Death Penalty

[Daft]

Some people may be beyond help. Some people don't feel like, or even want to explain themselves. There isn't much point keeping these people alive if they're going to rot away in prison for the rest of their lives with no chance of parole.

 

True, some people may be beyond help but we could use these people to identify the problems that lead to such acts. Why do these people do what they do? Ok, some might be f*cked in the head but that can't be true for everyone.

 

Meh, anyone could say that about any band so it really doesn't matter either way

 

I know but its true. Why does what anyone else think matter if you enjoy something? That should be enough.

[EEVILMURRAY]

True, some people may be beyond help but we could use these people to identify the problems that lead to such acts. Why do these people do what they do? Ok, some might be f*cked in the head but that can't be true for everyone.

I'm not sure how they can attempt such a thing. Pure psychiatry?

[Indigo]

A peedo rapes and murders 5 kids, and you consider a painless lethal injection somewhat barbaric?

That's dangerous reasoning. By the same lines I could say Hitler committed genocide and yet you consider a few murders to be barbaric?

 

We shouldn't judge barbarism relatively. Any rape or murder is a terrible and barbaric act, regardless of how it stands relatively to other crimes. It's for that reason (among many) that I'm against capital punishment - murder is wrong, simple as. Yes it may seem in some sense that the murderer deserves to be inflicted with the same fate as they bestowed upon their victims, but while that might satisfy our desire for revenge it doesn't make for a just course of action. Revenge is a shallow form of justice.

 

Practically we can point to the injustice caused by the death penalty - many innocent people murdered for crimes they did not commit. I think the fact that even one innocent person could face death by fate of dodgy yet seemingly compelling evidence is enough reason to discard the idea.

[Shorty]

I think the death penalty works well as a deterrant and I see no reason it shouldn't be used in completely proven cases. However therein lies a problem, because science and forensics is never 100%, even a confession can be the lies of a madman and there's always the possibility of a framing. So whilst I think capital punishment is a just system for criminals that have committed so much worse atrocities, I think it's difficult to make that kind of call.

[Daft]

I'm not sure how they can attempt such a thing. Pure psychiatry?

 

Social issues. I know the case of Tsutomu Miyazaki in Japan revealed massive problems within Japanese society.

 

Your alternative is just to accept that things like these happens and we'll kill them as it happens.

[Indigo]

I think the death penalty works well as a deterrant and I see no reason it shouldn't be used in completely proven cases. However therein lies a problem, because science and forensics is never 100%, even a confession can be the lies of a madman and there's always the possibility of a framing. So whilst I think capital punishment is a just system for criminals that have committed so much worse atrocities, I think it's difficult to make that kind of call.

The whole deterrent argument assumes that potential murderers are going to rationally consider the consequences of their actions. Whereas in reality most murders aren't calculated but rather occur in the heat of the moment, without consideration of consequences.

[EEVILMURRAY]

That's dangerous reasoning. By the same lines I could say Hitler committed genocide and yet you consider a few murders to be barbaric?

You make it sound as if I said what Hitler did wasn't barbaric.

Social issues. I know the case of Tsutomu Miyazaki in Japan revealed massive problems within Japanese society.

 

Your alternative is just to accept that things like these happens and we'll kill them as it happens.

That stuff was revealed because he avoided the death penalty?

[Fierce_LiNk]

Some people may be beyond help. Some people don't feel like, or even want to explain themselves. There isn't much point keeping these people alive if they're going to rot away in prison for the rest of their lives with no chance of parole.

 

At which point do you decide when a person is beyond help?

 

Imo, I don't think anybody is beyond help. For every problem, I believe there is a solution. Part of the problem is that we think shoving people into prison is going to work as a deterent, and it hasn't. But, rather than acknowledging that and finding a different way, more and more people have been flung into prison and as a result, it's costing the tax-payers a hell of a lot of money and prisons are becoming over-crowded.

 

It needs to be addressed: why are these people doing what they do? There's a reason why a child misbehaves in the classroom, infact there's many reasons why they might do so. What causes a person to rape a young girl? What causes a thief to burgle another household? There are reasons, I just don't think we're looking in the right place.

[Emasher]

I'm for it as long as we know for sure they did it. For instance if they were caught red handed.

 

Especially if they're older. Perhaps if they're under 21 or something like that they could still try to reform them. Adults who have murdered someone and are sent to jail for 50 years or so, probably aren't going to lead a productive life anyway.

[EEVILMURRAY]

At which point do you decide when a person is beyond help?

That might be a psychiatry thing.

[Indigo]

You make it sound as if I said what Hitler did wasn't barbaric.

Wasn't my intention at all, apologies if you could took it that way. I was just trying to show how by placing something in relation to another event we can cheaply undermine the perceived significance of it.

[Daft]

We should have the death penalty for under 18s only. Instill fear young. Crazy idea : p

[EEVILMURRAY]

We should have the death penalty for under 18s only. Instill fear young.

Damn right. Catch 'em young.

[Supergrunch]

Of course it's an easy way out. It's a genius way out. As much as I admire your humanitarian attitude, I really don't see the point. HOWEVER! each to their own.

My argument isn't entirely founded on humanitarianism, but is more to do with how much of a penalty the death penalty actually is.

 

Let's say we assume that prisons are unpleasant in some way, which is presumably the theory, even if it arguably isn't the practise. This unpleasantness could stem from guilt, lack of freedom, isolation from family or the real world, etc. Given this axiom, simply being in prison itself is a form of punishment.

 

Now, let's introduce the death penalty. Things get complex here because reasoning depends on belief, but lets consider the possible payoffs in terms of type of punishment:

 

Dying takes you to a:_Better place_Worse place_Indifferent place_You no longer exist

Prisoner lives:__________standard_____standard_____standard_________standard

Prisoner dies:___________lesser_______worse_______standard__________none

 

Let's apply a numerical value to this in terms of degree of punishment, the higher the worse:

 

Dying takes you to a:_Better place_Worse place_Indifferent place_You no longer exist

Prisoner lives:__________0.5__________0.5___________0.5_______________0.5

Prisoner dies:___________-1___________1____________0.5________________0

 

So, for the harshest possible punishment, we need to choose a strategy which will give us the largest punishment. The best thing to do here is to let the prisoner live, as this way one will be sure to have a punishment of 0.5, and though you can't achieve a one of 1, there is no chance of 0 or -1.

 

This analysis suggests the death penalty is a flawed strategy, but of course it is subject to change based on what you believe. As someone who thinks nothing after death is by far the most likely scenario, I am even more sure that the death penalty is a bad idea.

 

There is nevertheless one humanitarian element to my argument, that I mentioned earlier. An authority ordering the death of an individual, even if based on a trial, seems far worse than the actions of the individual themselves, whatever these actions may be.

[Raining_again]

We should have the death penalty for under 18s only. Instill fear young. Crazy idea : p

 

Damn right, none of this asbo business! Nip it in the bud before its too late

[Paj!]

In my head yes, in my heart no.

 

Sounds like a lyric from a bad pop song, but yeah.

[Olympic Gamer]

tl;dr

 

But people are against the death penalty? Jeez, it's the only real threat to stop people, if people got such a high sentance, the world doesnt need them.

[LazyBoy]

Relevant:

 

 

Any I believe there's hope for redemption for everyone.

[The fish]

I'm against it for many a-reason, the two mains on are thus: you can never be 100% sure they are guilty, and you're, y'know, killing someone...

 

From my point of view, causing death is only (just) acceptable in the case of preventing a clear and present threat - someone who has been caught and is in prison is not a threat.

[Zero]

I think Norway is awesome. Did you see how they lived in prison? The fact that Norway has the lowest murder rate and the way their prisoners live must mean something. That video kinda proves what Fierce_LiNk and Supergrunch are saying.

 

I don't think anyone should have authority to kill someone. The death penalty doesn't work in my eyes. Just look at the US.

[Konfucius]

I'm absolutely against the death penalty. No human being should claim the right to kill unless the own survival is at stake.

 

I also think that most people deserve a second chance and those who don't should be locked up for life.

I don't really see the punishment in the death penalty - of course the life is ended but that's it. No time for regret, no time to think about the victims and no time to suffer for what one did.

Besides that the Bible also says one should not kill, however, isn't that specific about mutilation :P

 

For instance let's take rapist. You could give them the choice between going to jail and a castration. Of course that's overly simplified but they wouldn't be harming others anymore.

[DomJcg]

I'm absolutely against the death penalty. No human being should claim the right to kill unless the own survival is at stake.

 

I also think that most people deserve a second chance and those who don't should be locked up for life.

I don't really see the punishment in the death penalty - of course the life is ended but that's it. No time for regret, no time to think about the victims and no time to suffer for what one did.

Besides that the Bible also says one should not kill, however, isn't that specific about mutilation :P

 

For instance let's take rapist. You could give them the choice between going to jail and a castration. Of course that's overly simplified but they wouldn't be harming others anymore.

 

Interesting, well lets say we take away the ability to procreate, castrate as it were, would that remove the so called thrill this person gets from it? the urge? the emotions they love? no, all it does is take away the ability to carry such horrors out. It doesn't get rid of them.

[Blue_Ninja0]

I'm against.

 

Life is of infinite value to the respective living person so killing anyone and having the moral upper hand is impossible unless not killing that person would cause even greater harm.

 

But since we're talking about a penalty, the criminal can just stay in jail forever.

[Oxigen_Waste]

I don't really give a fuck about it being inhumane or not, but it's true that it's not a very severe punishment. Keep them in solitary for life. They get to have food, water and a toilet. Nothing else. No books. No daylight, absolutely nothing. Just all the time in the world to stand there "being". And never give them anyway to kill themselves.

 

Coldplay are good.

 

[Mundi]

I´m against.

Personally I beleive that it should be punishment and rehabilitation

Also rehabilitating society so to speak, I´m no expert on this but I think I´m right that most society have a "criminals will be criminals" mentality and that chips a large part away from the point of adapting people to live in our society.

 

Let´s say that the death penalty is in effect how would that effect crime rates? If it only is for cases of severe crimes then we can exclude most crimes.

Then lets ponder on how many of these severe crimes are planned versus the other crimes (Burglary, kidnapping, destruction of property)

I´m just saying that I don´t think most of these severe crimes happen after long period of planning.

Also when you know you have committed a crime that you will most likely geet the death penalty over wouldn´t you DO ANYTHING to get away