 3D-brethren.

 

Now this is coming from an nostalgic old fool. Younger kids who had their first taste of gaming on the Playstation often don't know the delights of 2D-gaming. I suppose they get the same feeling I get when someone is going on about how great the Atari 2800 was and how Pitfall is the greatest game ever. Must be a generation thing. Now get off my lawn and comb that hair!

Edited April 28, 2009 by Strange Cookie

[Fierce_LiNk]

I liked your point TeeDee about the DS being the perfect breeding ground for 2D and 3D. The handheld itself offers the user all these different options (with the screens, touchscreen, wifi) yet the simple option of having games in either 2D or 3D seems to have been one which has yet to be capitalised on.

 

As a whole, I think games as a whole on Nintendo systems have sometimes been trying too hard to be ambitious, and fail on simple fundamental levels. Take Metroid Prime: Hunters, it had pretty good visuals for the handheld, it offered wi-fi multiplayer, yet many didn't find it fun to play. It just seemed to lack the charm of its home console counterparts which made the series to loved in the first place.

 

I'd like developers once in a while to go back and play their games, and ask themselves "Is This Fun?" The best games that I've enjoyed this generation have been the simple ones. de Blob is something which I think could only be achieved in 3D, as you need that roaming aspect. But, take something like Muramasa, I can't really see that being 3D, as I'm just too used to seeing it in 2D now.

 

Now, the argument about Sonic goes deeper than the fact that it is simply in 3D. Personally, I think there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Let's go back to 1996, and let's count the Mario home consoles game since then. We've had Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, and Super Mario Galaxy. So, three games from 1996 to 2007. He has been involved in countless other games, such as the Mario Party, Mario Kart and the Super Paper Mario series, but I count each of these separately. Super Paper Mario is different to the main Mario series.

 

Let's look at Sonic. Sonic Adventure in 1999, then Adventure 2 in 2001, and then Sonic Heroes in 2003. There's also Shadow the Hedgehog in 2005, but I don't know if that should be counted.

 

But then, there's Sonic the Hedgehog for the 360/PS3 in 2006, Sonic and the Secret Rings for the Wii in 2007, and then Sonic Unleashed, and Sonic and the Black Knight, which are both fairly recent.

 

So, since 1999, there have been at least 7 3D Sonic games on home console systems. There are more games, in the form of Sonic Riders and such, but I'm really looking at the main series.

 

Personally, I find that shocking. So, now I'm starting to look beyond the 3D design of the Sonic games, and I'm starting to question whether Sega actually put any effort into these games. It roughly averages to a new Sonic game ever 1 and a half to 2 years.

 

Now, what if they held back and refined these games before releasing? Over the years, the games have received mixed views, with some loving and others loathing these games, for many different reasons. "The camera sucks," "It's no fun," "It plays like hepatitis type C." But, another factor is that Sega are just not learning from their mistakes. They keep pushing Sonic through 3D on the home systems, maybe to try and still compete with Mario, I don't know. But, they obviously think it'll work. However, at this rate, they'll fail just a little more each time.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Fierce_LiNk

[darksnowman]

Great thread!

 

Its kind of annoying to think that 2D gaming may well have had its day. As you say, 2D platformers have been scarce since the N64 appeared on the scene, with anything appearing in the genre being a novelty. I kind of thought I would be a stick in the mud too but I do like the way the DS and WiiWare have reinvigorated 2D gaming. Having LostWinds with its unique controls as well as things like Henry Hatsworth with its blend of platforming and puzzling have done wonders to make the games feel fresh. Its good to have classic goodness with a new twist added.

 

A new entry in the DKC series would need to be handled with care. I don't know if it should have any gimmicks or if they should just focus on the purity traditional (old skool!) controls.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Heh, a 2D Donkey Kong in any form would be greatly appreciated, I think.

 

Only three/four replies to this, though. It's been awfully quiet here this week.

[Pit-Jr]

This topic enrages me. For instance, Konami has thoroughly proven that Castlevania sucks ass in 3D and sells so much more in 2D, so logically they waste the time and money turning it into a generic 3D fighter.

 

And i can just hear the PR babble from Nintendo, who could afford to purchase a small country, if someone requested a new 2D SMB or Metroid on the Wii :''We feel that that type of game is better suited to a handheld machine'' Yeah whatever, fuck off!

[killer kirby]

 

I can only hope Nintendo bring out more games like this with just different characters rather then Wario

[Hero-of-Time]

Having played a couple of 2D gems as of late ( Super Princess Peach & Soul Bubbles ) I think the genre is far from dead when it comes to the handheld market. Sure the genre isn't a big deal to most developers now, especially when it comes to console gaming, but when they do take the time and effort to make a 2D platformer it really shows.

 

*points to killer kirbys post*

 

Im personally a big fan of 2D platformers as I grew up with them as a kid with this in mind im really looking forward to Kolona. Yeah I know it has a slight hint of 3D in it, but the way the market is I will take what I can get

[ReZourceman]

2D Platforming is probably my favourite genre. It is criminally under....done. Especially on the DS. And I don't want gimmicks! Like touch screen controls. As long as it has good gameplay and nice features I'm there. I hate how its being forgotten as a genre.

 

Henry Hatsworth proves theres life in the tiger yet though.

[tapedeck]

Must say I've been enjoying the 2D offerings seen on the DS.

I just feel that developers have left the genre behind. A real shame. If you make a good game with engaging gameplay and mechanics which are deeper than they appear to be and can be mastered, then a 2D game can be exquisite. The classics all share these traits. Secrets aplenty, gameplay which gets progressively harder and challenges which push the characters moveset to the maximum. These factors are all in place in 3D titles yet the action is somewhat slower due to the 3D plain. IMO, the only time 2D gaming let-up was if you stopped the character. Rarely would an enemy chase you in 2D aswell. They'd stick to that ledge/jumping pattern no matter what!

 

I guess if more classics were reinvented I'd like to see them stick to their old design choices. There was nothing wrong with them. I enjoyed Sonic, Mario, Donkey Kong, Disney Liscenced games as much as the next guy back in the day. I didn't need to move on, the developers moved on and my favourite genre was left behind.

More 2D titles would be great but it still comes down to the ability of the developer.

 

Yoshi's Island 2 is a good example. The original was a classic due to many, many factors. The sequel wasn't developed by Shigsy and co. and, although good it wasn't as good as the original. The same with these Disney platformers, they are being made by smaller companies without the experience of, say, Capcom, Virgin, Konami. I still hanker for 2D games. I just know that, when they are made, the format is seen as a second rate form in comparison to 3D.

 

A shame really as the genre can still be fantastic. (Just ask Henry Hatsworth!)

[mcj metroid]

People are still graphically orientated.. Even nintendo fans. Zelda: four swords plus was known to be the worst selling zelda title of all time.. You have to blame the graphics here because the title was quality..

 

I personally would LOVE a 2d console sonic game but think about who the sonic games are aiming at since well ever.... sonic was never popular in japan so he's aiming at american kids..

You really think after all your time on xbox live that most of this kids don't care about graphics? That is why the closest you will get is sonic unleashed.

 

2d games are just better for on-the-go.. They have a much faster pace and that IS portable gaming after all.

 

 

I guess if more classics were reinvented I'd like to see them stick to their old design choices. There was nothing wrong with them. I enjoyed Sonic, Mario, Donkey Kong, Disney Liscenced games as much as the next guy back in the day. I didn't need to move on, the developers moved on and my favourite genre was left behind.

More 2D titles would be great but it still comes down to the ability of the developer.

 

Yoshi's Island 2 is a good example. The original was a classic due to many, many factors. The sequel wasn't developed by Shigsy and co. and, although good it wasn't as good as the original. The same with these Disney platformers, they are being made by smaller companies without the experience of, say, Capcom, Virgin, Konami. I still hanker for 2D games. I just know that, when they are made, the format is seen as a second rate form in comparison to 3D.

 

A shame really as the genre can still be fantastic. (Just ask Henry Hatsworth!)

 

2d was always going to go though.. just like hand-drawn animation in animated movies

 

I Still prefer 2d to be honest due to the faster pace.. Super metroid is better than any prime.

Castlevania is WAY better in 2d,

Sonic 3 better than any other sonic.

 

3d is awesome but I for one am suprised we even have as much 2d as it is. You seem suprised we don't have more.

[Coolness Bears]

2D platforming is great but it is dying!

 

I think the fact that people are making Braid and Megaman 9 is a good sign! even more so that they were very much warmly recieved. It shows there is definately a market out there for 2D games. I know I still love them.

 

They can still look as godly as any 3D designed game as well graphically and to me they have more charm! Just look at Warioland Shake and Muramasa.

 

I think the DS lends itself well to reviving the 2D genre as platformers are good for quick bursts of play and it is much easier to just pause and play while on the move! However it is criminally underused for this purpose and often the focus is on providing shoddy 3D graphics which lack charisma.

 

Take a look at Metroid Prime Hunters. Graphically impressive for the DS to pull it off but at the expense of fun in my opinion!

 

They should have created it in 2D, vastly superior. Super Metroid is still one of the greatest games ever made! I just want a new 2D Metroid...

 

Also the VC on the Wii and such offering up the classic sonic/Donkey Kong/Super Mario games helps keep 2D on the radar as everyone remembers how good they are and gets new people interested at the same time.

 

As for a gimmick/hook I don't feel it needs one if the platforming is solid and fresh such as New Super Mario Bros, who got it right (even though that is 3D..sort of) However it does help as they have been out for many years and many 2D games have been produced and some of the most quality games have been 2D platformers and so to stick out of the crowd a hook could definately help to get people interested such as Hatsworth which is a good direction to take, It is a quirky experience that has that Retro platforming charm to it!

 

There are definately many steps in the right direction. I don't think they will be going down just yet!

[stallion]

Games like New Super Mario Bros on the DS are keeping 2D gaming alive and well. It's fun, easy to pick up and play and can be enjoyed by all. There will always be a place for 2D gaming and it's been pulled into the next generation by the DS.

I can always see 2D gaming existing even if it's just through demand of a retro feel but as with NSMB it has shown that 2D gaming still has a few surprises for us all.

[Grazza]

I'm a big fan of certain 2D games, and it goes way beyond nostalgia. I prefer any RPG or adventure in 3D, for immersion, but anything based around jumping is best when kept on a 2D plane and viewed from the side.

 

I consider the "SNES-quality" Metroids leaps and bounds ahead of Metroid Prime and whilst I love how they brought Mario into 3D, I still think Super Mario World is in some ways the best.

 

2D games certainly don't need gimmicks. Look how successful the relatively gimmick-free New Super Mario Bros on the DS was. You can also apply 2D to other styles like Metroid and action-RPGs like Wonder Boy III/Wonder Boy in Monster World - two great games on the Master System and Megadrive - much better than Zelda II, in my opinion (I know I said I liked the immersion of 3D, but they involved jumping).

 

What I don't understand is the idea 2D games are low-tech. Surely 2D games need as much graphical power as 3D?

 

And this is another thing: why keep them on NES/SNES engines? I used to dream about machines that could run full, platform/adventure-type games using Street Fighter III-quality sprites. Then polygons took over and it never happened.

 

This may be controversial, but I don't love the hand-drawn style like in Wario Land: the Shake Dimension (which I own, by the way) and the forthcoming Boy & His Blob remake. Hand-drawn, 2.5D or 2D sprites, beggars can't be choosers, but I'd love to see Metroid V one day with a proper, beefed-up Samus sprite.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Grazza