THE ganondorflol Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 the lord is my shepherd I have everything i need He lets me rest in fields of green grass And leads me to quiet pools of fresh water. or: Evolution and athiesm is my shepherd I don't really know what I'm here for or why I think death is the inevitable end But hey, we don't have tails any more so we must be making progress
DCK Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 I don't have a shepherd. I am truly free. Either way, I hate how religious people use an argument like 'Religion paints a nicer picture of the universe, so let's all believe it'. I simply won't believe lies. I also disagree that religion paints a nicer picture, but that's another subject.
DCK Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Then I pity you. Why? (ten character limit etc.)
THE ganondorflol Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Because you have no-one to pray and to talk to when you are lonely. And that is comforting.
killthenet Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Religion only really exists to apply logic to the Universe and to give people comfort in thinking that there is such thing as an eternal after life. Sugar coating everything is the human way, it can sometimes be very difficult to comprehend the size of the Universe and our own insignificance. We want to see a logical explanation for everything but there isn't one, so man invented several logical explanations for everything.
DCK Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Because you have no-one to pray and to talk to when you are lonely. And that is comforting.Talking to myself has as much value. I understand that people have a religion for the reason of comfort, but I don't need that particular comfort. I'd rather know the truth, and be able to verify that truth. In fact, stuff like hell, the devil, sins, Biblical/Quranial restrictions make it a lot less comfortable to me. Religion began as a means to scare people, after all. Let's get back on-topic however, this is not evolution-creationism talk.
THE ganondorflol Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Some guys in my class at uni think that a long time ago there was someone called God. Morons
The fish Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Because you have no-one to pray and to talk to when you are lonely. And that is comforting. Ever heard of "real friends", as apposed to your invisible friend. Oh, and sometimes I use this very forum when friends don't seem the right people to tell. the lord is my shepherdI have everything i need He lets me rest in fields of green grass And leads me to quiet pools of fresh water. How nice and cute. Are little fluffy bunnies thrown in as well? Pitty you forgot to mention the crusades, the fact that the god of the old testament was a warmongering evil basted, the inquisitors, the fact the bible is contradictory and historically inaccurate, and that religion is an evil trap, designed used to prevent people from going out of line, under pain of eternal damnation after death... Anyway, I propose we get this discussion away from religion in general, and back onto evolution vs creationism. Some guys in my class at uni think that a long time ago there was someone called God. Morons Oh, the irony...
THE ganondorflol Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 It is better than being a miserable old git who thinks that death is the end.
The fish Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 It is better than being a miserable old git who thinks that death is the end. Whats wrong with that? At least there is no hell, the nasty side of Christian death...
Supergrunch Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Frankly, this discussion is irrelevant. Unless you generally want to fool youself, then you will believe what you think is true, whether it is more comfortable to believe such a thing or not. And it isn't about creationism anyway.
Kurtle Squad Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 I ahev to say THE Ganondorf, that your argument of "I pity you because you don't believe there is more to life than it shows, and that we only live to live" is amazingly weak.
The Bard Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Yeah, I mean you say you pity us because we don't believe what you believe. I could fucking say I believe that the Earth is flat and then say I pity you for not believing what I believe. What does that accomplish? Nothing, you have to give some reason, I'm sick and tired of people not doing that. Religion, like any other train of human thought has to defend itself in the arena of rational argument. I'm not slagging off religion, it has some decent traits, but try to be more constructive in arguing your point or noone will take you seriously.
Flaight Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 I was watching the BBC news the other day and this guy who supports Intelligent Design came on and said "The world is so complex and yet somehow works out, there has to be more than a chance". I fell of the chair when I realized that is the only basis for his belief in creationism. As I said before, the biggest prob with Creationism is that you have to believe in god to believe it. On the other hand, with Evolutionism, you look at what evidence we have, and we will naturally arrive at evolutionism (so long as you don't deliberately resist it).
Arragaun Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 People only ever argue about this God v Chance issue when they've got nothing better to do.
BlueStar Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 I was watching the BBC news the other day and this guy who supports Intelligent Design came on and said "The world is so complex and yet somehow works out, there has to be more than a chance". I fell of the chair when I realized that is the only basis for his belief in creationism I like this argument because it denies christianity as much as it supports God - If the logic is that something as complex as the earth must have had a creator, than the world's incredibly complex creator himself must have had a creator and *poof* there disappears the one and only all powerful god-who-answers-to-no-one of the bible.
Kurtle Squad Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 This guy obviosuly doesn't realise that the world would have to be complex for us to be how we are today, and that a planet like this is amazingly rare, if we didn't have the environment to become complex and balanced, then we wouldn't have. Therefor we wouldnt have evolved into stupid creatures who Q everything instead of just getting on with it. But then creationismists ignore the fact of an amazingly long amount of time to change and that life is simply a combinaton of chemical reactions and such. By the way...I do feel there is more behind Evolution than the current theory suggests, and although there's a huge amount of time involved, there are some gaps. Just little things such as whiskers...why would a lil hair have first saved the life of a creature for it to stay in the gene pools of thier offspring, and then eventually turn them into measuring devices? This doesn't definately suggest there's a God however, so don't you squarists go filling in a shape with random crap...It simply suggests there's more to evolution and life than the current model shows, and that we're possibly just even more complicated than we realise, which still doesn't definatly suggest their's a God, due to the immense amount of time involved and lack of any evidence of a God which couldn't have been made up, it's simply more likely that there's more to DNA and such than we've found.
Jasper Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 I haven't read all posts, but I'm willing to cast my opinion on it. Creationism is a theory, just as evolution - both were posted by men. The Bible can speak of sins and of stories - but sadly enough, the Bible is writen by men as well. Is God an almighty punisher? No. God doesn't exist. At least, not in something like the bible. My teachers in catholicism told me that I am a positivist and an atheist. I believe in science more than religion. Religion isn't necesarely bad, but it makes people so unaware of the thruth. I believe in evolution, simply because evolution is proven. Somebody in the thread said "they think if we can't see it, it doesn't exist" - but we can see evolution. We did tests with plants, not through natural selection, but we tested it. Evolution works. Survival of the fittest. The question I pose is, if God created us, then why did he come so late in the history of mankind? And if Adam and Eve were the first people ever, the father and mother of all men - then why don't we all look like Adam's and Eve's? We all look different, so why is that? You caan't deny that the way we make babies and children - from DNA to chromosones - is wrong, is it? Science is right about that - then why don't we all have the same combined Adam and Eve DNA? Mutation. Evolution. I like to believe we're only at the doorstep of evolution. It doesn't end here. The problem is, in our eighty years of lifetime, we're not able to see whole species evolve, because four generation only makes insignificant changes to a specie. If God exists, then why doesn't he tell us - personally - that we must live our lives in his rules? No he tells us by a book writen by humans, whom we don't know and of who we are not sure to trust. And he will punish us when we die? If he was a true God, he'd be honest enough with us to tell us what it's for and how to live, personally, so that we cannot be punished for our misdoings in his eyes. All of you creationists, dream on.
DCK Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 By the way...I do feel there is more behind Evolution than the current theory suggests, and although there's a huge amount of time involved, there are some gaps. Just little things such as whiskers...why would a lil hair have first saved the life of a creature for it to stay in the gene pools of thier offspring, and then eventually turn them into measuring devices? I don't think the natural selection process requires 'whiskerless' animals to die out. Just because the whiskers help out in finding food and so on makes the whiskered animals slightly more succesful, making the chance they reproduce (and pass on whiskers to their kids) slightly bigger, and the whiskers become a part of the species, creating a new kind of animal. I wonder if humankind is evolving now at all, because even 'unsuccesful' people have children. 'Survival of the fittest' or 'succesful first' doesn't seem to apply these days, human kind is so succesful and social the natural selection doesn't seem to occur. The evolution model needs some refining though, I agree. Thing is, we can't properly study it as the process takes so long.
The fish Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 I was watching the BBC news the other day and this guy who supports Intelligent Design came on and said "The world is so complex and yet somehow works out, there has to be more than a chance". I fell of the chair when I realized that is the only basis for his belief in creationism. Ironic thing it's not through chance, apart from mutation. Oh, and 4.6 billion years is long enough for almost anything to happen...
thebenmaster Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 I haven't read all the posts on this thread because i got annoyed too quickly. I don't see how anyone with a decent level of scientific knowledge can believe such a so called 'theory' like creationism can have any credibility. Firstly i hate calling it a theory because it is just a literal (or conservative) interpretation of the creation story in the Bible, 'theory' suggests it has some kind of rational basis, but i haven't any knowledge what could be a rational basis in the creation story. Belief in God is a belief in that beyond which can be proven, i.e. irrational. (if anyone wants to criticise that please submit a proof for the existence of God) Now to get all philosophical on your asses. The common idea of God is an omnisceint, omnipotent, benevolent being than which nothing greater can exist. He creates man and the universe (garden of eden if you so believe) in the knowledge that original sin will dam mankind for all eternity, man will fall from eden and be thrust into a world full of evils and suffering. But wait! If God knows he is forcing mankind to endure horrific suffering (war, natural disasters, etc.) how can he be all loving??? Maybe he didnt know what would happen or maybe he couldnt make the world a different, better way. However you look at creationism it seems the creator is either heartless and doesnt care about its creation; wasnt a good enough creator to get rid of evils; or just made the world to see how it panned out. Either way the modern and classical monotheistic idea of God collapses hence leaving creationists all upset because they got it wrong and are just clinging to meaningless and illogical statements.
Rummy Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 I don't think the natural selection process requires 'whiskerless' animals to die out. Just because the whiskers help out in finding food and so on makes the whiskered animals slightly more succesful, making the chance they reproduce (and pass on whiskers to their kids) slightly bigger, and the whiskers become a part of the species, creating a new kind of animal. I wonder if humankind is evolving now at all, because even 'unsuccesful' people have children. 'Survival of the fittest' or 'succesful first' doesn't seem to apply these days, human kind is so succesful and social the natural selection doesn't seem to occur. The evolution model needs some refining though, I agree. Thing is, we can't properly study it as the process takes so long. Considering also that alot of people don't die now(cancer, obesity, diabetes, everything etc) whereas 1000 years ago they would have, I also wonder where the human race is going. Then again, would it be right to not have a health service trying to cure everything?
Kurtle Squad Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 I think so...Self inflicted things at least (Smoker's lung cancer, drinkers liver)
DCK Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 Considering also that alot of people don't die now(cancer, obesity, diabetes, everything etc) whereas 1000 years ago they would have, I also wonder where the human race is going. Then again, would it be right to not have a health service trying to cure everything? It would be cruel, and even fascisting to consider something like that (Hitler tried to evolve his own people that way), but I am wondering if the succesfulness of human kind slows its evolution down. Of course, there's not much need for evolution because of our succesfulness, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe one day other species will catch up with us though, providing we don't eradicate their 'threat'. I can see dolphins and other primates catching up in a matter of a few million years.
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